Poll - Democrat or Republican?

[Carlene 12]

It is inevitably the poor and under-educated woman who, upon finding herself pregnant, is going to also find herself up a creek without a paddle if she is living in the wrong state. She must have the child and yet she will get inadequate pre- and post-natal care. The child will grow up in an environment where he or she is undernourished and has no access to a quality education

Actually, poor women have fewer abortions, per statistics, than their more well-to-do counterparts. Abortion has virtually no impact on child abuse or neglect. In order to actually see a correlation you would have to force low income women to have abortions. In other words, make abortion the penalty for being poor. (Not that I think you are suggesting such a thing. I'm just saying that's the only way to actually link the two.)

[green 6]

Good point, Carlene, and thanks.

[faybie 0]

Abortion has virtually no impact on child abuse or neglect.

Interesting statement. Coming from a poor family myself and being the only family member to graduate high school much less college, I have an interesting perspective that many at my education level may or may not be subjected to. All of my uneducated, underprivileged cousins have a minimum of 3 illegitimate children starting motherhood primarily at the age of 13. Each child is extra money per month from the government. Were the children fed, bathed, educated or receiving adequate medical care? Unfortunately, no. Were they neglected and abused? Unfortunately, yes. Do I think they should have been aborted instead of malnourished and abused? Well, no.....as I was once one of those children myself. Would an abortion have spared the children the abuse and neglect? Probably, yes.

[nursekathy2u 0]

I do believe that life begins at conception. I am a mother. I know absolutely that unborn babies are simply human beings that have not yet seen the light of day.

On the other hand, I have never been unmarried and pregnant, or impregnated by rape or incest, or too poor to give a child a decent upbringing. I have never carried a child in my belly that I did not want. That I did not plan, yes....but I was never willing to do away with them.

I hate the idea of women using abortion as retroactive birth control. I hate the thought of unborn babies being thrown away like so much garbage because they were conceived at an inopportune moment in their mothers' lives. But I have to let those women make their own choices and deal with whatever consequences follow. I have to....because to do otherwise says that I think I am morally superior, that my way - my church - is the only "right" way, and that if you don't agree with me, you are going to hell. I do NOT believe that, and I HATE it when other people do that to me.

Carlene.. I feel the same way you do.. my only difference is that I have never been pregnant. I dont know what it is like to have a life inside of me that depends on me for survival. Someone described it earlier as the mother being a "host" and the baby not surviving without its "host". How clinical..

My sister's S-I-L has had 5 abortions, is pregnant again and wants a 6th abortion. She has an 8 yr old daughter whom she loves in her own strange way, however, she has said before that she should have aborted her like the father suggested. Then she wouldn't have to "fight" with the childs father about custody, etc. She also has a 14 yr old son whom she treated terribly and she finally sent him to live at a "boys farm" in south Texas. He has been there 2 yrs and is as happy as he has ever been. This woman sickens me to say the least. But I support the right to choose. I DO NOT want someone to tell me what I can and can't do in relation to my body. Abortion is a tricky issue.. If my 14 yr old neice was raped I would want her (and her parents) to have the right to choose whether to carry the child or not. (I DO NOT like the fact that a minor can have an abortion without parental consent.) However, on the other hand.. someone like this woman I was talking about.. I wish they would force sterilization on her if she aborts this sixth child.. Hell, I will even hold her sorry ass down while they do it.

[BJean 16]

Green: You definitely make some good points about health care in Canada - and maybe that's why most of the scare tactics used here in the U.S. seemed to cite Great Britain's problems when they're trying to keep Americans down here from thinking that socialized medicine could be an answer to our horrendous insurance-controlled health care. (We lived in Montreal for two years, and enjoyed the very good medical care we received.)

My LB doctor dropped out of network because he became so frustrated with insurance companies making medical decisions for his patients. He is a highly skilled laprascopic surgeon and his services don't come cheap. But he can get it because of the care he provides. He has even helped get a hospital opened nearby that provides surgery for well-patients only. There are no sick people in that hospital; also a very attractive benefit to people who are having any type of prosthesis like LB or knee replacement surgery.

I think we all know how risky it is for a patient like us to contract an infection. I was willing to pay $20,000 out of pocket to ensure that I received the best possible chance at a successful outcome from my LB (and hiatal hernia) surgery, my hospital stay and my after care. My insurance company refuses to pay any part of the LB procedure. Of course they have been paying for my doctor and medicines and lab work for high blood pressure, high cholesterol, depression and probably would have eventually been adding the condition of diabetes to that mix.

I don't know how many people remember when Clinton was elected, that one of his primary goals was to get Hillary involved (because of her experience and intelligence) in making some changes in our health care system. Well, the good old boys in Washington made a mockery of those attempts and scared the heck out of the majority of us by insisting that the Clintons were out to turn our system into one of socialized medicine, God forbid!

Over and over the spin doctors ranted about how people had to wait years for any kind of surgery or cancer treatments in England. So here we are so many years later... with our personal health care decisions not being made so much by our doctors, but more often being made by cold-hearted, profit minded insurance companies.

I think this thread has been so lively and had so many good participants because we are all tired of the heavily partisan media reporting we are hit in the face with every day. It seems that we're looking for a healthy exchange of ideas and experiences so we can learn the truth about how people are being affected by politics in this country.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I just got back from dinner with the group that I belong to and our guest; Dr Davidson Loehr, author of the book "America, Fascism and God".

Dr. Loehr is a minister in the Unitarian Universalist Church and holds PHD's in Theology, Philosophy of Religion and Philosophy of Science. The 15 members of my group had a rambling discussion on many of the same things that we have been discussing in this thread.

Religion and Politics have regrettably become so inter-linked that freedom may be an inescapable victim as the world is drawn into a more primitive state.

If anyone is in Stuart Florida tomorrow, please feel free to come to the Seminar entitled:

"The State of the Union: A Spiritual Perspective"

It will be hosted by

The Unitarian Universalist Church of Stuart,

21 SE Central Parkway

Stuart, Florida 34994

The Seminar will start at 9am and is expected to end by 3pm

[Carlene 12]

Interesting statement. Coming from a poor family myself and being the only family member to graduate high school much less college, I have an interesting perspective that many at my education level may or may not be subjected to. All of my uneducated, underprivileged cousins have a minimum of 3 illegitimate children starting motherhood primarily at the age of 13. Each child is extra money per month from the government. Were the children fed, bathed, educated or receiving adequate medical care? Unfortunately, no. Were they neglected and abused? Unfortunately, yes. Do I think they should have been aborted instead of malnourished and abused? Well, no.....as I was once one of those children myself. Would an abortion have spared the children the abuse and neglect? Probably, yes.

My point was exactly the same as yours...abortions do not prevent child abuse because "bad" (abusive) parents do not have abortions, as a rule.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

My point was exactly the same as yours...abortions do not prevent child abuse because "bad" (abusive) parents do not have abortions, as a rule.

I am a Pro-Choice Liberal, but if I had my wishes, there would never have to be another abortion.

I don't think that abortion used as retroactive birth control is an efficient method of birth control. Families should be planned. And of course rape and incest are criminal, but abortion only destroys one aspect of the trauma and does not make the victim whole.

To me, Pro-Choice is not pro-abortion, but it is realization that no man (or women for that matter) has a right to come between a pregnant women and her doctor, nor the right to tell a women what to do to protect herself and her body.

[Carlene 12]

My sister's S-I-L has had 5 abortions, is pregnant again and wants a 6th abortion.

I suppose that legally, this woman is entitled to have as many abortions as she wants, but it's a sad, sad thing. Kind of like drowning litter after litter of baby kittens because it's easier than having your cat spayed.

There are just some sorry ass people in this world, and that's the truth.

[bitteroldhag 0]

I am a major Demcrat because I am a college professor and have been trained in critical thinking. We understand fallacies like either you are with us or you are a terrorist. But truthfully, I always like an oppositition party in the House and Senate so they are unable to pass useless laws. Currently, the U.S. is pro-torture. This amazes me since I'm almost 60 years old and the U.S. has never been pro-torture. I don't think I live in the country I grew up in.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I am a major Demcrat because I am a college professor and have been trained in critical thinking. We understand fallacies like either you are with us or you are a terrorist. But truthfully, I always like an oppositition party in the House and Senate so they are unable to pass useless laws. Currently, the U.S. is pro-torture. This amazes me since I'm almost 60 years old and the U.S. has never been pro-torture. I don't think I live in the country I grew up in.

Ask anyone but a "true believer" if "in the year 2000 would you have thought that in 2006 the US government would be kidnapping people and sending them to prisons in places like Syria, would be arresting people and holding them without filing charges, without allowing them to see a lawyer or to notify their family, would be tapping phones with no warrants and interception e-mail without court order, and that the big issue of the day would be 'how much torture is too much' and 'who decides'?”

They would have said "You are crazy".

The reply, "911 made things different," is phony. Just about every major country in the world has had attacks which make the attacks of 911 pale in comparison. The US government is full of power hungry criminals who are eager to help the cry-baby American public give away everything that has been fought for in the history of this nation in exchange for a little bit of security.

The reasons that we see all these bumper stickers like (Red, White and Blue) "These colors don't run" is because we are cowards trying to convince ourselves how brave we are.

Bill Maher who used to host "Politically Correct" on ABC lost his show when a few days after 911, one of his guests referred to the 911 plane hijackers as cowards. Bill told him that it takes a lot more courage to fly a plane into a building that to sit on a ship and push a button that launches a cruise missile from 200 miles away from the target.

Bill was not gaging morality or right vs wrong. When we can't see the difference between courage and morality, we wind up in the state we are in now. About the only two differences between us and the terrorists now are #1 "they are them" and "we are us" and #2 "we are good" and "they are evil", but both difference will be said from either side because we have lowered ourselves to their level. Oh, there is a third difference, "we do it high tech".

This is not BuSh's fault. It is our fault for being such cowards that we looked the other way as long as daddy would protect us. Instead of looking to daddy for protection, we should have been looked into our history books and we would have seen another daddy or father figure, the fuhrer of Germany of 1933. We are approaching the same place, but there is no one to stop us.

[green 6]

Well, you are all wonderful people. I was afraid that I might receive some harsh criticism for airing my views because I am a foreigner. I would like to thank you all. Though I am very much pro-choice stories of women who use abortion as their main form of birth control shock and appall me. It is indeed like choosing to drown litter after litter of kittens instead of getting the cat spayed. In fact I wonder if a woman who functions in this fashion doesn't have a couple of screws loose and should see a shrink. On the other hand, one has to wonder what the fate of those children would be if they were born and being raised by a woman who would abort 'em all. In an ideal world every child would be a wanted and cherished child.

As you have gathered, I am very much for universal medicare. I think that it is the kindest thing that government can do for its citizens, all of them but especially the middle class and the working poor. Healthcare is cheaper, too, as the middlemen, the businessmen that is, are cut out of the equations. Statistics show that the United States pays roughly $2000 more per year per capita in healthcare than the countries which have socialized healthcare programmes. There is, however, a looming problem with all social programmes in countries where the birth rates are dropping: this comprises all of western Europe and Canada. The United States doesn't seem to have this problem. Your population is continuing to grow. In countries like ours we are facing an ageing and therefore expensive population and not enough young workers to keep the treasury topped up. People are expensive when they are young - education - and when they are old - medical expenses and old age pensions. To some extent we rely on immigrants to help us out of this problem. We take the brightest and the best educated away from third world countries where they need them. And the Province of Quebec offers money and tax breaks to its residents to have more children; this doesn't seem to be working though. Quebec's birthrate is very low.... This is how demographics affect social programmes. I thought you might be interested.

[green 6]

Oh, I am feeling kinda wordy this A.M. I want to say that I agree with TOM. The events of 9/11 were truly horrifying for Americans and for Canadians, too. We lost some of our citizens that day. We also housed some of your homeward bound citizens and aircraft north of the border when all flights were shut down; we were pleased to be able to help out in any way we could.

Europe has been subjected to acts of terrorism for a long, long time. The response over there is very much different. Rather than going off to invade a country, an expensive undertaking, they begin to do police work in order to find out who committed the atrocities, and once this is found out, they work to bring the perpetrators down. In the case of the acts of 9/11 the perpetrator was the al Qaeda network, the mastermind was bin Laden, and that was who the State should have targeted. Isn't this the kind of work the CIA used to do in its quiet fashion? Assassinations off American soil, busting up foreign networks which are hostile to perceived American interests, etc? Or maybe I've been reading too many thrillers.

[libra 13]

Ask anyone but a "true believer" if "in the year 2000 would you have thought that in 2006 the US government would be kidnapping people and sending them to prisons in places like Syria, would be arresting people and holding them without filing charges, without allowing them to see a lawyer or to notify their family, would be tapping phones with no warrants and interception e-mail without court order, and that the big issue of the day would be 'how much torture is too much' and 'who decides'?”

They would have said "You are crazy".

The reply, "911 made things different," is phony. Just about every major country in the world has had attacks which make the attacks of 911 pale in comparison. The US government is full of power hungry criminals who are eager to help the cry-baby American public give away everything that has been fought for in the history of this nation in exchange for a little bit of security.

The reasons that we see all these bumper stickers like (Red, White and Blue) "These colors don't run" is because we are cowards trying to convince ourselves how brave we are.

Bill Maher who used to host "Politically Correct" on ABC lost his show when a few days after 911, one of his guests referred to the 911 plane hijackers as cowards. Bill told him that it takes a lot more courage to fly a plane into a building that to sit on a ship and push a button that launches a cruise missile from 200 miles away from the target.

Bill was not gaging morality or right vs wrong. When we can't see the difference between courage and morality, we wind up in the state we are in now. About the only two differences between us and the terrorists now are #1 "they are them" and "we are us" and #2 "we are good" and "they are evil", but both difference will be said from either side because we have lowered ourselves to their level. Oh, there is a third difference, "we do it high tech".

This is not BuSh's fault. It is our fault for being such cowards that we looked the other way as long as daddy would protect us. Instead of looking to daddy for protection, we should have been looked into our history books and we would have seen another daddy or father figure, the fuhrer of Germany of 1933. We are approaching the same place, but there is no one to stop us.

TOM, you are so right and give us so much information. Thank you for that. I agree that Americans need to start standing up and being counted. We are letting our elected officials take away our rights and civil liberties all under the guise of protecting us. Excuse my lack of eloquence here, but it's a load of crap!!! We are no safer than before and now...we are no longer free. We need to stop being afraid before the govenment takes away all of our rights.

[KariK 0]

In history have we ever declared war on a group that does not have its own country? What country does Al Quaeda own?

Im so confused how can we win this war? Have they even told us what winning means? We got Saddam out, still we didn't win. We got elections going.. still we didn't win. We will never win because we aren't fighting for anything for us.. we're fighting for Iraqies, so therefor the only winners will be either iraqies or al Quada. The only other possible winners are the people who have a vested interest and ownership in oil or in war itself. Hmm who has a vested interest in war and oil?? First name rymes with 'brick', last name rymes with 'rainy'.