Another Phony E-mail Refuted

[lisah25 3]

So who did you wear your uniform for, people who only believe the same things you believe??

Butting in her a bit, that's not what she said. The point, at least as I read it, wasn't about agreeing with her or not, but rather about those who want everyone to believe as they do, and live that way.

One of my very best friends had an abortion a few years ago. Yep, she cheated on her husband and had to "take care of it" for fear he would find out it wasn't his. I let her know my feelings about it, but we remained friends and I was the shoulder she cried on for months after the "procedure". It haunted her, she couldn't look at a baby without bursting into tears, well she cried daily anyway. We have since drifted apart so I don't know how she is anymore, but I'm wondering how people can tell themselves that is ok. I was careless so the baby has to die. In my opinion, abortion has become just another form of birth control. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, if the mom is at risk, etc., and I don't dispute that there are times when it may be medically necessary.

I think sometimes, it has become a back-up BC.

I do know people though who were using BC, and it failed. None is 100%. Personally, I think that if you aren't ready to deal with an unplanned pregnancy, you shouldn't be having sex, but I realize that's my belief, not everyones.

I feel back for your friend, but what a horrible reason to have an abortion. I'd be surprised if it didn't haunt her.

[GeezerSue 7]

I wore my uniform to defend our CONSTITUTION...which, interestingly enough, protects YOUR right to make decisions in YOUR life, but NOT in--for example--MY life.

A baby is a baby when it's born. Until then, it's a fetus. (Well, assuming we get past the zygote and embryo stages.)

I'm sorry that your friend was not emotionally equipped to be able to handle the consequences of--apparently--several of her actions. But abortion has been going on FOREVER (in the early days of Christianity, the Catholic Church had guidelines as to how far into a pregnancy an abortion could occur...different guideline for male and female fetuses because they thought they had THAT resolved) and most women don't get nuts. Of course, if she was hanging with people who kept telling her she was a baby-killer, that might have had SOME bearing on her mental health. Maybe it's good that she moved on.

BTW, this is a good time to mention genealogy. Look back in your family history. If--prior to commercially available birth control--you didn't have a great-grandma popping out new babies every three years (with time outs for wars and all), it MIGHT be time to give some real grown-up consideration as to how that was possible.

My grandmothers were born at the dawn of the 20th century. One of them had a baby every two years for 24 years. The other had two kids. Guess which one was "upwardly mobile" and had access to doctors who found it necessary to do a "scraping" (that's what they called it) every now and again!!

The reality is that abortions have ALWAYS happened and will always happen...we can make them safe or not.

After all, what it boils down to for me is...who decides? WHO DECIDES what's best for me? Ultimately, legally or illegally, I will. People can punish me afterward, but I'll make my own decisions.

[GeezerSue 7]

No one is anti-life...no one is pro-abortion. Abortion on demand, however, is anti-responsibility.

Why does a premature baby, born at 24 weeks, have rights and protection under the law, but an unborn fetus, also 24 weeks old, have none? That just defies logic.

Because once born, it's a baby, not a fetus.

I don't know why some people find that point so difficult. It's a legal thing...not a moral thing.

If someone's chuch says it's a kid from the time the daddy gets a stiffy, so be it. But that's for THEIR personal moral beliefs, not legal issues to be shoved down everyone else's belief system.

[BJean 16]

Carlene: You somehow attributed other posts to me that I did not write. And btw, just because someone isn't calling another person names, doesn't necessarily mean they are being civil.

I have not called anyone names at any time at LBT. I have never accused anyone of believing that there is humor surrounding abortion, war, or any other method of killing. I don't know why you've decided I am the one who is posting things you don't agree with and subsequently spent a lot of time rebutting, but I would much prefer that when you direct a criticism to me personally here, that you criticize what I've actually posted instead of what someone else has posted.

I also am not sure why you think I was "preaching to the choir" because practically everything you mentioned had not been posted by me. Again, if you disagree with me, please use whatever I have said to make your point - no problem. But what you've done is make it appear that I am the one who has said lots of stuff that I did not. I've been pretty careful about not saying anything inflammatory or insulting. So with all due respect, refrain from using my name when you're trying to tell someone else off.

[Carlene 12]

But abortion has been going on FOREVER (in the early days of Christianity, the Catholic Church had guidelines as to how far into a pregnancy an abortion could occur...different guideline for male and female fetuses because they thought they had THAT resolved) and most women don't get nuts.

And your source for this statement would be????

I don't know how early those "early days" might have been, but I quote here from the Didache (the teaching of the twelve apostles), AD 70:

"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child".

[missy4gordon 0]

A baby is a baby when it's born. Until then, it's a fetus. (Well, assuming we get past the zygote and embryo stages.)

Well, I happen to believe it is a baby inside or out. If we were to agree with "it is not a baby until it is born" then shouldn't we be outraged that abortions aren't performed when the FETUS is 8 or 9 months along, since it is not a baby yet......???

I'm sorry that your friend was not emotionally equipped to be able to handle the consequences of--apparently--several of her actions. But abortion has been going on FOREVER (in the early days of Christianity, the Catholic Church had guidelines as to how far into a pregnancy an abortion could occur...different guideline for male and female fetuses because they thought they had THAT resolved) and most women don't get nuts. Of course, if she was hanging with people who kept telling her she was a baby-killer, that might have had SOME bearing on her mental health. Maybe it's good that she moved on.

I didn't tell her she was a baby killer, and we didn't grow apart due to this, we worked together and when we both changed jobs, we lost touch, a couple of years after all this happened. When she found out she was pregnant, she asked us our advice, I didn't lie, I told her I don't believe in it. How do you know that "most women don't get nuts"???? Are you inside their heads?

BTW, this is a good time to mention genealogy. Look back in your family history. If--prior to commercially available birth control--you didn't have a great-grandma popping out new babies every three years (with time outs for wars and all), it MIGHT be time to give some real grown-up consideration as to how that was possible.

My grandmothers were born at the dawn of the 20th century. One of them had a baby every two years for 24 years. The other had two kids. Guess which one was "upwardly mobile" and had access to doctors who found it necessary to do a "scraping" (that's what they called it) every now and again!!

Congratulations that your grandmother was able to get "scraped". You must be very proud. As for my grandmothers, I have no idea what they did or didn't do to not get pregnant, I have never had the inclination to ask anybody.

After all, what it boils down to for me is...who decides? WHO DECIDES what's best for me? Ultimately, legally or illegally, I will. People can punish me afterward, but I'll make my own decisions.

I finally agree with you here.......

[kmwwmk 0]

I do not understand this thread? What is it about?

What phony e-mail was refuted?

Thanks for any clarification.

[kmwwmk 0]

how is it lap band related?

[missy4gordon 0]

how is it lap band related?

It's not lap band related but we are people who have or have had or are thinking of having or are going to have lap bands and have other things to talk about as well.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

how is it lap band related?

It doesn't have to be Lap-Band related.

This section and the lounge are for other than Lap-Band related items.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I do not understand this thread? What is it about?

What phony e-mail was refuted?

Thanks for any clarification.

Go to page #1, Post #1

That's where it starts.

[missy4gordon 0]

I guess we went a liiiittttle off topic. Sorry 'bout that!

[GeezerSue 7]

And your source for this statement would be????

I don't know how early those "early days" might have been, but I quote here from the Didache (the teaching of the twelve apostles), AD 70:

"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child".

The Catholic church has been on a political see-saw on this topic for about two thousand years. Subsequent to the Didache...(cut and pasted quote):

The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape and contained a soul: "Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed." (7:3)

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) returned to the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of "delayed ensoulment". He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 1 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).

In the 17th century, the concept of "simultaneous animation." gained acceptance within the medical and church communities. 2 This is the belief that an embryo acquires a soul at the time of conception, not at 40 or 80 days into gestation as the church had previously taught.

Pope Pius IX dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus" in 1869. Canon law was revised in 1917 and 1983 to refer simply to "the fetus." The church penalty for abortions at any stage of pregnancy was, and remains, excommunication.

A Papal decree in 1884 prohibited craniotomies. This is an operation that kills the fetus by dismantling its skull. The procedure was occasionally needed in order to save the life of the pregnant woman. In 1886, a second decree extended the prohibition to all operations that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life. The effects of these decrees would often be the death of both the woman and the fetus. These rules are still in place today, although they are ignored by most North American physicians -- both Catholic and non-Catholic.

The Roman Catholic church has occasionally "held funeral and burial services" for aborted fetuses. 3 However, this has not been the general rule. Embryos and pre-viable fetus have not usually been considered full persons to the extent of being worthy of a formal requiem mass or a formal burial service.

more here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

And there's:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/abortion.html

Interestingly enough, in this country, Catholic women constitute a disproportionately large percentage of women having abortions. If people REALLY want to "do God's work" perhaps they could stop condeming their sisters.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape and contained a soul: "Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed." (7:3)

Right there is the out for allowing abortions.

"For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed."

In this or another thread, I contended that a God (who is as intelligent and "all-knowing" as is made out to be by the fervent believers), would not place a soul in a fetus if he knew it was going to be aborted. And of course God knows it. He knows everything; past present and future.

[Carlene 12]

Carlene: You somehow attributed other posts to me that I did not write. And btw, just because someone isn't calling another person names, doesn't necessarily mean they are being civil.

I have not called anyone names at any time at LBT. I have never accused anyone of believing that there is humor surrounding abortion, war, or any other method of killing. I don't know why you've decided I am the one who is posting things you don't agree with and subsequently spent a lot of time rebutting, but I would much prefer that when you direct a criticism to me personally here, that you criticize what I've actually posted instead of what someone else has posted.

I also am not sure why you think I was "preaching to the choir" because practically everything you mentioned had not been posted by me. Again, if you disagree with me, please use whatever I have said to make your point - no problem. But what you've done is make it appear that I am the one who has said lots of stuff that I did not. I've been pretty careful about not saying anything inflammatory or insulting. So with all due respect, refrain from using my name when you're trying to tell someone else off.

BJ, your point is well taken. I should have read your post more carefully and responded to the original "no sense of humor" post, which was Geezer's, not yours. I apologize for not picking up on that. Your post (below) was simply an I'm-in-agreement message.

(And like GeezerSue said, (I'm paraphrasing) pro-lifers have no sense of humor and they think they know what's best for all of us.)

Also, it was absolutely not you who was guilty of name-calling, and while I did not accuse you of it, I did mention name-calling in my response, and I should have made it abundantly clear that it had nothing to do with you. I apologize if you felt maligned by association. That was certainly not my intention.

Finally, I did not set out to criticize anyone's point of view - only to disagree - and there is a huge difference. An eloquent argument is a beautiful thing, but a nasty squabble is just....well, a nasty squabble. We are all friends here and I hope we don't lose sight of that.