Ghrelin and memory / learning?

[LoserMama 37]

ivy, I loved your post, love hearing from someone used to digging into biological research. I will take some time to read and absorb!

[feedyoureye 3,087]

Thanks Ivy!

[Ruby 26]

I speak several languages and often times forget a word in any language.. lol.. i thought maybe not eating as much was causing some confusion in my brain.. lmao.. glad to know its normal..

[Lisalu 89]

Recent research (sorry no citation) suggests that ghrelin producing cells located all over our digestive tract may beef up production to re-establish our ghrelin level. The good news is that if we have had post-VSG memory loss mediated by ghrelin levels, we should get those faculties back. The bad news is increased ghrelin = increased hunger and potentially weight gain. Rats.

As far as memory loss due to dimished ghrelin production is concerned, I think we should bear in mind that high blood sugar levels can lead to memory loss too. I was pre-diabetic before so my brain cells were already in the cross hairs, so to speak.

[feedyoureye 3,087]

I posted a 5 year study that showed that Ghrelin was still down by almost half at the 5 year mark... up just a little bit from the 12 month mark.

This study talks about a durable ghrelin loss....

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20094819

from this page:

http://www.verticals...5-5-year-study/

[Capt Derel 287]

Ghrelin is sold to professional bodybuilders so they feel hungry, same goes for B12 in high dosages. So if your afraid of memory woes dont feel like you cant substitute synthetics for real.

(null)

[gettingthere 11]

Oh the irony of it all! I won't mention this to my husband as one of the things that attracted me to this surgery was the reduction in hunger. If i start looking at ghrelin supplements, I can imagine the comments!

[Rootman 1,101]

Gah! I wish the goof that started this thread woudn't of! We ought to kick him off the board!

[gettingthere 11]

We need to know the good as well as the bad, so thanks for starting it! :biggrin5:

[feedyoureye 3,087]

...We ought to kick him off the board!

I thought about it, but then forgot!

[forever29 6]

Okay... so has it gotten better for anyone? I consider myself a sharp person & a major part of my job is to be very detailed oriented (keeping up with a very artistic add genius). This scares the crap out of me.

[ouroborous 519]

Regarding neuron growth and Ghrelin: Here is what I see in this primary article. (I found a few others that mirror the same results I just figured I would include the one). Ghrelin does seem to positively correlate with the growth of some neurons. However, these neurons control appetite and hunger along with other dietary regulatory functions. So, by this research, yes wikipedia is right in saying that Ghrelin seems to support neuron growth. Although, based on the other studies I have looked at, there are other places in your body that contain Gherlin. Removal of the stomach does not remove Gherlin from your body. If it is true that Ghrelin stimulates neuron growth in the areas of the brain that dictate appetite, then the neurons do not stop growing, they just slow down. The body has many specialized neurons that only respond to certain chemical ques. Not all neurons are related to memory function. There are not enough studies done on this to predict other roles that Gherlin might play. In this, we are all a bunch of lab rats. It is very clear the detrimental effects of chronic obesity. I will continue researching this and let you guys know if I find anything new. Does anyone read this differently? I am a biologist, not a neurologist or biochemist so I could be missing something. Thank you for the original posting. I really needed to look more into the biochemical function of this hormone anyway Memory loss can be attributed to so many things in the case of a surgery like the sleeve. As was mentioned above, we also have to look at the chance that it could be post-op healing, dehydration, change in metabolism, lack of nutrition, psychological and physical stress etc.

http://journal.9med....e.php?id=196709

1. Hypothalamic appetite regulation Feeding is a basic behavior that is necessary for life. Long-term lack of food results in death. It is well accepted that appetite is controlled by the brain and that feeding behavior is regulated by complex mechanisms in the central nervous system, in particular the hypothalamus (70, 207, 256). Removal of the lateral hypothalamus causes hypophagia (decreased feeding), leading to death due to severe weight loss. On the other hand, removal of the ventromedial hypothalamus causes hyperphagia (increased feeding); treated animals increase both feeding amount and frequency, leading to weight gain and severe obesity. Thus feeding is regulated by a balance of stimulating and inhibiting forces in the hypothalamus.

Recent identification of appetite-regulating humoral factors reveals regulatory mechanisms not only in the central nervous system, but also mediated by factors secreted from peripheral tissues (174, 216, 250, 267). Leptin, produced in adipose tissues, is an appetite-suppressing factor that transmits satiety signals to the brain (79). Hunger signals from peripheral tissues, however, had remained unidentified until the recent discovery of ghrelin.

2. Ghrelin neurons in the hypothalamic appetite regulatory region

Immunohistochemical analyses indicate that ghrelin-containing neurons are found in the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus, a region involved in appetite regulation (133, 148). This localization suggests a role of ghrelin in controlling food intake. Moreover, a recent report has indicated that ghrelin is also expressed in previously uncharacterized hypothalamic neurons that are adjacent to the third ventricle between the dorsal, ventral, paraventricular (PVN), and arcuate (ARC) hypothalamic nuclei (48). In the ARC, these ghrelin-containing neurons send efferent fibers onto NPY- and AgRP-expressing neurons to stimulate the release of these orexigenic peptides and onto POMC neurons to suppress the release of this anorexigenic peptide (Fig. 10). Neural network of ghrelin in the PVN is more complex. In the PVN, ghrelin neurons also send efferent fibers onto NPY neurons, which in turn suppress GABA release, resulting in the stimulation of corticotrophin-releasing hormone (CRH)-expressing neurons, leading to ACTH and cortisol release (Fig. 10).

3. Ghrelin is a potent appetite stimulant

When ghrelin is injected into the cerebral ventricles of rats, their food intake is potently stimulated (122, 173, 211, 246, 266). Among all discovered orexigenic peptide, ghrelin has been found to be the most powerful. Chronic intracerebroventricular injection of ghrelin increases cumulative food intake and decreases energy expenditure, resulting in body weight gain. Ghrelin-treated mice also increase their fat mass, both absolutely and as a percentage of total body weight.

Not only intracerebroventricular injection, but also intravenous and subcutaneous injection of ghrelin have been shown to increase food intake (173, 246, 265). Ghrelin is produced primarily in gastrointestinal organs in response to hunger and starvation, and circulates in the blood, serving as a peripheral signal telling the central nervous system to stimulate feeding.

4. Mechanism of appetite stimulation by ghrelin

The hypothalamic ARC is the main site of ghrelin's activity in the central nervous system. The ARC is also a target of leptin, an appetite-suppressing hormone produced in adipose tissues, and NPY and AgRP, which are both appetite-stimulating peptides (76, 163). NPY and AgRP are produced in the same population of neurons in the ARC, and their appetite-stimulating effects are inhibited directly by leptin. At least part of the orexigenic effect of ghrelin is mediated by upregulating the genes encoding these potent appetite stimulants (Fig. 10).

As suggested by the distribution of ghrelin-containing neurons in the hypothalamus (Fig. 10), intracerebroventricular injection of ghrelin induces Fos expression in NPY-expressing neurons and increases the amount of NPY mRNA in the ARC (122, 173, 211). Moreover, intracerebroventricular ghrelin injection increases the AgRP mRNA level in the hypothalamus. The appetite-stimulating effects of ghrelin are blocked by an antagonist of NPY receptor 1. Intracerebroventricular injection of an AgRP inhibitor, anti-NPY IgG, or anti-AgRP IgG inhibits the appetite-stimulating effects of ghrelin. Intravenous injection of ghrelin also stimulates NPY/AgRP neurons in the hypothalamus. Immunohistochemical analysis indicated that ghrelin neuron fibers directly contact NPY/AgRP neurons (48). These results indicate that ghrelin exerts its feeding activity by stimulating NPY/AgRP

So, my reading of this parallels with yours: the ghrelin-related neuron mediation seems to be specifically in the hypothalamic areas regulating feeding. It's like my pituitary adenoma; it's sensitive to dopamine, but only locally so -- I cannot infer systemic dopamine effects just based upon the one neoplasm.

In short: if I'm reading this study correctly, it doesn't indicate generalized memory loss from ghrelin loss. Relax, folks.

And one more time with feeling: the negative effects of obesity, including the negative mental effects of obesity, are far more dangerous than anything they've found from the VSG yet. I'm not saying they won't ever find some serious side effect, but this isn't the smoking gun.

To all those saying "ever since the surgery, I've felt foggy!!!!" -- beware of self-diagnosis. My guess is that you're far "sharper" than you think you are, and you're just anxious about feeling foggy. And if you really are foggy in any way, there are far, far, far more likely causes -- from sleep deprivation to mild water/nutritional imbalances -- than ghrelin issues.

So again, folks: relax.

[forever29 6]

Hey,it isn't that I am disagreeing with any science or your research. I am not making any assumptions about what causes memory loss, I am sure that there could be numerous reasons even related to nutrition or dehydration. This was just a complaint that I had heard from numerous people post surgery. I am just curious if it got better over time or when the weight loss leveled out.

I found this thread from a specific search of memory loss & VSG surgery.

[Rootman 1,101]

I started this thread about a year ago. I was "feelin' the brain fuzz" something fierce. I think that it was caused by the change in caloric intake, the pretty nasty ketosis, anxiety and insomnia. I really started to perk up about 10 months out when my weight stabilized.

Additionally, I've recently started on a 5-HTP supplement and it seems to really perk up my mood and helped a lot with the insomnia, and althoug it anecdotal I DO feel a tad sharper as well.

So cheer up everyone, it too shall pass.

[ouroborous 519]

I started this thread about a year ago. I was "feelin' the brain fuzz" something fierce. I think that it was caused by the change in caloric intake, the pretty nasty ketosis, anxiety and insomnia. I really started to perk up about 10 months out when my weight stabilized.

Additionally, I've recently started on a 5-HTP supplement and it seems to really perk up my mood and helped a lot with the insomnia, and althoug it anecdotal I DO feel a tad sharper as well.

So cheer up everyone, it too shall pass.

Sounds about right -- post surgery until about 8-12 months out, it's VERY common to have a "foggy brain." It has more to do with surgery and general anesthesia than anything else; there are numerous studies documenting it. It would be the same if you had your appendix removed or a Tummy Tuck -- it ain't ghrelin.

Hey,it isn't that I am disagreeing with any science or your research. I am not making any assumptions about what causes memory loss, I am sure that there could be numerous reasons even related to nutrition or dehydration. This was just a complaint that I had heard from numerous people post surgery. I am just curious if it got better over time or when the weight loss leveled out.

I found this thread from a specific search of memory loss & VSG surgery.

No worries even if you WERE disagreeing. I was just trying to make sure nobody saw this thread and panicked. From what I can read of the science, there's simply no cause for concern right now. Yes, if you ask a big enough group of people about a broad enough set of poorly-defined symptoms (and, let's face it, who HASN'T felt "fuzzy brained" sometimes?), you'll get some people saying "yes, by golly, I've had that happen!" The problem is that I've seen on forums like this where that can lead to people getting all worked up over nothing.

There are REAL issues with the sleeve, including things like scar-line problems, C. difficile infection, and so on. But as far as I can tell, losing your memory isn't one of those issues -- if it's gonna happen, it's not gonna be the sleeve's fault!