If it were up to you, what laws would you create?

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't see anyone on the anti-abortion picket lines offering checks to pay for the medical expenses of delivering a baby. And if anyone thinks it is cruel putting money ahead of life, tell that to a mother who can not afford to feed and cloth her newborn. Cutting welfare was an attack on children under the guise of strengthening morality. Cutting food-stamps was the next attack on children perpetrated by the party in congress who gets their votes from the anti-abortion forces. Too many anti-abortionists love every baby until it is born. Or should I say an anti-abortionist loves all babies, but not as much as he loves saving his tax dollars?

Then you don't know the pro-life movement very well. Find me a woman who's considering abortion and I GUARANTEE you I can find her a pro-lifer willing to pay for the medical expenses of delivering a baby. Times as many pregnant women you can find. If she's homeless or has nowhere to go and wants to make a change, I can find her a place to live as well.

Just like your saying abortion is only legal in some states through three months, again you just don't know your facts.

[gadgetlady 4]

But in the case of the umbilical cord, there is no separation of mother and fetus. Hence the fetus is still part of the mother. The umbilical cord is as much a part of the mother as it is part of the fetus.

See the story recently about conjoined twins? One child or two there? If they hadn't been separated, did one have the right to bash the others head in? After all, "my body, my choice!"

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Why would you want there to never have to be another abortion if it isn't a bad thing? Clearly you know something's wrong with it if you want there to never have to be another one. Why is it an emotionally draining issue?

It is because as human beings, our paternal instincts are very emotional. However as human beings, women have a right to control their bodies. This sets up a conflict. To give birth and have certain wonderful aspects of motherhood, but risk other problems which may impact on the ability to raise the child (or the child's siblings) or to have an abortion which has many negative aspects, not the least of which is the anti-abortion forces' spin control and religious sanctions.

When have you ever said to a pregnant woman, "How's the fetus doing today?" Or when has a pregnant woman said, "My fetus is kicking me!" During an ultrasound, "What a beautiful image of the fetus"? I don't think so. Instead, the OB says, "Listen to the baby's heartbeat" and "The baby is developing well." We say, "That baby's getting big in there!" and "When is your baby due?" Can you in all honesty even think of saying to a pregnant woman, "Is the fetus a boy or a girl?" or "How's the fetus developing"? The only time we call the unborn baby a fetus is when we're discussing it medically or someone is trying to obfuscate the reality of abortion. "Fetus" means unborn baby! And yes, abortion is killing that baby.

We only use the word fetus when we are being accurate. Accuracy is a fine trait to employ when trying to debate something logically. Blurring distinctions is a way of avoiding logical outcomes when all else fails.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Then you don't know the pro-life movement very well. Find me a woman who's considering abortion and I GUARANTEE you I can find her a pro-lifer willing to pay for the medical expenses of delivering a baby. Times as many pregnant women you can find. If she's homeless or has nowhere to go and wants to make a change, I can find her a place to live as well.

But I do know the anti-abortion forces too well. Part of my family is Roman Catholic and part Pentecostal. There are some on the Pentecostal side who wear as their badge of courage, their arrest records for protesting and blocking abortion clinics. The say they would never kill an abortion doctor, but they revere the men who made the sacrifice to "save the lives of innocent babies" by shooting up abortion clinics and killing providers. They say that these gunmen are not murderers, but "defenders of life".

When I asked them, instead of using your present tactics, would they agree to a contract to adopt a prospective abortion patient's baby (at birth) no matter what the race or physical deformity? They all said, "NO. It was not their responsibilty."

[gadgetlady 4]

It is because as human beings, our paternal instincts are very emotional. However as human beings, women have a right to control their bodies. This sets up a conflict. To give birth and have certain wonderful aspects of motherhood, but risk other problems which may impact on the ability to raise the child (or the child's siblings) or to have an abortion which has many negative aspects, not the least of which is the anti-abortion forces' spin control and religious sanctions.

You can't make someone feel guilty about something that's not wrong. I can jump up and down until I'm blue in the face accusing you of committing the horrific act of painting your house yellow. But if there's nothing wrong with painting your house yellow, you won't feel any guilt.

The reason people feel guilt over abortion is because there's something to feel guilty about. As hard as they may try, anti-abortion spin control and religious sanctions can't create that feeling if abortion is a neutral act.

We only use the word fetus when we are being accurate. Accuracy is a fine trait to employ when trying to debate something logically. Blurring distinctions is a way of avoiding logical outcomes when all else fails.

Because the definition of fetus is unborn baby, why is the word "baby" (or the words "unborn baby") any less an accurate description of what the Latin word "fetus" represents?

You could answer the question, "How many children do you have?" with "I have one infant, one toddler, one pre-teen, and one teenager." Or you could say "Four." Both are accurate. The words used to describe them are simply words that indicate their stage of life. But they are still children.

You could say "My father had a heart attack" or "My geriatric paternal figure had a myocardial infarction." Both are accurate.

We have a language that employs synomyms. I choose to use "unborn baby" or "baby". You choose to use "fetus". Bottom line, it's a little human being.

[gadgetlady 4]

But I do know the anti-abortion forces too well. Part of my family is Roman Catholic and part Pentecostal. There are some on the Pentecostal side who wear as their badge of courage, their arrest records for protesting and blocking abortion clinics. The say they would never kill an abortion doctor, but they revere the men who made the sacrifice to "save the lives of innocent babies" by shooting up abortion clinics and killing providers. They say that these gunmen are not murderers, but "defenders of life".

When I asked them, instead of using your present tactics, would they agree to a contract to adopt a prospective abortion patient's baby (at birth) no matter what the race or physical deformity? They all said, "NO. It was not their responsibilty."

Well, I'm sorry your particular family behaves this way, but they are not the norm. I personally will "agree to a contract to adopt a prospective abortion patient's baby (at birth) no matter what the race or physical deformity." PERIOD. And there are many more like me.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

But I do know the anti-abortion forces too well. Part of my family is Roman Catholic and part Pentecostal. There are some on the Pentecostal side who wear as their badge of courage, their arrest records for protesting and blocking abortion clinics. The say they would never kill an abortion doctor, but they revere the men who made the sacrifice to "save the lives of innocent babies" by shooting up abortion clinics and killing providers. They say that these gunmen are not murderers, but "defenders of life".

When I asked them, instead of using your present tactics, would they agree to a contract to adopt a prospective abortion patient's baby (at birth) no matter what the race or physical deformity? They all said, "NO. It was not their responsibilty."

I would have to say to this, then, that those people are the exception to the rule. Just because you know a select few with this view on the pro-life side does not mean we all feel this way.

I myself volunteer time at a clinic where counselors, doctors and nurse, along with post abortion parents, give time and money to teen mothers, and unfortunate mothers who cannot afford to take care of a child. There are MANY clinics like this throughout the united states. And many many families willing to take in a child who might otherwaise be killed. And yes, this is a logical statement. Yours is also a logical statement. But they are both logical statements based wholey on our particular viewpoints. Lets not get into each other's debating styles. Because you happen to be debating with a two year champ :heh:

Now lets look closely at some of the things you have heard from your family. I, for one, do not condone and absolutely think it is horrible that abortion clinics have been bombed, that providers have been shot or shot at, and that any attacks have been carried out on these people. But I understand it. In the minds of these people who carry out such actions you must understand that these people see what these doctors are doing is mass murder. If a government official decided that your family was not good enough to be on this earth any longer, and there were thousands of people backing up his view points on this, wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop the murder of your family members? Even if your last resort came down to taking the lives of the people carrying out this act? I know that if someone tried to kill an innocent I would gladly put my life, and theirs, on the line to see that it stops. This is the thinking of these people. Just as pro-abortionists claim that it is ok to kill the child to save the mother's life. Take one life to save another. You must look at it from their viewpoint. Again, I do not condone nor agree with this tactic. I believe that it is something that should be solved on a govt. level rather than on a person to person level.

I am a very "small govt" type of person. And I know there are a lot of conservatives that actually agree with pro-choice movements because of the "my body, my choice" notion. Again, while I don't agree with it, I understand. I would love for there to be fewer laws that affect my body and my choices. But in this case we are not talking about my body.

Did you know that a baby, while still in the mother, is in all clinical terms a parasite? the umbilical cord is not attached to the mother. It is attached to the placenta. The placenta is not part of the mother either. It is part of the baby. The placenta pulls blood from the mother's system and nurishes the baby, while also removing waste from the the system. Everything is encapsulated. Nothing is ever part of the mother. The baby is living off of the blood of the mother, just as a tick would. Or a virus. It is a parasite. Knowing this, you cannot say that the baby, while it does reside within the woman, is actually part of the mother. It simply feeds off of the mother until it can survive outside of the womb. The idea that if you cut it off of the mother it cannot survive is true, but that goes without saying for any human being regardless of age when cutoff from food and air. It will die.

And Gadgetlady, I thank you. I do have resources that I use quite frequently. I feel that doing the work I do helps me to cope with the choice I made in the past, though I know I will never be truly over it. I have read the statistics of the climb in family child abuse with regards to post abortion parents. It is sad and I see it a lot in the clinic where I volunteer my time.

[nicka 0]

i will give a monthly allowance for all students coming from the government

[Carlene 12]

See the story recently about conjoined twins? One child or two there? If they hadn't been separated, did one have the right to bash the others head in? After all, "my body, my choice!"

Sadly, one cojoined twin is often sacrificed so that the other can lead a normal life. I say "sadly" not because I disagree with the decision, but because I hate that any parent has to face such a thing.

My stepson and his wife did in vitro fertilization and the doctor implanted a number of embryos. Three survived. It was suggested to them that they should "reduce the pregnancy", at least by one, so as to give the remaining baby/babies a better chance. My DIL could not bring herself to do it, but for nine months, part of her wondered if she had made the right choice.

The kids, by the way, are fine. One has some neuro issues but they are minor.

[gadgetlady 4]

Sadly, one cojoined twin is often sacrificed so that the other can lead a normal life. I say "sadly" not because I disagree with the decision, but because I hate that any parent has to face such a thing. </p>.

But that, of course, is not the goal of separation surgery. The goal is to save both because they are both human beings.

My stepson and his wife did in vitro fertilization and the doctor implanted a number of embryos. Three survived. It was suggested to them that they should "reduce the pregnancy", at least by one, so as to give the remaining baby/babies a better chance. My DIL could not bring herself to do it, but for nine months, part of her wondered if she had made the right choice. </p>

The kids, by the way, are fine. One has some neuro issues but they are minor.

Which one of the three would you have sacrificed to save the other two? Knowing them now, I'm sure you can decide which two are more worthy than the third. Thinking of the one you would have sacrificed and the two you would have saved, suppose the doctors had arbitrarily sacrificed one of the ones you would have saved . . .

[Carlene 12]

But that, of course, is not the goal of separation surgery. The goal is to save both because they are both human beings.

Not always. Sometimes doctors go into the surgery knowing that only one child can be saved. Doctors are not nearly as emotional about this stuff as you and I. An abortion that results in a living, breathing baby is considered a "complication" and generally there is no attempt to save the infant.

Which one of the three would you have sacrificed to save the other two? Knowing them now, I'm sure you can decide which two are more worthy than the third. Thinking of the one you would have sacrificed and the two you would have saved, suppose the doctors had arbitrarily sacrificed one of the ones you would have saved . . .

I had no part in making this choice, nor would I have wanted any. And none of them (two boys and a girl) are more "worthy" than their siblings. I never gave a moment's thought to whether this young couple did the right thing by choosing not to "reduce" their pregnancy. It was THEIR choice - not mine. I prayed that the Lord would give them the strength and wisdom to make the right decision - that's all. And I think He did...but I would not have beat them over the head with my own values and beliefs had they chosen otherwise.

[JMO 0]

Tired old man,

My CHRIST said "I knew you BEFORE you were born." My Christ is PERFECT. My CHRIST makes no mistake. God made life, no you. So isn't it safe to say GOD decides death. It is hard for me to understand how a CHRISTIAN as yourself would think that the GOD you worship makes mistakes. If that is the case he is no GOD. I hoped that the commit I made of makeing abortion harder for children to have would not start a debate. Everyone has their own views and I totally respect everyones. But when you put the word christian and support abortion in the same sentence, I am offended as a christian. What type of example are you setting?

You stated that you hoped none of your grandchildren would have an abortion but then followed with if they wanted one you would not stand in the way? Wait would you not advise them that yes this is going to be a tough road but GOD makes no mistakes, and there is a reason you are carrying that child. Would you not offer the idea that if you really love that child you will give it a home with two parents that have wanted a child more than anything in the world and would love that child more than life itself?

I am baffled by the way the term FETUS is thrown around, I am a "mother" four times over. I lost a child in the second trimester. And when that baby died I DID NOT LOSE A FETUS!! I LOST MY CHILD< she had arms, ears ,legs fingers, toes, a name, SHE WAS A BABY.... As a man you have no idea that at 3 1/2 months we as mothers can feel our BABIES moving.. Our BABIES can hear us, they feel and hurt. One of my best friends worked in an abortion center untill she could handle it no more. The last straw was when a baby was having its limbs sucked off, and it screamed.....HOW CAN A BLOB OF TISSUE (FETUS) SCREAM???????????????? The mother didn't scream, the baby did, and it was still in her body, so hows is that?

The main point of my first post was if your 14 year old child got pregnate, and went to clinic to seek help, and the nurse told her it was a blob of tissue that would not feel pain, and would be over before she knew it. Without the infomation told to her parents "no one is looking out for the BABY or your child" You don't have the chance to tell her this is a baby, or that there are other options, or that she does not HAVE to kill it. What if that was your 14 year old on the table when the BABY screams.. Do you know what long term effect that is going to play in that childs life. I can not imagine. A child should not be able to make a decision to that extream that is going to effect her the rest of her life.

I guess I am done ranting!! I was not going to get into the debate of when a child is a child, I think you all know when I feel it is (if not, I believe LIFE begins at conception) And I also beleive that MY GOD makes NO MISTAKES.....

Church service is over, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

Not always. Sometimes doctors go into the surgery knowing that only one child can be saved.

You are correct. Sometimes doctors have to sacrifice one human being to save another. But that is not what abortion is. Abortion is sacrificing one human being for the convenience of another.

An abortion that results in a living, breathing baby is considered a "complication" and generally there is no attempt to save the infant.

Well said, and very true. How profound. A live baby is a complication. That's why they now do DnX, sucking the brains out of the baby's skull before the head is delivered, so there are no "complications" like the dreaded live birth. In the absence of DnX, when they do saline abortions (burning the baby to death) or prostaglandin abortions, there were occassionally live births. In those cases, the baby was usually drowned, covered with a towel and left to die, or sometimes put in a closet and left to die because the nurses couldn't handle hearing the crying until the baby died. What a wonderful and humane procedure abortion is.

I had no part in making this choice, nor would I have wanted any. And none of them (two boys and a girl) are more "worthy" than their siblings. I never gave a moment's thought to whether this young couple did the right thing by choosing not to "reduce" their pregnancy. It was THEIR choice - not mine. I prayed that the Lord would give them the strength and wisdom to make the right decision - that's all. And I think He did...but I would not have beat them over the head with my own values and beliefs had they chosen otherwise.

I didn't think you made the choice. I was just wondering, since you seem that you would have been ok if they had "reduced the pregnancies", which one of your grandchildren you would have preferred they eliminate.

[nolagirl2 0]

I didn't think you made the choice. I was just wondering, since you seem that you would have been ok if they had "reduced the pregnancies", which one of your grandchildren you would have preferred they eliminate.

I vote for the redhead.

[Meow=^..^= 1]

*NOTE* Do not throw buts out the window, or into peoples trucks, do not pick nose at light, keep my car insurance.... BUT I am still not wearing my seat belt!!!!! LOL

Question...who is the "Reverand"???? never heard of him

Beech girl what do you do?????

My law: (Drum roll please!!!) Within 5 years the US of A will no longer be dependent on OIL!!!!! There is a way!!! Cars do not need to use gas, and sorry if that statement makes Car Execs cringe it is the TRUTH. And each state needs to find there natural reasoures and exploit them for energy.... I often wonder about the city I live in, Las Vegas, why are there not more wind farms???? why do we not use solar power??? HELLOOOO we live in the DESERT!!!! Hot and Windy is all we have ALL the time. Why is there not more plants in California to chang salt Water into regular water???? LOL you know eventually there will not be water from the Colorado right?????

Another, Stupid is as stupid does moments.... Why in a city of almost 2 million people, do we still have parts of our freeways with 2 lanes???? Why are we paying major salaries to city planners for stupidity????

And talking about salaries, why do we allow our state representatives in all aspects of Goverment, the right to give themselves pay raises???? Why dont we just cap it at 50 grand (thats considered middle class) and then we will get people that accually represent us, and that will want to be there for the "right" reasons.

And lastly, I am also pro-choice, not my place to judge or to council. Free will is what we were given. I also had foster kids (teenagers) and it was tough, but I will do it again. I am soooo not down with capital punishment, too many innocent people in jail. But talking about jail, I think it needs to be tougher. My friend went to prison (minimum security on selling drugs), and she thinks it was a sorority. So when she went back they gave her less than a year so she went to jail, which she said was hellish. So when did prison become fun?????

One final note: My Hubby has Polio so he has trouble walking and I noticed that the nieghborhood kids talk about it when we leave the house....I REEEEALLY want to go over and tell them, " I am sorry your parents have chose not to teach you social niceties, but you are all being very rude. If you have questions ask. But if you continue to act in ignorance and rudeness the world will kick you bum!" *sigh* But I wont caz I know I would go off, cuz they havent been taught. The other day they were outside by themselves at 11 pm... I totally agree on Parenting 101, LOL to buy a house or get divorced in Washington you have to take a class, why not when you have a child????