Another Phony E-mail Refuted

[Carlene 12]

Carlene, please do not think that I am accusing you or anyone in your family, past or present, but churches have been known to facilitate annulments for those with the ability to benefit the poor-box (or collection plate).

The Catholic church had one of its biggest scandals when they were selling guaranteed entry into Heaven (indulgence) for a fee which I believed was finally outlawed in 1562 at the council of Trent .

I believe most protestants also believe that communion is body of Christ. I have seen Roman Catholics take Communion at a Protestant church and I have seen Protestants take Communion at a Roman Catholic church. I would assume that the Protestants would have been violating Roman Catholic doctrine, but not the other way around, because Communion can not be taken without Confession.

:clap2: BTW, I admire you for the fortitude that you shown considering all the adversity that you have been through. :clap2:

The 16th century was a loooooong time ago. I was speaking of more recent practices - like in my lifetime, for example. And there was that nasty business, the Spanish Inquisition, but we don't do that any more, either.

Protestants do not believe that they are consuming the actual body and blood of Christ when they receive Communion. Not any I know, at least. They believe it is a symbolic act. But let's hear from some real, practicing Protestants....anyone up for this question?

Catholics are prohibited from participating in the religious rituals of other denominations. We can attend weddings, funerals, etc but we aren't supposed to take Communion, "witness" or, God forbid, "get saved". There are probably some who do it, but we aren't supposed to. I taught CCD for about a hundred years and that question came up frequently.

As for not taking Communion without Confession, boy, are you out of the loop! That went out with Vatican II. We are required to confess mortal sin once a year and venial sin not at all.

While we are on the subject, let me mention that Catholics do not worship the Blessed Virgin (we venerate her, and there is a difference), nor do we worship statues. We do not believe that unbaptized babies go to hell, or that priests, by themselves, can forgive sins. You cannot confess on Saturday morning and start all over Saturday night with a clean slate. Yes, we think we are the original Christian church, but that's because we are. You can't argue with history. To anyone who thinks being a Catholic is easy, you are wrong. It's very, very hard to be a good Catholic. But I think it's hard to be a good Christian - period.

It's true that I have had my share of bad stuff happen. I have buried both my parents, two husbands, and a grandchild. All that has strengthened my faith, without which I would never have survived, and taught me what is really important and what is just window dressing. And most of it is just window dressing, believe me.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

As for money... the brother mentioned above and his DW moved to Lubbock in the 70s when she was preggers with her first born. They were new to town and she had some complications with her pregnancy and so they did not go to church without fail every week right away and did not get envelopes to use every week like they normally would have. After Jeff was born, they called to make arrangements for his christening. They were told that the church would not consider a christening since the parents had not been donating regularly to the church coffers. They protested and said that they had been donating every time they attended church, but that since she had been confined to her bed off and on, it was not every week. The priest said that he had no way of knowing if they had contributed or attended church since he had no record of their attendance and they had not signed up for tithing envelopes when they arrived in Lubbock. The answer continued to be no.

I guess I was wrong, the Roman Catholic church did not stop selling entrance into Heaven in 1562. :faint:

[Carlene 12]

I don't think you exaggerated your memories or the in-laws story, as they related it to you.

My second husband's annulment was in 1979. My current husband's (two) annulments were granted in 2002. I was not the person seeking the annulment, so my involvement was pretty minimal. I gathered the paperwork, was about all. There are some standard grounds for annulment and if the case meets the criteria for one of those, it goes much more quickly (and it's cheaper).

I do know that sometimes people have to pay for the hearing, advocate's time, etc but my point was that you cannot buy an annulment - meaning that you are guaranteed to receive one if you "donate" $1,000 to the Church. It just does not happen. Maybe in the 16th century as TOM pointed out, but not today.

Most parishes will not baptize a child unless the parents have registered with the parish and attended baptism classes. Those are generally started when the mom is about 6 months pregnant. If they are started in another parish, they can be finished up in the "new" one. You just need a letter from the priest. I have heard of people who were denied baptism for their child because they could not document parish affiliation, but not because they hadn't donated money. (You would have to register in the parish, by the way, to get the personalized envelopes.)

I didn't have my first child baptized until he was 17 months old. (See earlier post wherein I explained that I was mad at the Church. Like they noticed...LOL) I had to register in the parish, take baptism classes, AND go to Confession. Bummer.

My second child was baptized at 6 weeks. I went to the classes like a good girl and everything went smoothly.

My third and fourth children....well, let's just say they were old enough to walk and talk. And they still made me go to those damn classes. I was the only one in there who wasn't either pregnant or the mother/godmother of an infant. Serves me right, I guess. I keep challenging the rules and they keep enforcing them. Will I never learn?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

As for not taking Communion without Confession, boy, are you out of the loop! That went out with Vatican II. We are required to confess mortal sin once a year and venial sin not at all.

Yes, I am out of the loop. As a person who has seen organized religion up close and personal including watching members of the clergy fight over my mother's body and having a Roman Catholic priest condemn my mother to Hell because a Pentecostal minister prayed over her coffin, I can say that none of the dogma sits right with me.

One week, a few years ago, one Pentecostal family member died and then a RC family member died. The wakes and funeral were separated by a few days, so I got to attend both funerals and about 6 wake sessions. What a difference. One had ministers coming in and talking about sister Santa (yes, her real name) while the other had a group of nuns and about 10 octogenarians come in a say the Rosaries non-stop for two hours.

One denomination said personal things in their prayer about my great-aunt and the other never mentioned my cousin's name, but just repeated the same prayers over and over. Not knowing God one on one (and admitting it) unlike the Pentecostals, I do not know which was more beneficial to the deceased, but I wonder if every prayer in the world said non-stop over a body could get an evil person into the Kingdom of Heaven.

My ex-coworker who is a Mormon, has a computer program for looking up his genealogy so that he can retroactively get his non-Mormon ancestors into Heaven through prayer.

I have a hope and belief that God is a lot more intelligent than we give him credit for. I believe that following all the rules of a man-created church denomination will do less to gain salvation than a pure heart.

One of the rulings that came out of the "Council of Trent" was that the Protestant idea that claiming salvation through a personal relationship with Christ is not sufficient to gain eternal salvation, but it also takes good works. Too many Protestants have told me that they have a personal relationship with Christ, but then go on violating everything Jesus stood for and preached about. Yes, I know we all are sinners, but committed an occasional sin and living a life totally dedicated to the opposite of REAL Christian values are two different things.

Thinking or "knowing" that you are saved by the “one and only” possible way to be save or "knowing" that you are in the “one and only” denomination that will gain salvation will not mean Beans if when you get to the gates, God says "you followed the wrong rules" or “you only claimed to follow the right rules, but did not”.

[Carlene 12]

I guess I was wrong, the Roman Catholic church did not stop selling entrance into Heaven in 1562. :faint:

TOM, that was a cheap shot and very much uncalled for. I will be leaving this thread now, with dignity (I hope). So sorry I can't stick around for the holier-than-thou pissing contest. Please let me know who wins, though.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

TOM, that was a cheap shot and very much uncalled for. I will be leaving this thread now, with dignity (I hope). So sorry I can't stick around for the holier-than-thou pissing contest. Please let me know who wins, though.

It was not meant as a cheap shot. By denying a child Baptism because the parents did not donate (or the church didn't think they donated), they are in effect blocking the child's entrance to Heaven.

There was nothing personal intended. While I may have quoted you in some posts, I was not speaking directly to you (or about you or your beliefs), but speaking my beliefs.

[BJean 16]

TOM: I'm surprised that Carlene took your comment personally. One of the reasons that the Priest's comments were so hurtful at the time (1970s), when he refused christening to my S & BIL's baby, was HIS emphasis on the fact that they had not contributed money to the church. At that time, although I am not positive about this, I thought that the belief of Catholics was that until their child was christened, he/she was not cleansed of sin and therefore bound for hell if he/she died prior to christening or baptism.

Another point to ponder was the discussion about communion and what it represents in different churches. I remember that if you were Catholic and had sinned (and this was different in the 70s from the current rules today), and had not gone to confession that you could not take communion. When they ran short on priests (that's my take on it) and they decided that you didn't have to confess about certain sins, venial (?) you could just ask God for forgiveness yourself and go ahead and take communion.

Maybe that's the reason so many Catholics today are taking communion and practicing birth control, among other things, when it isn't officially acceptable according the Pope. The Pope (Vatican) does make the rules, girls and boys, and if your Catholic Church isn't adhering to the rules, it gets super-confusing for someone who's trying to understand all about the importance of communion and other sacraments. Of course some of you may have read about my experience with annulment. In Virginia it was absolute - no way. In the same year in Arizona, they provided the help we needed.

The Catholic Church has many many things about it that I love. Other things confuse me. But that is true with almost any organized religion I have any knowledge of.

And as for entrance into heaven... all you have to do is be "saved" and be baptised in the Southern Baptist Church and you're in like flynn.

In fact, if you don't become "saved" and get baptised in the Baptist Church, you just aren't getting into heaven. Case closed as far as they are concerned. And btw, once "saved" in the Baptist Church, always "saved".

And when comparing Catholic to Baptist, the Catholics recognize all the sacraments of other churches, whereas the Baptists believe that in all things, it's their way or the highway. And don't you be takin' communion if you aren't a "saved" baptised Southern Baptist, because they are every bit as strict on that as any other church. In our Baptist Church back then, if you were even visiting from another Southern Baptist Church, you did not take communion without permission from the pastor.

At least these are some of the things I learned back in the l960s when I became a member. As I'm learning here right now, there's not much telling what's gone on since I stopped supporting all of them.

[gailannr 1]

Whoops! I found my way back to Rants and Raves! I think it should be re-named Rants and Raves about anything except POLITICS, RELIGION AND BIRTH CONTROL. That way we won't hurt so many feelings and make so many enemies!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Whoops! I found my way back to Rants and Raves! I think it should be re-named Rants and Raves about anything except POLITICS, RELIGION AND BIRTH CONTROL. That way we won't hurt so many feelings and make so many enemies!

We could have a "Rave and Rant" section for Ostriches.

[gailannr 1]

TOM, Was your comment some sort of subtle hint? I don't feel like an ostrich and after researching a little, I know I'm not one!

In popular mythology, the ostrich is famous for hiding its head in the sand at the first sign of danger. The Roman writer Pliny the Elder is noted for his descriptions of the ostrich in his Naturalis Historia, where he describes the ostrich and the fact that it hides its head in a bush. There have been no recorded observations of this behavior. A common counter-argument is that a species that displayed this behavior would not likely survive very long. The myth may have resulted from the fact that, from a distance, when ostriches feed they appear to be burying their head in the sand because they deliberately swallow sand and pebbles to help grind up their food. Burying their heads in sand will in fact suffocate the ostrich. When lying down and hiding from predators, the birds are known to lay their head and neck flat on the ground, making them appear as a mound of earth from a distance. This even works for the males, as they hold their wings and tail low so that the heat haze of the hot, dry air that often occurs in their habitat aids in making them appear as a nondescript dark lump. When threatened, ostriches run away, but they can also seriously injure with kicks from their powerful legs.

[BJean 16]

gailannr: Good Ostrich lesson. See there, like I said before, this is a fun place to read and learn.

[gailannr 1]

Thank you, to tell the truth I thought it was true they stuck their heads in the sand til now. I did learn something:)

[coltonwade 27]

My daughter had her tubes tied in 2000 (in Texas) and my DIL had hers tied in Ohio in 1995. They both said that their husbands did not have to give consent. Maybe

the world is becoming a more female friendly place?????

I think it depends on the doc. I wanted my tubes tied at age 25 in 2001 in Texas . The doctor i had told me he would not do it. I asked him why , He said " My age requirement is 25, which you meet, however I do not feel you have been married long enough ( I had been married a yr ) and I feel you might change your mind , Since my husband didnt agree with my getting my tubes tied he REALLY wouldnt do it ." So my doctor took MY CHOICE AWAY FROM ME. I was 25 and had 2 children. But when I asked him " Would YOU Snip my husband he said Well YEAH " .

Mindy

[coltonwade 27]

Ok I debated about weather to share this or not . But I usually do not hesitate about this so i'll go for it here. There seemed to be only 1 or 2 other woman brave enough to fess up to an abortion This is MY Story . Think what you want :

At age 16 I got pregnant , Because I have PCOS I honestly DId not know I was pregnant until I was 22 weeks pregnant. It was quite normal for me to not have periods for 4-6 months at a time. So when I found out I was pregnant it was a shock to find out how far along I was. The "Sperm Donor" as I call him Thought I tried to trap him into marrying me because I was so far along , I literally had 1-2 weeks to decide if i wanted an abortion or not . HIS words were " Have an abortion i'll pay for it , keep it its not mine and your on your own" . I chose to keep my son , I lived with my parents, finished high school , worked full time as I was going to high school . Had it not been for my parents I would not have been able to make it. Fast forward 3 yrs . Met a guy , Was on birth control, We lived together for a yr I was 19-20 yrs old and found out I was pregnant Again , OMG WTF am i going to do . THere is NO WAY Im going to be 19-20 yrs old and have another baby . I DID Take precations to avoid this from happening. My boyfriend and I were ni the processs of breaking up . Why you might ask ? OH Yeah I forgot, He JUST GOT DONE Beating the SHIT out of me and put me in the hospital THAT"S How and where i found out I was pregnant. SO I decided to have an abortion, I couldnt do it alone with 2 kids , and I was NOT Going to raise this one with an abusive father. BTW The first guy TOOK OFF . Now let me explain something .... An abortion is NOT AN Easy thing to do , At least for me . For those who think its an "Easy fix " You couldnt be more wrong. I had my abortion on the Friday of my son's birthday party, that sunday I was at his birthday party in pain , NO ONE knew I what i had done expect the father of the baby . Dont think that doesnt bother me EVERY SINGLE Year, it does. BUT I know for my son's sake it was the best thing . I KNOW I did what was best for me and my son . NOW That being said , DO I Agree with abortion as birth control ABSOLUTLY NOT , do I agree in late term abortions HELL NO . Am I Pro Choice YES. I am now married with another son , I have a 14 yr old and 5 yr old. Im 31 yrs old. I have a son that is almost half my age. My life was rough enough as it was, trying to date as a teenager was not fun or easy with ONE Child let alone 2, it would have been nearly impossible. Money has always been tight. For the first time THIS YR I paid for and gave my son a birthday party 100% on my own with out ANY Help from my parents. after 14 yrs . BTW I have been on goverment assistance ONCE to get my son's eye surgery paid for by meidcaid because my insurance at the time wouldnt pay for it , I had to go on it . I am married to a wonderful man that loves my son as his own . OH Yeah the "Sperm donor" Died in a car accident 6 yrs ago . He was a drug addict , he essentially killed himself with drugs . MY son would have had no chance with him as a father. the father of the child I aborted has been divorced 3 times and arrested 3 times for abuse. I KNOW I made the right choice , Would I Do it again ? Probably not . Was it easy choice to make ? NO , BUT I had that CHOICE . Does it Bother me ? Sure it does sometimes. Does it "Haunt " Me ? NO . People who have abortions are not cold hearted "Baby Killers' as those who might think we are , because that's what gets YELLED At us as we walk into a clinic. We are not MURDERS, we are not EVIL , Most of the time we are simply people who unknowingly and probably unwillingly made a mistake ( even those who tried to be responsible and protect ourselves) we ARE HUMAN , we DO Make mistakes , Dont judge until you are in our shoes. I had a friend Yell up and DOWN she would NEVER EVER have an abortion , guess where I took her ....

Mindy

[BJean 16]

Mindy: You are very courageous for telling your story. I don't know why so many people say that women use abortion as birth control. I doubt very seriously that women can either afford or want to go through a surgical procedure as a form of birth control. I think that most women have an abortion because of circumstances very similar to yours and the others we have read about here.

It had to be really rough to have a child when you were that young and depend on your parents for so many years. But you have come through it and you have managed to go on to marry a good man and make a good home for yourself and your sons. Beautiful outcome. Congratulations. BJ