Ghrelin and memory / learning?

[feedyoureye 3,087]

Have you checked out this post?

The Brain in the gut

I think cutting out our stomachs might be like getting a small lobotomy!

[FindingMe75 9]

I'me onlee too weaks out form my surgeree butt eye havent notiseed anythink defferent yet!

Homer Simpson's problem was that he had a crayon lodged up his nose from when he was a kid (I think it was magenta). We should all get x-rays and make sure the surgeons don't leave tools in or something that messes with our brains!

[ahoy 3]

There's a name for these symptoms -- it's "brain fog"!

I know ALL about it cuz I have chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia, and sadly that's a huge part of it.

The good news is I can point you guys to what I've learned about how to overcome it -- thanks to a combo of prescriptions & supplements, I can now think, remember, and spell (almost all of the time). About 6 weeks ago, I was so sick I literally would forget I was holding things (and my fingers would let go), I wouldn't remember which room I had just been in, couldn't type normally, couldn't spell worth a damn and I'm a total spelling nerd, etc.

Brain fog is caused by a mixture of stress, nutritional issues, and the side effects of stress, which can often result in poor sleep and an underfunction of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis. Basically: your body was like WHOA WHAT JUST HAPPENED, HOLD UP A MINUTE! and your glands dialed back non-essential stuff. Plus, of course, you may not be getting adequate nutrition right now.

And I can tell you: There IS hope! Lots of it!

I'm gonna look like a shill, but I can't recommend this book enough: _From Fatigued to Fantastic_ by Jacob Teitelbaum, one of the leading practitioners treating CFS/FM. He creates a whole FRAMEWORK for treating CFS but parts of those framework can be useful to you even if you don't have CFS/FMS. Specifically the sleep, hormones and nutrition parts of the equation.

Check it out... it costs like $11 and it totally changed my life!

You don't have to suffer from brain fog. It can be fixed!

[ahoy 3]

BTW, when science literature refers to "the gut" they almost never mean "the stomach." The GUT is intestines which do all the work of absorbing nutrients. The stomach mostly just breaks stuff down to make it easy on the gut.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Enteric_(gut)_nervous_system

"The ganglionated submucosal plexus is present in the small and large intestines, but is absent from the esophagus and contains only very few ganglia in the stomach."

See? No worries. Sleeving won't make you stupid. The main use of the enteric nervous system is to control the digestion process and give feedback to the nervous system, not thinking, anyway! So theoretically if the sleeve were going to disrupt the enteric nervous system, what you'd get are horrible IBS-like side effects.

HOWEVER (total speculation) ... the actual act of surgery might signal the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems to freak out and conserve in the face of crisis, so that could DEFINITELY be a big contributor to brain fog.

[ouroborous 519]

FWIK, surgery itself can cause "foggy brain" symptoms -- any general anesthesia carries a risk of (possibly long-term, possibly permanent) cognitive impairment. Last time I read about this, there was a recent study correlating time "under" and cognitive impairment, and it was a pretty strong association.

I strongly doubt that ghrelin itself is the primary modulator for memory and concentration, because then we would have been the sharpest tacks in the drawer PRIOR to our VSG's. Now, I have a crazy-high IQ, but my memory and concentration have always been poor, to the point where I still have a diagnosis and prescription for adult ADHD floating around somewhere.

My guess is that this is a case of correlation/causation confusion; weight loss and metabolism are complex enough that it's really hard to generalize from "animal models" to human metabolism. In another ten years, when we have long-term meta-studies of VSG patients available, we'll know more, but right know I'm pretty sure that the costs/risks of obesity FAR outweigh (heh) the risks of VSG.

[sasicas 194]

So glad to see this post, my memory is shot lately. I even messed up the budget this month and I am a total math geek. *sigh*. I forget even the basic everyday things I have been doing for years. Glad to hear its likely temporary.

[Neoteric Verve 65]

Interesting. I have ADHD and the last thing I need is my focus and concentration getting screwed up...AGAIN!

[anonynurse 13]

I'd like to see an actual scientific study providing evidence of this to be honest. It bears noting that Wiki is hardly considered a reputable source of reliable information. In fact, it is banned in most all quality colleges and universities as a research resource because it is such a volatile, unreliable place to get information.

All the head fuzziness anecdotally reported can be attributed to lots of potential factors and the loss of ghrelin is only one of them. It is far more likely to be a complex mix of a change in metabolism and intake, the recovery from a major surgery, anesthesia, chronic mild dehydration, mental distraction from the massive change, a change in relationships and how one relates to the world due to a change in body image, a change in how the world is noticed to be relating to the patient due to a different body image, the subsequent need to assimilate, process and recategorize impressions of the world on a social level, self esteem/self image level and the body adjusting to a different state of health etc etc etc.

I just don't see enough scientific basis here for this to be a reliable conclusion as yet. I would be interested in seeing it if it exists beyond Wiki.

[feedyoureye 3,087]

I'd like to see an actual scientific study providing evidence of this to be honest. It bears noting that Wiki is hardly considered a reputable source of reliable information. In fact, it is banned in most all quality colleges and universities as a research resource because it is such a volatile, unreliable place to get information.

All the head fuzziness anecdotally reported can be attributed to lots of potential factors and the loss of ghrelin is only one of them. It is far more likely to be a complex mix of a change in metabolism and intake, the recovery from a major surgery, anesthesia, chronic mild dehydration, mental distraction from the massive change, a change in relationships and how one relates to the world due to a change in body image, a change in how the world is noticed to be relating to the patient due to a different body image, the subsequent need to assimilate, process and recategorize impressions of the world on a social level, self esteem/self image level and the body adjusting to a different state of health etc etc etc.

I just don't see enough scientific basis here for this to be a reliable conclusion as yet. I would be interested in seeing it if it exists beyond Wiki.

There are some other sources too:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Ghrelin+and+memory+/+learning%3F&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

I have not taken the time to read these yet, but looks interesting...

[SKCUNNINGHAM 298]

FWIK, surgery itself can cause "foggy brain" symptoms -- any general anesthesia carries a risk of (possibly long-term, possibly permanent) cognitive impairment. Last time I read about this, there was a recent study correlating time "under" and cognitive impairment, and it was a pretty strong association.

I strongly doubt that ghrelin itself is the primary modulator for memory and concentration, because then we would have been the sharpest tacks in the drawer PRIOR to our VSG's. Now, I have a crazy-high IQ, but my memory and concentration have always been poor, to the point where I still have a diagnosis and prescription for adult ADHD floating around somewhere.

My guess is that this is a case of correlation/causation confusion; weight loss and metabolism are complex enough that it's really hard to generalize from "animal models" to human metabolism. In another ten years, when we have long-term meta-studies of VSG patients available, we'll know more, but right know I'm pretty sure that the costs/risks of obesity FAR outweigh (heh) the risks of VSG.

I'll take think with brain fog any day over what I was before I started.!

[italianlady13 80]

I have been having a difficult time articulating as well. I thought it was from lack of nutrition as I am only 10 days out. I agree that the long term affects of obesity are far greater than the side effects of vsg thus far. I hope my issues with memory go away asap.

[LoserMama 37]

I am digging through old threads, but any new thinking on this? This scares the bejesus out of me. I already have ADHD, and my job relies on my ability to be a clear, articulate and compelling speaker. How long does this fog period last? Could it also be related to pain meds after surgery in addition to anesthesia?

[sasicas 194]

I am digging through old threads, but any new thinking on this? This scares the bejesus out of me. I already have ADHD, and my job relies on my ability to be a clear, articulate and compelling speaker. How long does this fog period last? Could it also be related to pain meds after surgery in addition to anesthesia?

I am 7 months out and still dealing with memory issues, still very forgetful, I have become a list maker now just to keep track of what I need to do.

[jillw8 22]

Interesting. Hope it's not true. I don't trust wikipedia. Anyone can post on a topic on wikipedia. I will have to check it out because I already a little blond and have issues with such things.

[LadyIvy 159]

Regarding neuron growth and Ghrelin: Here is what I see in this primary article. (I found a few others that mirror the same results I just figured I would include the one). Ghrelin does seem to positively correlate with the growth of some neurons. However, these neurons control appetite and hunger along with other dietary regulatory functions. So, by this research, yes wikipedia is right in saying that Ghrelin seems to support neuron growth. Although, based on the other studies I have looked at, there are other places in your body that contain Gherlin. Removal of the stomach does not remove Gherlin from your body. If it is true that Ghrelin stimulates neuron growth in the areas of the brain that dictate appetite, then the neurons do not stop growing, they just slow down. The body has many specialized neurons that only respond to certain chemical ques. Not all neurons are related to memory function. There are not enough studies done on this to predict other roles that Gherlin might play. In this, we are all a bunch of lab rats. It is very clear the detrimental effects of chronic obesity. I will continue researching this and let you guys know if I find anything new. Does anyone read this differently? I am a biologist, not a neurologist or biochemist so I could be missing something. Thank you for the original posting. I really needed to look more into the biochemical function of this hormone anyway Memory loss can be attributed to so many things in the case of a surgery like the sleeve. As was mentioned above, we also have to look at the chance that it could be post-op healing, dehydration, change in metabolism, lack of nutrition, psychological and physical stress etc.

http://journal.9med.net/qikan/article.php?id=196709

1. Hypothalamic appetite regulation Feeding is a basic behavior that is necessary for life. Long-term lack of food results in death. It is well accepted that appetite is controlled by the brain and that feeding behavior is regulated by complex mechanisms in the central nervous system, in particular the hypothalamus (70, 207, 256). Removal of the lateral hypothalamus causes hypophagia (decreased feeding), leading to death due to severe weight loss. On the other hand, removal of the ventromedial hypothalamus causes hyperphagia (increased feeding); treated animals increase both feeding amount and frequency, leading to weight gain and severe obesity. Thus feeding is regulated by a balance of stimulating and inhibiting forces in the hypothalamus.

Recent identification of appetite-regulating humoral factors reveals regulatory mechanisms not only in the central nervous system, but also mediated by factors secreted from peripheral tissues (174, 216, 250, 267). Leptin, produced in adipose tissues, is an appetite-suppressing factor that transmits satiety signals to the brain (79). Hunger signals from peripheral tissues, however, had remained unidentified until the recent discovery of ghrelin.

2. Ghrelin neurons in the hypothalamic appetite regulatory region

Immunohistochemical analyses indicate that ghrelin-containing neurons are found in the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus, a region involved in appetite regulation (133, 148). This localization suggests a role of ghrelin in controlling food intake. Moreover, a recent report has indicated that ghrelin is also expressed in previously uncharacterized hypothalamic neurons that are adjacent to the third ventricle between the dorsal, ventral, paraventricular (PVN), and arcuate (ARC) hypothalamic nuclei (48). In the ARC, these ghrelin-containing neurons send efferent fibers onto NPY- and AgRP-expressing neurons to stimulate the release of these orexigenic peptides and onto POMC neurons to suppress the release of this anorexigenic peptide (Fig. 10). Neural network of ghrelin in the PVN is more complex. In the PVN, ghrelin neurons also send efferent fibers onto NPY neurons, which in turn suppress GABA release, resulting in the stimulation of corticotrophin-releasing hormone (CRH)-expressing neurons, leading to ACTH and cortisol release (Fig. 10).

3. Ghrelin is a potent appetite stimulant

When ghrelin is injected into the cerebral ventricles of rats, their food intake is potently stimulated (122, 173, 211, 246, 266). Among all discovered orexigenic peptide, ghrelin has been found to be the most powerful. Chronic intracerebroventricular injection of ghrelin increases cumulative food intake and decreases energy expenditure, resulting in body weight gain. Ghrelin-treated mice also increase their fat mass, both absolutely and as a percentage of total body weight.

Not only intracerebroventricular injection, but also intravenous and subcutaneous injection of ghrelin have been shown to increase food intake (173, 246, 265). Ghrelin is produced primarily in gastrointestinal organs in response to hunger and starvation, and circulates in the blood, serving as a peripheral signal telling the central nervous system to stimulate feeding.

4. Mechanism of appetite stimulation by ghrelin

The hypothalamic ARC is the main site of ghrelin's activity in the central nervous system. The ARC is also a target of leptin, an appetite-suppressing hormone produced in adipose tissues, and NPY and AgRP, which are both appetite-stimulating peptides (76, 163). NPY and AgRP are produced in the same population of neurons in the ARC, and their appetite-stimulating effects are inhibited directly by leptin. At least part of the orexigenic effect of ghrelin is mediated by upregulating the genes encoding these potent appetite stimulants (Fig. 10).

As suggested by the distribution of ghrelin-containing neurons in the hypothalamus (Fig. 10), intracerebroventricular injection of ghrelin induces Fos expression in NPY-expressing neurons and increases the amount of NPY mRNA in the ARC (122, 173, 211). Moreover, intracerebroventricular ghrelin injection increases the AgRP mRNA level in the hypothalamus. The appetite-stimulating effects of ghrelin are blocked by an antagonist of NPY receptor 1. Intracerebroventricular injection of an AgRP inhibitor, anti-NPY IgG, or anti-AgRP IgG inhibits the appetite-stimulating effects of ghrelin. Intravenous injection of ghrelin also stimulates NPY/AgRP neurons in the hypothalamus. Immunohistochemical analysis indicated that ghrelin neuron fibers directly contact NPY/AgRP neurons (48). These results indicate that ghrelin exerts its feeding activity by stimulating NPY/AgRP