Just a little sugar...

[meggiep 57]

The pup wants tastes of my Protein drinks and he can' have them. It's killing him! SO I make sure I rinse my mouth carefully so the kisses are not lethal!

Oh my son- I don't know if you could see well enough in the video how long his eye lashes are- it is freaking unfair! Big long thick lashes around big brown eyes. I have that to a degree but women are always telling him how unfair that is! He really has a great heart too.

[ybnormal 21]

There's a distinct difference between a sore throat and "puking and vomiting" - (your words) - with just about everything that passes your lips. First you asked about sugar....then we digressed to nothing with artifical sweetener will do. The aftertaste is too horrible...obviously developing a taste for it is out of the question. Water makes you 'puke' - seriously now, really??!! All this from what?

Please do NOT insult me, or try to....I am not dialing "it" back at all. I stand by every single thing I said. Call a spade a spade, a quack a quack, I don't give a rat's rear end where he/she is located. If starting solids a few days after having 85% of your stomach removed is common 'over there' - then YES, I will shout it and post it.......QUACKS!!!!! If we have doctors here that do that.....then, quack, quack. BTW, they've been doing this surgery for years and years...before it was being done for the first part of a 2 part WLS (DS) it was being done, (removing all or part of the stomach) for ulcers and cancer. My step-mother had a large portion of her tummy taken out over 30 years ago.....weight loss was just a bonus, she lost 45 lbs, not that she needed to....and remains thin to this day.

I remember exactly what it was like at week 1 and week 2. I sat around with a heating pad, walked a lot around the house; tried my hardest to drink HALF the Water they wanted me to. Slept with a flat pillow under my tummy because it hurt to turn over. Stopped pain meds after a few days. I only took it at night anyway. I really had no issues except getting enough liquids in. I felt good except when I coughed....I needed a pillow to hold against my tummy. Every day I felt better. My memory sucks, but I remember....I also remember giving birth to my children.

I really don't agree with you, I don't think I'm arrogant, but that doesn't offend me. I'm pretty thick skinned. I've said what works for me. Take it or leave it. People ask for advice, I can only tell you my story. Some times people ask questions and they really don't want answers....or they already KNOW the answer.

ok enough please. She's recovering from major surgery and you're adding stress? Nice. How helpful is that, seriously? You can't stand to not have the last word it seems. To be honest it just seems like an attack on Meggie at this point and she doesn't need any more words of encouragement from you. You don't see eye to eye and that's cool just don't click here and move on, right? I've had to bite my tongue numerous times here and when I didn't I found out that all I'd succeeded in doing was making myself look like an ass. Something to think about. Read more, type less, especially when it's just hurtful words to someone going through an emotional and healing time in her life.

Meggie, just watched your latest video and woot! You're looking amazing dahling!!! lol

Renee`

[Disney 20]

The pup wants tastes of my Protein drinks and he can' have them. It's killing him! SO I make sure I rinse my mouth carefully so the kisses are not lethal!

Oh my son- I don't know if you could see well enough in the video how long his eye lashes are- it is freaking unfair! Big long thick lashes around big brown eyes. I have that to a degree but women are always telling him how unfair that is! He really has a great heart too.

Haha....those Proteins drinks actually WOULD kill him!! YUCK! Don't leave one sitting around the house

[meggiep 57]

Haha....those Proteins drinks actually WOULD kill him!! YUCK! Don't leave one sitting around the house

I know- some both chocolate AND splenda. He doesn't know. SO we have a very careful cleanup routine.

[ybnormal 21]

My dog frequently poops money (lucky me I guess?) so she has a tummy of steel. She is a naughty, spoiled rotten pitbull that used to get into everything. After making herself sick a few times she learned the hard way I guess. She hasn't "paid out" (as my husband said the first time she pooped money) for a while now and I'm thankful for that. I know what you mean about having to put stuff up and away from them, she gets into everything!

Renee`

[meggiep 57]

There's a distinct difference between a sore throat and "puking and vomiting" - (your words) - with just about everything that passes your lips. First you asked about sugar....then we digressed to nothing with artifical sweetener will do. The aftertaste is too horrible...obviously developing a taste for it is out of the question. Water makes you 'puke' - seriously now, really??!! All this from what?

Yes, dear- really, And I am not the only one by a long shot. Again- my experience- and just because it is not your experience does not merit a "really?". That is where the nasty part comes in.

Please do NOT insult me, or try to....I am not dialing "it" back at all. I stand by every single thing I said. Call a spade a spade, a quack a quack, I don't give a rat's rear end where he/she is located. If starting solids a few days after having 85% of your stomach removed is common 'over there' - then YES, I will shout it and post it.......QUACKS!!!!! If we have doctors here that do that.....then, quack, quack. BTW, they've been doing this surgery for years and years...before it was being done for the first part of a 2 part WLS (DS) it was being done, (removing all or part of the stomach) for ulcers and cancer. My step-mother had a large portion of her tummy taken out over 30 years ago.....weight loss was just a bonus, she lost 45 lbs, not that she needed to....and remains thin to this day.

I remember exactly what it was like at week 1 and week 2. I sat around with a heating pad, walked a lot around the house; tried my hardest to drink HALF the Water they wanted me to. Slept with a flat pillow under my tummy because it hurt to turn over. Stopped pain meds after a few days. I only took it at night anyway. I really had no issues except getting enough liquids in. I felt good except when I coughed....I needed a pillow to hold against my tummy. Every day I felt better. My memory sucks, but I remember....I also remember giving birth to my children.

Yes you remember what it was like for YOU. You had few issues, your pain passed quickly, etc. But there is a big group of others with their own experiences and if you can;t see beyond your own to feel compassion for theirs don't bother.

I really don't agree with you, I don't think I'm arrogant, but that doesn't offend me. I'm pretty thick skinned. I've said what works for me. Take it or leave it. People ask for advice, I can only tell you my story. Some times people ask questions and they really don't want answers....or they already KNOW the answer.

An arrogant person never sees themself as arrogant- that is part of what arrogance is! You also say "people" when you very lightly veil that you are meaning that person. Yes, I wanted answers, I didn't already know the answer, and I got answers. NOT FROM YOU.

[swizzly 901]

Whoever said they started solids at three days....I can't imagine any reputable doctor in OUR country recommending putting solids in our new tummies at day 3 or 4; We are stitched and full of staples, but I guess you never know, there are quacks, we all know that. You can't drink Water, imagine eating baked chicken or a sirloin; nobody wants to risk a leak!

"Whoever" posted just a couple of posts above yours, as I think you are referring to me -- "swizzly" or Dee, per my signature. Nice to meet you, NtvTxn.

I agree, OUR country has plenty of good physicians and programs, as I said in my original post. However, in this other country where I reside, there are also very good physicians and surgeons, some of whom run the program I am working with.

I'm not sure how ignorant or untrained you think people are, but I can assure you there is no one eating chicken or steak right out of the gate, nor any doctors, surgeons or nutritionists in the program encouraging this. We have tons of pre-op one-on-one nutritional and behavioral testing and counseling, so people are well-prepared for life post-op. Also, perhaps my terminology is unclear, but I was specifically referring to there being no all-liquid phase, but there is definitely an emphasis on soft foods, "well chewed of course," for the first few weeks. meats that are not VERY soft and/or chopped finely/pureed, and raw fruit/veg, are only cleared a few weeks after surgery. And they have just as much success (and as few leaks) as any of the other top programs do.

They do keep people in hospital as well for a week for this surgery, so that they can be closely monitored and guided in the first days after the operation. They serve specialised bariatric menus to WLS patients that entire time. This means nothing on the first day post-op, until the final leak test is passed. Then liquids for the next 2-3 days, depending on how the patient is tolerating them. (I didn't get off my IV till day five because I was having a hard time to drink Water, it was making me vomit.) Then soft solid foods, like zwieback and mash and soft-cooked veg.

They also do not give pre- or post-op antibiotics automatically -- they are only given if an infection presents. Again, this is different to the US, but there are some very good reasons for not overusing antibiotics, which is just how things are done here. This is my second major surgery in this country, and I've not had an infection either time, so antibiotics were never needed in my case.

So they do have good reasons for doing things the way they do -- and every time I questioned them, based on my US perspectives and paradigms (and things I learned on the boards), they were very good about explaining their rationale, data, and perspectives to me. You may reduce it to quackery because it differs to your experience, but you can't (reasonably) deny scientific data. Though it is a private clinic, they partner with the university hospital to conduct a number of WLS studies, some of which you are likely to have run across in your extensive pre-op research. Similarly, you must know based on that research that leaks are very rarely caused by patient non-compliance (eg, eating something 'wrong') and are more often caused by things outside the patient's control, and even often outside the surgeon's (assuming a minimally skilled and experienced surgeon of course) control, such as infection, scar tissue, previous tissue damage, completely random chance, etc.

I cannot believe doctors nation wide have these diet rules to be 'mean'. A conspiracy? Oh my!

I never said or implied anything like that. And one thing I have definitely noticed is there is nothing like "nation wide" rules. The programs are so different, it is frequently driving patients nuts, which we can see from all the posts on the boards saying different and sometimes completely opposite things. So a conspiracy is something I never even thought about, let alone implied.

As I'm sure you know, the "Center of Excellence" program is a US-based rating system. They don't have such a thing here, to my knowledge -- or if they have an EU-based equivalent, they probably wouldn't use it in this country anyhow, as it is not part of the EU. To assume this also means that there is no quality care outside the US is just absurd on its face.

At our seminar, what did catch my attention, and stuck with me is: "This is not a diet, this is a way of life" I like that, it's hard to wrap your head around it and not worry about regaining, but it's possible... my 'bariatric Bible'

There is a definite bias against dieting already in the culture here. They think everyone should eat sensibly and in moderation. So this is the entire basis of their post-op approach. They don't say it like that or at least not that explicitly all the time, because it is already a starting assumption. There is nothing like a "Bible" related to it, because the Bible idea reinforces the notion that there is One True Bariatric Way, which there is not. (There are some guidelines and handouts, which I refer to from time to time, but I'd rather just ask my dr or nut, as I see them frequently and can call them anytime and get a same-day conversation, this is not a problem.) Again, my whole point is that the approach is flexible in a way that recognises individual differences, which I found comforting when I was having post-op difficulties and could then find things to eat which worked for me. I feel this helped me personally to recover very quickly physically, and it was also comforting on an emotional and mental level as well.

Incidentally, I have heard that a few true 'food addicts' have been diagnosed as part of the program. I was told they are given a different set of rules, follow-ups and guidelines according to their specific needs. But treating everyone as though they are one simple carb away from a dozen-doughnut-quart-of-ice-cream snarf-fest is just not a helpful approach, and IMO causes undue anxiety and stress for a population that is already anxious and stressed about food -- and trying NOT to be. As the nutritionist always says, roughly translating: A little of this or that will never hurt you; having too much or having it every day is a very bad idea and will not help you be successful.

[ybnormal 21]

Hmmmm...this very much reminds me of when Dr. Atkins first came out with his new data and it was totally rebuffed and scoffed at. He was thought to be a quack that was going to kill people. Maybe they're onto something that we aren't yet. Why do THEY have to be the ones in their wrong thinking? Maybe having an open mind is tough in some cases but for me, I think if it's working it's working and you obviously have inside knowledge of how things work. I would absolutely welcome your advice Dee because just maybe "YOUR" country is ahead in this race, who am I to say they're wrong? I don't have a PhD or even my MD license, nor am I an Rn or an Lpn so to be honest, I'm sure other places do it differently because even Drs HERE can't all agree on one thing.

Don't scoff at someone or think they're wrong just because it isn't in line with your way of thinking.

Renee`

[NtvTxn 1,262]

This is waaay to wordy for me to address all of it with one cup of coffee under my belt, but I do want to say. I was a cash pay patient, so I was in private hospital, kind a like an Embassy Suite with medical staff. Private room, personal nurses each shift, couch, flat screen etc. They too were partnered with a big hospital - Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas.

The "Bariatric Bible" I referred to was MY term....NOBODY elses, I mean nobody has ever called it that. It's strctly MY name for it. It tells us everything we always wanted to know about WLS but were afraid to ask, or didn't think to ask. It starts from arriving the day of surgery to the six week diet afterwards, sample menus. How long before we could lift more than 10 lbs. Exercise.....A place to record weight and inches lost for 2 yrs. and literally things we'd never, ever think of on our own! You get the idea and maybe understand why I call it my "Bariatric Bible" - they certainly didn't call it that, my gosh!! LoL

I have the attention span of a four year old, I can't possibly sit here and digest the rest of your post this early, but I think anyone who is a few days out....should act as our Guinea Pigs, go against whatever their surgeons say, if they think that's a good idea.....eat whatever, chew well, and as Dr. Phil would say, let us know how that's workin' for them. I never said there were not 'good physicians' in other countrys. I wouldn't know. I gave MY opinion on this one subject and I don't care where they practice, you seem to be a bit sensitive. I stand by that opinion. You have yours, I have mine. If you want to call that arrogant, ok, I would rather just call it being a Texan, of course, on second thought, we are called an arrogant bunch!! LoL

"Whoever" posted just a couple of posts above yours, as I think you are referring to me -- "swizzly" or Dee, per my signature. Nice to meet you, NtvTxn.

I agree, OUR country has plenty of good physicians and programs, as I said in my original post. However, in this other country where I reside, there are also very good physicians and surgeons, some of whom run the program I am working with.

I'm not sure how ignorant or untrained you think people are, but I can assure you there is no one eating chicken or steak right out of the gate, nor any doctors, surgeons or nutritionists in the program encouraging this. We have tons of pre-op one-on-one nutritional and behavioral testing and counseling, so people are well-prepared for life post-op. Also, perhaps my terminology is unclear, but I was specifically referring to there being no all-liquid phase, but there is definitely an emphasis on soft foods, "well chewed of course," for the first few weeks. meats that are not VERY soft and/or chopped finely/pureed, and raw fruit/veg, are only cleared a few weeks after surgery. And they have just as much success (and as few leaks) as any of the other top programs do.

They do keep people in hospital as well for a week for this surgery, so that they can be closely monitored and guided in the first days after the operation. They serve specialised bariatric menus to WLS patients that entire time. This means nothing on the first day post-op, until the final leak test is passed. Then liquids for the next 2-3 days, depending on how the patient is tolerating them. (I didn't get off my IV till day five because I was having a hard time to drink Water, it was making me vomit.) Then soft solid foods, like zwieback and mash and soft-cooked veg.

They also do not give pre- or post-op antibiotics automatically -- they are only given if an infection presents. Again, this is different to the US, but there are some very good reasons for not overusing antibiotics, which is just how things are done here. This is my second major surgery in this country, and I've not had an infection either time, so antibiotics were never needed in my case.

So they do have good reasons for doing things the way they do -- and every time I questioned them, based on my US perspectives and paradigms (and things I learned on the boards), they were very good about explaining their rationale, data, and perspectives to me. You may reduce it to quackery because it differs to your experience, but you can't (reasonably) deny scientific data. Though it is a private clinic, they partner with the university hospital to conduct a number of WLS studies, some of which you are likely to have run across in your extensive pre-op research. Similarly, you must know based on that research that leaks are very rarely caused by patient non-compliance (eg, eating something 'wrong') and are more often caused by things outside the patient's control, and even often outside the surgeon's (assuming a minimally skilled and experienced surgeon of course) control, such as infection, scar tissue, previous tissue damage, completely random chance, etc.

[/color][/size][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size]

I never said or implied anything like that. And one thing I have definitely noticed is there is nothing like "nation wide" rules. The programs are so different, it is frequently driving patients nuts, which we can see from all the posts on the boards saying different and sometimes completely opposite things. So a conspiracy is something I never even thought about, let alone implied.

As I'm sure you know, the "Center of Excellence" program is a US-based rating system. They don't have such a thing here, to my knowledge -- or if they have an EU-based equivalent, they probably wouldn't use it in this country anyhow, as it is not part of the EU. To assume this also means that there is no quality care outside the US is just absurd on its face.

[/color][/size][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font]

There is a definite bias against dieting already in the culture here. They think everyone should eat sensibly and in moderation. So this is the entire basis of their post-op approach. They don't say it like that or at least not that explicitly all the time, because it is already a starting assumption. There is nothing like a "Bible" related to it, because the Bible idea reinforces the notion that there is One True Bariatric Way, which there is not. (There are some guidelines and handouts, which I refer to from time to time, but I'd rather just ask my dr or nut, as I see them frequently and can call them anytime and get a same-day conversation, this is not a problem.) Again, my whole point is that the approach is flexible in a way that recognises individual differences, which I found comforting when I was having post-op difficulties and could then find things to eat which worked for me. I feel this helped me personally to recover very quickly physically, and it was also comforting on an emotional and mental level as well.

Incidentally, I have heard that a few true 'food addicts' have been diagnosed as part of the program. I was told they are given a different set of rules, follow-ups and guidelines according to their specific needs. But treating everyone as though they are one simple carb away from a dozen-doughnut-quart-of-ice-cream snarf-fest is just not a helpful approach, and IMO causes undue anxiety and stress for a population that is already anxious and stressed about food -- and trying NOT to be. As the nutritionist always says, roughly translating: A little of this or that will never hurt you; having too much or having it every day is a very bad idea and will not help you be successful.

[swizzly 901]

This is waaay to wordy for me

On this we can certainly agree. I am often far too wordy.

[NtvTxn 1,262]

It's ok, so am I!!

On this we can certainly agree. I am often far too wordy.

[RVAGirl 2]

I despise all artificial sugar too. They are sooo bitter and horrid. However, I still haven't used the sugar. The reason being is it doesn't digest well and it lurks around in the bottom of your stomach and intestines. I have had to experiment in finding drinks and Soups that taste good. I mostly drink Vitamin Water Zero, Arizona Diet Green Tea, Diet Snapple Peach Tea, Lifewater, sugar free cocoa, Crystal light, and my new favorite is Mio. All of them come in different flavors and are all sugar free. As far as Protein Shakes Slimfast Protein, Special K chocolate shake, Carnation sugar free, and Atkins Protein Shake have tasted the best to me. The only Protein Powder I can handle is Elite whey Protein Isolate powder in chocolate from GNC. I add a scoop of it in with my Slimfast or whatever protein shake I was having and man it's good. I blend it up like a frapp. I think you'll just have to experiment but I'd keep the sugar to a minimum. Good luck!

[meggiep 57]

I despise all artificial sugar too. They are sooo bitter and horrid. However, I still haven't used the sugar. The reason being is it doesn't digest well and it lurks around in the bottom of your stomach and intestines. I have had to experiment in finding drinks and Soups that taste good. I mostly drink Vitamin Water Zero, Arizona Diet Green Tea, Diet Snapple Peach Tea, Lifewater, sugar free cocoa, Crystal light, and my new favorite is Mio. All of them come in different flavors and are all sugar free. As far as Protein Shakes Slimfast Protein, Special K chocolate shake, Carnation sugar free, and Atkins Protein Shake have tasted the best to me. The only Protein powder I can handle is Elite Whey Protein Isolate powder in chocolate from GNC. I add a scoop of it in with my Slimfast or whatever protein shake I was having and man it's good. I blend it up like a frapp. I think you'll just have to experiment but I'd keep the sugar to a minimum. Good luck!

Thank you! I have come to a fairly good balance now.

Of course I posted this in that awful period when I could not drink anything without pain and many things without vomiting! I truly just wanted to get a liquid in and nothing was working. I then finally found a couple of Protein Drinks with spenda in them I can do, the Propel Water recommended by a reply totally helped, the Dreyers sugar free popsicles are WONDERFUL, and yes, I put half a teaspoon of sugar in the warm Decaf tea that is also going down well.

The last two days I have gotten all my water and protein requirements so I am definitely way way better! Thank you to everyone who helped!

Swizzly dear I love hearing about how it is done in other countries. How wonderful to live somewhere not totally bound by fear of law suits and the risk management insurance people booting you out way too soon only because of money. I bet if we were all kept a week it would make a HUGE difference, both in complication rate and just in quality of life after the sleeve.

[swizzly 901]

I bet if we were all kept a week it would make a HUGE difference, both in complication rate and just in quality of life after the sleeve.

It's true, they are mad keen to keep you in hospital until you are all pink and perky again. Of course, being the contrarian I am, after about day three, it's like I'm plotting my escape from Alcatraz, and all I can focus on is cajoling the doctor or surgeon in charge (depending on which time I've been in) to let me out early for good behavior. Minimum sentence is one week I tell you!!

Bless them, they are really very focused and serious about good health, I am lucky.