Let the Joyous news be spread: New Jersey votes yes on Gay civil union!

Carlene · November 4, 2006

Huh? I was referring to the first line in BetsyJanes post. Were you?
I don't believe WE assign God to anything. I think He's pretty much in control of whatever He wants to do.

I'm sorry....I thought you meant the assignment of sexual persuasion. I did read Betsy's post, but there were posts between hers and your response. And I'm easily confused this time of night.

Carlene · November 4, 2006

Actually, I do make this choice everyday. I have women who adore me AND transgendered males who were once females. I love them as humans, but I make a conscious decision not to become sexually involved with them, even though I am a single woman. I still choose to remain heterosexual, despite the choices I have to be different.

I understand that you choose not to have sex with another female, but that's an easy choice when it isn't something you'd LIKE to do in the first place. That's like saying you chose to turn off the garbage disposal before you stuck your hand in it.

gadgetlady · November 4, 2006

I understand that you choose not to have sex with another female, but that's an easy choice when it isn't something you'd LIKE to do in the first place. That's like saying you chose to turn off the garbage disposal before you stuck your hand in it.

I beg to differ, Carlene. There are plenty of individuals who are attracted to members of the same gender and choose not to become sexually involved with them. We all make choices every day. Countless married people make choices not to become sexually involved with persons other than their spouse, no matter how attracted they are.

Granted, the attraction in some individuals is stronger than others -- just like some individuals are more predisposed to have addictive personalities or become alcoholics -- but the choice to have sex, take drugs, drink alcohol or any number of other things is, nevertheless, a choice. You may believe it is a propensity that cannot be overcome; I believe otherwise. And I know people who have both chosen to succumb to it and who have chosen to overcome it.

Sunta · November 4, 2006

I just want to say it makes me so so so sad to think there are people out there who strongly desire to experience same-sex love, but because of their religious beliefs, they haven't. If there is anyone out there like that reading this thread, who really desires to experience same-sex love, but feels they must abstain due to religous reasons, please know my heart goes out to you because your soul will just never be full in the way that it could be, romantically. Yes, I'm sure that God does satisfy the soul in a certain and very profound and powerful way for some people, but in terms of human, romantic, sexual interaction, same-sex love (for those who are Gay or bisexual) fills the soul and spirit like no other kind of interaction.

I feel so bad for people who repress their true feelings because of religious reasons. I know God creates/loves Gay people, and that it's a normal and natural variation of the human sexual animal.

I'm sure this evangelical leader is feeling tremendous pain and hurt in his soul right now, because he is Gay and yet he truly believes that it's a sin to be Gay. It's so sad that I almost feel bad for him (but not quite, since he has greatly influenced legislature in a negative way; he consults with president Bush every week!)

It always seems to me that the strongest advocates against Gay marriage usually turn out to be Gay themselves.

In 100 years when all of this is a memory and Gays are marrying every day, they'll look back and pity those that never lived up to their full potential with a true romantic soul mate.

Carlene · November 4, 2006

I beg to differ, Carlene. There are plenty of individuals who are attracted to members of the same gender and choose not to become sexually involved with them. We all make choices every day. Countless married people make choices not to become sexually involved with persons other than their spouse, no matter how attracted they are.
Granted, the attraction in some individuals is stronger than others -- just like some individuals are more predisposed to have addictive personalities or become alcoholics -- but the choice to have sex, take drugs, drink alcohol or any number of other things is, nevertheless, a choice. You may believe it is a propensity that cannot be overcome; I believe otherwise. And I know people who have both chosen to succumb to it and who have chosen to overcome it.

It's still a LOT easier to choose something you are naturally inclined toward over something that disgusts you. Your logic would deny gay people the pleasure of an intimate relationship, since it is virtually impossible for them to sexually desire a member of the opposite sex.

Their natural, God-given desire to physically love a person of their own gender is not something to be "overcome". It's not dirty. It's their gift, just as hetrosexuality is yours (and mine). And they aren't harming straight people. That's what I don't understand. Homosexuality isn't contagious. Why do people act like it's an epidemic that needs to be contained, or eliminated.

Tired_Old_Man · November 4, 2006

Or the Republicans can win the next election, increase their majority in congress, pass a constitutional amendment against gay marriage and then states can start arresting gay couples who come here as tourists from Canada, Belgium, the Netherlands and Spain. Some states (Blue ones, I'm sure) will allow them to book hotel rooms with single beds, but some other states may arrest these freaks and put them in striped suits in order to fix their state highways.

gadgetlady · November 4, 2006

I never said I wanted to deny anybody anything, that I thought homosexuality was contagious, that I thought gays should be arrested or denied the ability to book a hotel room, or any other of your inflammatory accusations. I simply said that people with homosexual feelings can choose to act on them or not act on them. Don't put words in my mouth.

There is a difference between not supporting gay marriage and believing that people who choose homosexuality should be demeaned, condemned, or otherwise mistreated. Don't equate adversity towards redefining marriage with a hatred of homosexuals or homosexuality.

To those of you on this board who are gay, please know that you are not hated, at least not by me. While we may find ourselves on opposite ends of the gay marriage issue (or we may not!), please know that I don't judge you or believe that it's OK to force you to live your life differently.

HunnyBun · November 4, 2006

I beg to differ, Carlene. There are plenty of individuals who are attracted to members of the same gender and choose not to become sexually involved with them. We all make choices every day. Countless married people make choices not to become sexually involved with persons other than their spouse, no matter how attracted they are.
Granted, the attraction in some individuals is stronger than others -- just like some individuals are more predisposed to have addictive personalities or become alcoholics -- but the choice to have sex, take drugs, drink alcohol or any number of other things is, nevertheless, a choice. You may believe it is a propensity that cannot be overcome; I believe otherwise. And I know people who have both chosen to succumb to it and who have chosen to overcome it.

I don't understand why should a gay person choose not to be with someone of the same sex? I think everyone is entitled to find a partner that completes them and makes them happy. If a HOMOSEXUAL is not attracted to the opposite sex, should they just be alone for ever?

What if someone told you that it was a terrible sin to be heterosexual? Would you be happy never being kissed, touched, or made love to by a man?

Very few people can turn off their sexuality, even priests can't do it. If it was so easy, there would be no sex crime, no priests molesting small boys, no fathers raping their daughters, and no men buying hookers. Sexuality is a very strong drive, sometimes uncontrollable. I am not saying it is an excuse, because logic and morality should always overcome simple desire, but if it's two consenting adults, why not? Why stop myself from my natural desire and instinct and suffer? I can just be who I am and live a life not deprived of sexual fulfillment.

HunnyBun · November 4, 2006

gadgetlady, I hope you don't think I am putting words in your mouth, just expressing an opinion. I do have a question though, how do you know there are plenty of people who are homosexual and choose not to act on it? How do you know it can be overcome? Could you overcome being attracted to men?

gadgetlady · November 4, 2006

how do you know there are plenty of people who are homosexual and choose not to act on it?

Extrapolation from personal friends, acquaintances, etc.

How do you know it can be overcome?

Plenty have. Many of them are public about it. I also know people who have overcome being attracted sexually to anybody (people who had had relationships earlier in their lives, whether hetero- or homosexual, who later chose a different path for their lives that included no sexual relationships).

We are not animals defined by our desires. Otherwise we could not speak out against pedophiles, serial killers, or those involved in beastiality -- as it could easily be argued that their actions are simply the result of their uncontrollable desires. Don't put words in my mouth again here. I am not comparing homosexuals to any of these other categories; I'm simply saying we are not the sum of our desires but rather the sum of our choices.

Could you overcome being attracted to men?

Before I was married, I was attracted to many men. Since I've been married, I have overcome being attracted to any man except my husband. I am now only physically attracted to my husband. Honestly. Without exception. So I believe the answer is yes.

Lisa G. · November 4, 2006

This country was founded on the laws of the Bible. The constitution is based on religious beliefs. If we followed what Jesus told us to do, then there would not be a problem with this situation.And I have to agree with Carol. It's not what I think, it's what God thinks. He says it is an abomination. Marriage makes a man and a woman one flesh in the eyes of God. And, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm not sorry for what I believe.

Tired_Old_Man · November 4, 2006

This country was founded on the laws of the Bible. The constitution is based on religious beliefs. If we followed what Jesus told us to do, then there would not be a problem with this situation.And I have to agree with Carol. It's not what I think, it's what God thinks. He says it is an abomination. Marriage makes a man and a woman one flesh in the eyes of God. And, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm not sorry for what I believe.

HE also says that eating a Ham & cheese sandwich is an abomination.

Many people are luckier than I am.

I only talk to God or Jesus, depending on who I want to pray to. When I was a Roman Catholic, I used to pray to The Virgin Mary, Saint Christopher, etc.

But the lucky people are the ones that Jesus talks back to. I guess He decided that I was not good enough to enter his Kingdom, so he doesn't talk to me.

Many people hear Jesus talking in their head.

One claims to have heard Jesus say: "Invade Iraq, don't read your father's book on why you shouldn't invade Iraq, our mission is accomplished in Iraq, don't cut and run, but do cut food stamp programs and cut Medicaid programs, don't let anyone on death row off because we are both positive they are guilty, give the money changers; I mean the richest Americans tax cuts while the middle-class Christians go without medical coverage, persecute gays for political advantage and protect those little 16 cell embryos in petri dishes, for they are more precious that people who breath air..."

It is wonderful to know that you are always right because you hear Jesus talking in your head.

Tired_Old_Man · November 4, 2006

I never said I wanted to deny anybody anything, that I thought homosexuality was contagious, that I thought gays should be arrested or denied the ability to book a hotel room, or any other of your inflammatory accusations. I simply said that people with homosexual feelings can choose to act on them or not act on them. Don't put words in my mouth.

Dear Gadgetlady, since you made reference to hotel rooms which I talked about in the post just prior to yours, I wonder if the "Don't put words in my mouth" statement id directed towards me. If it is, please be assured that I was not thinking of either you, any other LBT board member or any other person in the world as I wrote my last post.

If it is just a coicidence that you mentioned some of what I had just wrote about, but you were not writing to me, well as Gilda Radna used to say, "Never mind".

Betsyjane · November 4, 2006

Remember that line in American President? How can you support someone who loves America but hates Americans? Freedom and diversity are what we are supposed to allow and revel in.

Most of the rest of the world is becoming more open and we are now closing in and getting so narrow minded. That's really too bad. I still want to be a superpower...along with India, China, Russia, and southeast Asia, all of whom are starting to open up.

Alexandra · November 4, 2006

This country was founded on the laws of the Bible. The constitution is based on religious beliefs. If we followed what Jesus told us to do, then there would not be a problem with this situation.And I have to agree with Carol. It's not what I think, it's what God thinks. He says it is an abomination. Marriage makes a man and a woman one flesh in the eyes of God. And, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I'm not sorry for what I believe.

I just read this excerpt from Barack Obama's new book, and it seems relevant to this discussion:

The story of Abraham and Isaac offers a simple but powerful example. According to the Bible, Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his "only son, Isaac, whom you love," as a burnt offering. Without argument, Abraham takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded.

Of course, we know the happy ending--God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute. Abraham has passed God's test of devotion. He becomes a model of fidelity to God, and his great faith is rewarded through future generations. And yet it is fair to say that if any of us saw a 21st century Abraham raising the knife on the roof of his apartment building, we would call the police; we would wrestle him down; even if we saw him lower the knife at the last minute, we would expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away and charge Abraham with child abuse. We would do so because God doesn't reveal Himself or His angels to all of us in a single moment. We do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that are possible for all of us to know,

understanding that a part of what we know to be true--as individuals or communities of faith--

will be true for us alone

.

Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope (2006)

The point, LisaG and others, is that what you think GOD believes should just not have any bearing on what WE believe as a common people. Civil laws in this country are not and have never been based on "God's word" any more than they are based on Buddha's word or Satan's word, for that matter. We have found other bases for writing our laws, and one of them that's been a growing part of our foundation is the principle of nondiscrimination. Opening up the concept of civil unions to any two adults is just another step on that road, and I am confident we will take it before my children are adults.