Let the Joyous news be spread: New Jersey votes yes on Gay civil union!

[JasminesMystic 0]

So would you support what is in the bible guiding the laws for the US?

who's bible??, not everyone sings out of the same hymn book

and which part of the bible, beacause as you know most of it was not written by God with infinite wisdom, but by men with a limited view of the big picture

It's so hard to find love in the world, why cheat 2 consenting adults of that blessing when they find it, regardless of gender???

[Carlene 12]

I know I said I'm done, but can't resist.

You all can make this as complicated as you want and in the end it is all based on faith. As for my religion I don't know if I have one, as long as you go by the Bible, (meaning the one that was instructed by God) then there is no right or wrong answer. How in the world can anything be bad if you go by what is written in the Bible? Of course we are talking about the New Testament. I know if anyone has actually read the New Testament out of the Bible that was instructed by God then there would be no evil in anything, polictics or otherwise. Some can throw all kinds of kinks into this subject and make it as complex as possible but just think of how you would like to see the world as you live here. In other words no lying, stealing, hate, cheating, abuse, etc....

If you can not find the ten commandments in your bible the one instructed by God, then you are not going to understand any of this anyway. If you do not know what God we are talking about then I am sorry.

Homosexuality is not a choice, I do already know that. Neither is being Fat, but here is something we can all understand, we are all here trying to change it. Some of us were born that way and some of us not, but in anyway you look at it we are trying to change. And that is all God asks you to do. Try to make yourself a better more descent person.

Love is in all of us, some just more than others. Please try to find it in your heart to understand that living through the word of God is not a religion, take religion out of it and read the New Testament (the one instructed by God.) Hopefully if just one person does this and trys to live this way, meaning through the word of God, then all is not lost.

Love and Peace to you all.

If you cite only the New Testament, you won't find the Ten Commandments either. They are part of the Old Testament. The New Testament begins with the gospel of Matthew - long after the days of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

I'm not trying to complicate anything. I'm just pointing out that you can't have it both ways. If you throw out the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments get thrown out with it.

Many fundamentalists (and I'm not suggesting that you are one of them) like to pick phrases out of the Bible willy nilly, and quote them to reinforce their own particular brand of Christianity. A little from the Old Testament, a bit from the new....kind of like a scripture buffet. I think that's totally unfair...and illogical.

Of course I would like to see a world without cheating, lying, abuse, etc. Unfortunately, that world does not exist this side of heaven. Nor could it, by God's own design. We all missed the boat on paradise (damn that Eve!). So now we have to content ourselves with doing the best we can, and that means taking personal responsibility not to cheat, lie, steal, etc. And praying for others, including those who fall short of God's grace.

May the peace and love and fellowship of Christ be with you all.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

#1. The Old Testament says that man laying with man is an abomination.

#2. It also says eating pork is an abomination.

#3. Christians have told me that the New Testament over-rode the Old Testament.

If #3 is true then neither #1 or #2 are valid rules to live by.

Also, the Ten commandments are no longer valid either, since they are not in the New Testament.

I sure hope #3 is true because the Old Testament contains these words of wisdom:

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Deuteronomy 15:12-18: "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him."

Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV)

Leviticus 25:48-53: "After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him."

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."

Exodus 21:26-27 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

Exodus 21:8: "If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."

Leviticus 19:20-22: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him."

Leviticus 25:39: "And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubilee: And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return."

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

Deuteronomy 20:14"But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself"

After reading those, we realize that maidservant and manservant are words for slave so if you accept the 10th commandment to be either:

Exodus 20:17"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

Deuteronomy 5:21"Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbor's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbor.

Then you are accepting slavery if you accept the 10 commandments as Deuteronomy 5:1-21 and Exodus 20:1-17.

The New Testament is not quite so harsh on slaves:

1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Galatians 3:28:"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Yes, the Bible is a very interesting, especially if you actually read it.

[lisah25 3]

who's bible??, not everyone sings out of the same hymn book

and which part of the bible, beacause as you know most of it was not written by God with infinite wisdom, but by men with a limited view of the big picture

It's so hard to find love in the world, why cheat 2 consenting adults of that blessing when they find it, regardless of gender???

For that post, I was referring the the Bible Carol was, but your point is very valid.

What I don't get is why people use their beliefs that homosexuality is a sin to declare there should be no gay marriage/civil unions even sometimes. If you believe it is a sin, then don't be in a gay relationship. It doesn't seem complicated at all to me.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

For that post, I was referring the the Bible Carol was, but your point is very valid.

What I don't get is why people use their beliefs that homosexuality is a sin to declare there should be no gay marriage/civil unions even sometimes. If you believe it is a sin, then don't be in a gay relationship. It doesn't seem complicated at all to me.

And I promise not to have an abortion either.

[Carlene 12]

If you believe it is a sin, then don't be in a gay relationship. It doesn't seem complicated at all to me.

Praise the Lord! There is intelligent life on earth after all.

[kayleesmom 0]

Carol134- I have a hard time listening to anything you have to say about God or Christianity in general with that big yellow banana shaking it's tits in every one of your posts. I'm sure God is thrilled to be associated w/ that.

[lisah25 3]

See how simple it can be?

OK, on abortion I can see pushing for laws if one deeply believes it is murder. I still am firmly pro-choice though!

I found Leviticus 17:11 interesting in discussions of BC and religion, or even stem cell research.

"For the life of a creature is in the blood"

Taken literally, this would read to mean that life begins when the embreyo is infused with blood, around 18 days or so(Yes, this was from a CSI episode)

On gay couples, I don't see how it hurts society, so can't make any case for it.

[lisah25 3]

Praise the Lord! There is intelligent life on earth after all.

LOL - OK, I'll take that.

And I am a committed Christian!

[Sunta 5]

Ok, so let me see if I have this right:

If I want to live by the bible and follow the principles the bible espouses right alongside of the thing about "if a man goes to bed with another man it's an abomination", then I think I will start living my life by these biblical principles:

It is ok to purchase slaves and keep them as your personal property

It is ok to beat my slaves with a rod, because they are my "money" (property)

If I purchase my own brother as a slave, it's ok as long as I let him go free eventually.

If someone is proven to be a witch, I should execute her

If I work on Sunday, I should be executed

If I curse my parents, I should be executed

Anyone with a flat nose must not come near the alter of God

Anyone who curses should be executed

If someone worships a different god, they should be executed

Proper thing to do if you find a dead body = cut the head off a cow and wash your hands in it's blood and say you did not kill the person.

If i do something to make God angry, he might just force me to kill and then boil, my son

Or he might cut off my arm and then kill my children

Or he might burn me with fire

If I'm tempted to committ adultery, it would be a great idea to cut my hands off

And blind myself

If a child is not circumcised, his parents and community should abandon him

When a woman has her period, no one should look at her

These all sound like EXCELLENT ideas! I think I'm going to start implementing them right away! And if anyone questions me and asks WHY I'm doing these things, I will look at them and say "Because it's right there in the BIBLE!"

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Ok, so let me see if I have this right:

If I want to live by the bible and follow the principles the bible espouses right alongside of the thing about "if a man goes to bed with another man it's an abomination", then I think I will start living my life by these biblical principles:

It is ok to purchase slaves and keep them as your personal property

It is ok to beat my slaves with a rod, because they are my "money" (property)

If I purchase my own brother as a slave, it's ok as long as I let him go free eventually.

If someone is proven to be a witch, I should execute her

If I work on Sunday, I should be executed

If I curse my parents, I should be executed

Anyone with a flat nose must not come near the alter of God

Anyone who curses should be executed

If someone worships a different god, they should be executed

Proper thing to do if you find a dead body = cut the head off a cow and wash your hands in it's blood and say you did not kill the person.

If i do something to make God angry, he might just force me to kill and then boil, my son

Or he might cut off my arm and then kill my children

Or he might burn me with fire

If I'm tempted to committ adultery, it would be a great idea to cut my hands off

And blind myself

If a child is not circumcised, his parents and community should abandon him

When a woman has her period, no one should look at her

These all sound like EXCELLENT ideas! I think I'm going to start implementing them right away! And if anyone questions me and asks WHY I'm doing these things, I will look at them and say "Because it's right there in the BIBLE!"

And a lot of it is in the Holy Qur'an also.

No wonder there is a war going on.

We have Muslim Fundamentalists using a religious book to justify killing in the name of their God, and we have Christian Fundamentalists using a religious book to justify killing in the name of the same God.

It is so easy to do as long as each group can pick and choose which verses (or Suras) they like. Isn't it a shame that both groups missed the whole point that their holy books were trying to make?

Love

Compassion

Forgiveness

The Golden Rule

[carol134 0]

Carol134- I have a hard time listening to anything you have to say about God or Christianity in general with that big yellow banana shaking it's tits in every one of your posts. I'm sure God is thrilled to be associated w/ that.

No one said you had to be boring to be a follower of God...And you are not listening to me anyway your listening to Christ. I have nothing in this other than what the Bible states! (the one God instructed)

Again I have absolutely nothing to do with hate for gays, truth be known I have a few friends that are, unfortunately they know what the Bible says and as alot of other people do choose to ignore it anyway, or justify it some how, like being born that way, and you know what maybe the Lord will allow that to be an excuse who knows? Bad thing though you won't know till the time comes then it will be to late. You know when I started this I knew there would be people throwing stones so to speak and that's okay. Just try not to let your judgements get in the way of what the truth is. Maybe I am getting confusing but I do know that if you read the Bible and believe me I have, then it will all be clear. (Hopefully)

Tired Old Man: I am so glad you straightened me out on the 10 Commands being in the Old Testament, I always wondered where that was. Thanks a bunch. We must of had the same bible, think?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Actually I didn't say that the 10 Commandments are in the Old Testament. I said that Deuteronomy and Exudos, which other people said contain the 10 commandments are in the Old Testament. And I also said that the 10 commandments are not in the New Testament.

There are verses in Deuteronomy and Exodus that many people assume are the 10 commanments, but they are numbered 1 through 10.

Exodus 20:1-17

1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the Water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Deuteronomy 5:1-21

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,

6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17 Thou shalt not kill.

18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19 Neither shalt thou steal.

20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour’s wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour’s house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Doesn't Deuteronomy 5:3 say that the commandments (be they 10 or 15 or whatever) don't apply to American citizens living in the 21st century?

[carol134 0]

Ten Commands cited repeated, Exodus 20:3-17; Deuteronomy 5:7-21

rewritten, Exodus 34:1

Contemporized version, Deuteronomy 5:6-22

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Ten Commands cited repeated, Exodus 20:3-17; Deuteronomy 5:7-21

rewritten, Exodus 34:1

Contemporized version, Deuteronomy 5:6-22

Any way you write it, there still are more than 10 verses, which means that it is left to an interpretor to decide where each commandment would start and stop if there were 10.

Face it. The people of that era needed something; like the number of fingers on their hands, in order to keep tract of the rules.