USA should take a page out of Australia's handbook!

[Goannabanda 0]

The kids (Bindi & Bob) were both with his wife in Tas. The late news showed them flying back to Qld. A post-mortem will be done in Cairns tomorrow, before Steve's body will be taken to Gold Coast to be reunited with his family tomorrow night. So sad.

[DonnaB 3]

Here's the news article that was posted on AOL this morning:

Stingray Kills 'Crocodile Hunter'

Steve Irwin Dies While Filming in Australia

By BRIAN CASSEY, AP

CAIRNS, Australia (Sept. 4) -- Steve Irwin, the hugely popular Australian television personality and conservationist known as the "Crocodile Hunter," was killed Monday by a stingray while filming off the Great Barrier Reef. He was 44.

Irwin was at Batt Reef, off the remote coast of northeastern Queensland state, shooting a segment for a series called "Ocean's Deadliest" when he swam too close to one of the animals, which have a poisonous barb on their tails, his friend and colleague John Stainton said.

"He came on top of the stingray and the stingray's barb went up and into his chest and put a hole into his heart," said Stainton, who was on board Irwin's boat at the time.

Crew members aboard the boat, Croc One, called emergency services in the nearest city, Cairns, and administered CPR as they rushed the boat to nearby Low Isle to meet a rescue helicopter. Medical staff pronounced Irwin dead when they arrived a short time later, Stainton said.

Irwin was famous for his enthusiasm for wildlife and his catchword "Crikey!" in his television program "Crocodile Hunter." First broadcast in Australia in 1992, the program was picked up by the Discovery network, catapulting Irwin to international celebrity.

He rode his image into a feature film, 2002's "The Crocodile Hunters: Collision Course" and developed the wildlife park that his parents opened, Australia Zoo, into a major tourist attraction.

"The world has lost a great wildlife icon, a passionate conservationist and one of the proudest dads on the planet," Stainton told reporters in Cairns. "He died doing what he loved best and left this world in a happy and peaceful state of mind. He would have said, 'Crocs Rule!'"

Prime Minister John Howard, who hand-picked Irwin to attend a gala barbecue to honor President Bush when he visited in 2003, said he was "shocked and distressed at Steve Irwin's sudden, untimely and freakish death."

"It's a huge loss to Australia," Howard told reporters. "He was a wonderful character. He was a passionate environmentalist. He brought joy and entertainment and excitement to millions of people."

Irwin, who made a trademark of hovering dangerously close to untethered crocodiles and leaping on their backs, spoke in rapid-fire bursts with a thick Australian accent and was almost never seen without his uniform of khaki shorts and shirt and heavy boots.

Wild animal expert Jack Hanna, who frequently appears on TV with his subjects, offered praise for Irwin.

"Steve was one of these guys, we thought of him as invincible," Hanna, director emeritus of the Columbus (Ohio) Zoo and Aquarium, told ABC's "Good Morning America" Monday.

"The guy was incredible. His knowledge was incredible," Hanna said. "Some people that are doing this stuff are actors and that type of thing, but Steve was truly a zoologist, so to speak, a person who knew what he was doing. Yes, he did things a lot of people wouldn't do. I think he knew what he was doing."

Irwin's ebullience was infectious and Australian officials sought him out for photo opportunities and to promote Australia internationally.

His public image was dented, however, in 2004 when he caused an uproar by holding his infant son in one arm while feeding large crocodiles inside a zoo pen. Irwin claimed at the time there was no danger to the child, and authorities declined to charge Irwin with violating safety regulations.

Later that year, he was accused of getting too close to penguins, a seal and humpback whales in Antarctica while making a documentary. Irwin denied any wrongdoing, and an Australian Environment Department investigation recommended no action be taken against him.

Stingrays have a serrated, toxin-loaded barb, or spine, on the top of their tail. The barb, which can be up to 10 inches long, flexes if a ray is frightened. Stings usually occur to people when they step on or swim too close to a ray and can be excruciatingly painful but are rarely fatal, said University of Queensland marine neuroscientist Shaun Collin.

Collin said he suspected Irwin died because the barb pierced under his ribcage and directly into his heart.

"It was extraordinarily bad luck. It's not easy to get spined by a stingray and to be killed by one is very rare," Collin said.

News of Irwin's death spread quickly, and tributes flowed from all quarters of society.

At Australia Zoo at Beerwah, south Queensland, floral tributes were dropped at the entrance, where a huge fake crocodile gapes. Drivers honked their horns as they passed.

"Steve, from all God's creatures, thank you. Rest in peace," was written on a card with a bouquet of native flowers.

"We're all very shocked. I don't know what the zoo will do without him. He's done so much for us, the environment and it's a big loss," said Paula Kelly, a local resident and volunteer at the zoo, after dropping off a wreath at the gate.

Stainton said Irwin's American-born wife Terri, from Eugene, Ore., had been informed of his death, and had told their daughter Bindi Sue, 8, and son Bob, who will turn 3 in December.

The couple met when she went on vacation in Australia in 1991 and visited Irwin's Australia Zoo; they were married six months later. Sometimes referred to as the "Crocodile Huntress," she costarred on her husband's television show and in his 2002 movie.

[cashley 0]

To Dawg & T.O.M....

I'm fascinated with your knowledge on the subjects of religion and as a curious Christian (whom doesn't always believe what the establishment teaches) would like to "read" more....

I've always felt that Christians are taught a falsehood in the fact we are the only chosen ones.... My god (the Christian god) made a promise to Abraham; he also made a promise to the Moses and the Jews... If I believe in my god then I can only assume he would honor his promise to me as a believer in Jesus but also to the people whom came before. The God I believe in wouldn't break those promises just because he made a new covenant..... I can't help but believe that he has a special place for all of us. The Muslins, the Jews & the Christians.

No one taught me that it's just in my heart. Anyway, I'm interested in learning more about Muslins. I don't have the patience’s to read the Qur'an but would like to know more...

Do either of you have book recommendations? I would like to know more about why they treat women as they do. Why the women wear burkas, why they have so many extremist etc... It's something that I just wanta ask "Why"....

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

The covenant that God made with Abraham to give control of Canaan to Abraham's offspring was to both the Jews and Muslims, because Abraham had two sons, one which became the leader of the Jews and one the leader of Islam.

So each of these two religious groups is equally entitled.

Many times you will hear that someone is anti semitic when they say something negative about a Jew or anything Jewish, but I think you will find most of the people who are now know as Jews are only part Jewish but mostly European. That includes most of the present inhabitants of Israel. The original Jews, Abraham and his sons Isaac and Ismael were Semites, but while the descendants of Isaac have been deluded by white European blood, by and large the Muslims are much more purer in bloodline and therefor the true Semites. So actually, being anti-Islam might just as easily (if not more so) be anti-semitic.

However, what I have written above is pure interpretation. Most people agree that the Bible and the Qur'an both state that God made a covenant with Abraham. Since both books are talking about the same God and same Abraham, then Allah and the God of the Christians and Jews are the same being.

The problem, of course comes about with Jesus. Is Jesus God? Is Jesus the son of God? Is God Jesus?

The Jews are willing to follow the teachings of Moses that were sent down by God/Allah and God/Allah says that all those that follow the teachings that God/Allah sent through Moses will gain eternal life.

The Muslims are willing to follow the teachings of Mohammad that were sent down by God/Allah and God/Allah says that all those that follow the teachings that God/Allah sent through Mohammad will gain eternal life.

But while some Christians "KNOW" that they must follow the teachings of Jesus that were sent down by God/Allah and God/Allah says that all those that follow the teachings that God/Allah sent through Jesus will gain eternal life, other Christians "KNOW" that they must follow the teachings of Jesus that were sent down by God/Allah, they must also believe that Jesus is God/Allah and that they must have a personal relationship with Jesus and they also "KNOW" that only they will gain eternal life.

In the Qur'an, it states that Jews, Muslims and Christians have equal rights to eternal life. However, God/Allah says the Jesus is neither a deity nor his son. God/Allah says that Jesus, Moses, Noah, Mohammad were each prophets sent to a different people at a different time to teach the word of God/Allah and each people, if they follow the teachings of their prophet will gain eternal life.

So the Jews accept Moses as a prophet, the Muslims accept Mohammad as a prophet, but most Christians “KNOW” that must believe that Jesus was more than a prophet, but also God and the son of God.

Some people ask me if I believe the bible was divinely inspired.

Let's stipulate that the bible was divinely inspired.

But is it not fair to ask if it was divinely translated?

But is it not fair to ask if it was divinely transcribed?

But is it not fair to ask if it was divinely interpreted?

But is it not fair to ask if the choice of which books to include was divinely inspired?

How come the Jewish version of what the Christians call the "Old Testament", has sections that are not in the "Old Testament"?

How come the Christian's "Old Testament" has sections that are not in the Jewish version of the "Old Testament"?

How come Constantine, originally a Pagan emperor of Rome hand-picked a commission to decide what sections went into the bible and what didn't go into the bible?

How come at least two English queens and two English kings made revisions in what has become the Christian Bible?

Did you know that the Roman Catholics, the Protestants and the Jews each have different versions of the 10 Commandments?

I am tired of writing. I hope I got this right. I didn't feel like doing a bunch of googles, so it is out of my head and I think I am going out of my mind.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Do either of you have book recommendations? I would like to know more about why they treat women as they do. Why the women wear burkas, why they have so many extremist etc... It's something that I just wanta ask "Why"....

I would start by reading your Bible, both Old and New Testaments. You may find that women are not treated that well in the Bible either.

The Qur'an gives women many rights, but just like the Bible, women must be submissive to males in their family. The Burkas are an exaggeration of tradition.

Christians have exaggeration of tradition also. What we now look at as Santa Claus is from a 1931 Coca Cola commercial. Christians Celebrate Christmas on December 25, but there is much evidence that Jesus was born on April 17 in the year 6 bc. The date of December 25th was decided by the originally Pagan emperor of Rome Constantine, who after decreeing that all Romans would convert to Christianity (Roman Catholic) needed to stop the worship of a pagan god on December 25th, so he figured, let them Celebrate, but just change the reason for the celebration.

I know that Santa Claus and the date of Christmas are not as important as the slave-like conditions of women in Afghanistan and other Muslim countries, but I was just showing how misreading and tradition can distort the content of Holy Books. I doubt if you can find in the Bible any justification for "The inquisition" or "The Salem Witch Hunt".

Just a week or two ago a 81 year old women who had taught Bible study for generations was fired by a young priest because he didn't want her teaching males.

[Morsaille 4]

Also, Cashley, if you are looking for motivation to do the research try Beliefnet http://beliefnet.com . I haven't been there in a long time, but I really enjoyed the debates, groups, and discussions. Just being able to really see what the various religions teach is enlightening.

Several years ago it inspired me to continue my education.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

When I went to college in the early 1960's, my school offered a course in "Comparative Religions".

I would imagine that sitting in a "Comparative Religions" class today would be Holy Hell considering how polarized our society is.

I took Economics 101 as a freshman. The professor had 2 books on the required reading list. One was a typical Keynesian textbook and the other by maverick economist Milton Freeman. The ideas on economic theories espoused in the books were as different as black and white.

Also, in English 101, our professor had us write a 1000 word argumentative paper on any topic and point of view we wanted. After I did my (pre-google) research and I turned in my outline, it came back marked passing, with a note; "Now write your paper from the opposite point of view".

Those two courses thought me that there are always two (maybe many more) sides to every story. I learned to think of the counter-punch before throwing by (verbal) punch. The problem is that when you have 10 people in a room and each of them is of a different religion, but each "KNOWS" that his religion is the one and only correct religion, there is no more discourse.

As I tried to show a few posts back, one can believe that the Bible was written by people divinely inspired by God, but that does not prove that everything (or anything) your Minister, Priest, Rabbi, Imam or Ayatollah tells you is true.

TOM

PS: “You” and “your” in the above are used in the rhetorical sense and are not aimed at any member.

[jojo41 0]

DonnaB....in regards to your original post.

Most Australians are very tolerant of other cultures but we are also very open about our thoughts and ideas.

Most Aussies "call a spade a spade"..... even our politicians.... and although it may upset the "politically correct groups" in our society I think this is what makes Australia great....we are not afraid to speak out and say it like it is.

Don't get me wrong I'm not racist nor am I against against multiculturalism (my father migrated to Australia as a child from Italy in the 1940's) but most Australians believe not just in multiculturalism but also in integration.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Don't get me wrong I'm not racist nor am I against against multiculturalism (my father migrated to Australia as a child from Italy in the 1940's) but most Australians believe not just in multiculturalism but also in integration.

I agree 100%. If I were King , I would ban all parades and celebrations that Celebrate racial, religious or ethnic differences. When people talk about how wonderful the xxxxx are, they are saying either that the xxxxx are better, not American in my mind, or the xxxxx are just as good as everybody else, a waste of words, in my mind.

[Carlene 12]

Did you know that the Roman Catholics, the Protestants and the Jews each have different versions of the 10 Commandments?

quote]

Actually, Lutherans and Catholics use the same "version", which is actually just an alternate scripture where the commandments are worded a bit differently.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

There are three generally accepted versions of the 10 commandments:

Protestant Version:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the Water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy Manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Catholic Version:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

5. Thou shalt not kill.

6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7. Thou shalt not steal.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

Hebrew Version:

1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the Water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

3. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honour of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honour of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

However, I defy anyone to show me anywhere in the Bible where 10 commandments are laid out and numbered 1 through 10. In both Exodus and Deuteronomy, there are what most people would call the basis for the Ten Commandments, but Exodus 20 takes verses 2 to 17 to spell out the Ten Commandments, while Deuteronomy 5 needs verses 6 through 21. That is 16 verses in each book to spell out 10 commandments.

[bitteroldhag 0]

The original Australians were sent to Australia as a way of avoiding prison.

Many of the people who settled the US were seeking religious freedom. Should the US now restrict religious freedom?

There is a lot of difference between the history and background of the US society and Australian society.

Muslims believe in the same God as the Christians (and Jews) believe in. In is the Christians (and Jews) who are unaware of that (in many cases).

English is not the national language of the USA. The USA has no national language. It is almost funny when you hear people living in San Diego or San Francisco or Arizona or Florida complaining about English not being the USA's national language. Maybe if the USA hadn't stolen all the land (previously named by the Spanish who settled it), we would not need to have this debate.

Maybe if we circulate this enough many US citizens fed up with their perceived problems will find the backbone to move to Australia.

Thanks for clarifying the facts here though actually people were sent to prison in Australia from England. And women went there to marry men who were already there because there weren't enough men in England in the 19th century. But I like Australians. They're fun and seem to be nice and reasonable.

Regarding God in the U.S., most of the founders were actually Deists who nominally belonged to a church. Benjamin Franklin discusses the fact that he went to the Presbyterian church once and didn't like the minister's sermon so he didn't go again. If one lived in a rural area, it wasn't easy to go to church in those days since it could be a day's wagon ride to the church. So they had circuit riding ministers. My great, great grandfather was a Methodist circuit riding preacher in Virginia. Claims that we are only a Christian nation aren't really true, and I think Christ would have a problem with people trying to force others to be Christians. Of course, I don't really know what he'd think, but I'm guessing this based on what is reported about him in the Bible.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Muslim Fundamental extremists are people who don't read their holy book enough to know that their God doesn't want them fighting in his name.

Christian Fundamental extremists are people who don't read their holy book enough to know that their God, who is the same God that the Muslims worship, doesn't want them fighting in his name either.

[TommyO 5]

Well, this has been quite a read, I happened across this thread for the first time today and I must say it really made me feel much better about our chances of survival.

I am not religious but I believe that everyone should be able to make their own decisions on who or what they should be able to worship. I am however apposed to intolerance and fanatacism. It's just to bad that the individualls who tend to be the most fanatical tend to vail their fanatacism in religious docterine.

I have enjoyed this discussion very much and I thank each contributor for providing me with an interesting read. Isn't freedom of speach a grand thing, whether you are in the U.S., Autralia, Isreal, Iraq, England, Canada et al. It's great to be able to participate in such an exciting, topic

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Well, this has been quite a read, I happened across this thread for the first time today and I must say it really made me feel much better about our chances of survival.

I am not religious but I believe that everyone should be able to make their own decisions on who or what they should be able to worship. I am however apposed to intolerance and fanatacism. It's just to bad that the individualls who tend to be the most fanatical tend to vail their fanatacism in religious docterine.

I have enjoyed this discussion very much and I thank each contributor for providing me with an interesting read. Isn't freedom of speach a grand thing, whether you are in the U.S., Autralia, Isreal, Iraq, England, Canada et al. It's great to be able to participate in such an exciting, topic

What scares me most is losing "free speech" because of over-zealous enforcement of our anti-terrorist laws.

Recently there were 7 Muslims arrested in the Miami Florida area. It made huge headlines, but after a lot of examination, many people think it was nothing more than a bunch of disgruntled fools. An FBI plant was in with the group and many wonder how much the agent spurred on the discussion.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear to anyone who wants to read something that I am not writing. If these people were planning and plotting to perform terrorists acts, then they should be prosecuted for their crimes. However, if it was just a bunch of eccentric big-mouths, then they should be set free and the time that they have spent incarcerated since their arrest should be more than enough punishment for their stupidity.

Getting back to what I fear most: We may never know if they really had any intentions of anything more that talk. Why? Because of the new Geneva convention interpretation bill which just passed both houses of congress. This bill may give BuSh the authority to label these men as “enemy combatants” and then they would be denied council, would be held indefinitely and worst of all, they could be tortured until they confess to everything and anything that the interrogator wants to hear. Whether that will be the truth is something we will never know, because after the prisoners confess, that confession will be used against them in a military tribunal and will result in their conviction (and possible execution).

Their case will go down as proof that we need this system. And as with any system that is needed and effective (and you know the government will point to their 100% conviction rate as proof of effectiveness), this system will be expanded to cover more types of crime.

But there is the rub. Even if the 7 fools de jour were nothing more than big mouths looking to hear themselves talk, they will not be able to withstand the interrogation, and will be convicted.

Free speech will suffer. First it will only be free speech about the war effort, then it can spread to other issues, and soon you may have to look over your shoulder before mentioning the name BuSh in anything but the most glowing praise.

Ann Coulter set the stage. The US public thought they were in the audience, but may wind up as the central character.