Did God make you rich?

[FunnyDuddies 6]

Preface:

This thread is not one for fighting. I am starting it, I can request that it be locked if it gets out of hand. This thread is to discuss modern versus traditional Christian and additional religious ideas regarding social structure and economics. This is NOT a thread for bashing religion. If you cannot contain yourself and feel you must bash someone's religion, go to another site to do so. There are plenty on the net.

Earlier today I was reading through a thread, and came across something DevilMayKare stated. Instead of hijacking the original thread I asked DevilMayKare if I could quote her here and discuss this topic. It is an interesting one, and one that has fascinated me for a few years now. Here is what she had to say:

I don't remember Jesus being so concerned about people living in comfort tho. I realize the current prevailing brand of "social Christianity" in our country today seems to teach that faith breeds prosperity, but I just haven't seen that example in scripture--quite the opposite, in fact. In the New Testament there is very little emphasis put on wealth (certainly very little emphasis of the POSITIVE sort) and much emphasis put on faith and on the loveliness of children. After all, theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

While I partially agree with Devil (kinda funny name in this case there Kare ) here is more what I feel the situation is. In the christian teachings that I was brought up with (I am baptist) faith does not breed prosperity. In fact, properity befalls people whom God believes will put it to good use, or who need to learn a lesson or two. I was also taught that through faith and God's will, what you need in life is provided for you. That word there is "need". I am not talking about an olympic sized swimming pool. A fancy red convertible. A 7 bedroom house with a sauna.

But I, too, have seen some families and some groups with the thoughts that "the better the follower, the richer the rewards". And families in church with a lot of money and toys are upheld as "very faithful and dedicated" because God has "blessed" them with so much. I never understood why the truely faithful would fall into this sentiment, unless it is being taught somewhere. This mentality of "the more you have, the more you love and are loved" has to come from somewhere.

Rob and I have been accused of this. It has really surprised us as well. We are faithful. We attend a church, teach to our children, pray together as a family, and attend many church social functions. We also do a lot of stuff that is not always looked at as "clean living" like drink, and go dancing at clubs, and swear at times. Yet we have been introduced at our church on three seperate occasions as being devout followers who have been rewarded richly for our service to God. Well yes, we have been rewarded with a wonderful life together, two beautiful intelligent and healthy children, and his will for us made clear. But then our introducers go on to speak about our home, and our jobs, and the school we want the kids to attend. Since when did this turn into a financial game? It has even seeped into our church!!

I guess I would just like to open this up for discussion because I am curious as to who else has had this happen, or who has witnessed it. Why do you think religion has decided to judge a person's faith based on his wealth? Or do you not see this at all and Devil and I are just crazy? LOL That could very well be it!!

[the best me 6]

I see this, and I agree it's a problem. Maybe it's time to change churches?

Church is about the worship of God. This happens in a worship service, in the giving of our gifts both financially and physically, with our time and talents. Inside and oustside the church. I guess, for me, the crux of it is...it's about God. Doing God's will=obeying. The rest is His to decide. I'd like to say more but will hold out for now.

This is a huge issue for me personally. I really really reallly hope this thread turns out well, for I'd like to read and discuss. But the second it turns...I'm out. I hope we can be adults here. Wishful thinking?

[TrishS 3]

I totally disagree with the fact that the stronger believer you are the more riches you will have... I dont believe that God means riches as on things here on earth, not material things anyway. My mom who never drinks never smokes never go out she wont even watch a rated R movie. She is a very very strong Cristian lady. And she lives in a trailer that is falling apart. She make a little over 500.00 a month. She just lost her right leg and cant walk. But she is not depressed she is happy she never runs out of food she always has someone come visit her, and take her out. And she always has money. Now I truely think that she is more blessed because she has Gods love in her heart and she doesnt worry about anything like where her next meal will be, or how she is going to pay mortage. So I do not believe the more you love God and the more Faithful or devoted you are the more pocket money and riches you will have.

[BeacheeGirl 0]

This indeed is a very interesting thread. I don't think God ever "rewards" people with riches, maybe with peace of mind, help in hard times, etc. I'll give you an example: For years I worked for a company in sales for credit card processing solutions for a wide variety of companies but 90% of those companies were Internet Pornography. It really bothered me as I grew closer to God and I prayed and prayed about it. I seflishly thought, well geez I make so much money here and I'm able to pay my bills (I thought $50k a year was A LOT! - coming from being a single mom and having had been on welfare and not even have a car, this was a lot to me!) Well, after being prayerful I started looking for a new job...The NEXT DaY I got a callback from a place I posted my resume too, it ended up being across the street from where I worked and I went in, they interviewed me, highered me immediately, I was able to still do sales but for a company that was above board and was not involved at all in "shady" business, now I make 3 times what I made before when I thought that was a lot of money. I don't think God neccessarily rewarded me with more moeny per say, but I think because I put the burden of finding a new job on his shoulders and decided to leave not knkowing if I would ever make decent money again and he blessed me with a better job that ended up doing quite nicely for myself and I can actually sleep at night! There were times when I was young with my parents and we wouldn't know where are next meal would come from because my dad would be out of work and then the doorbell would ring, and there were bags of groceries! Other times after we left church there would be an evelope with hundreds in it. The selfless people who did that, did not want any recognition, they just wanted to help one of God's children who was loving God and still worshipping even in hards time. I think God's blessings come in different ways. The most important way is when you are living your life based on the morals he sets forth in the Bible and you actively work with your faith and help others that he gives you a sense of "peace" that is priceless and gives you the tools to deal with thte burdens that this earthly life throws us. *just my two cents*

[JMO 0]

I strongly agree with the statement "GOD PROVIDES NEEDS" I know he does in my case. My numbers never work out on paper but at the end of the month my bills are paid, We may have money for a movie and we may not!. My husband and I went from makeing 100+ with no bills when we lived in flordia to now 32,000 with three children, morgage, car, ect...... We moved to be near family so my children could know their grandparents. I stopped working to go to nursing school for my RN. We could not afford it but I have been blessed in so many ways. I pay 20.00 a week for three children to attend daycare because of financial aid and I got a full scholarship, so yes GOD has blessed my home and he provides me what I NEED. I do know this! I am a better person and stronger in my faith because of my financial trials.

[FunnyDuddies 6]

I think a majority of us would agree that God provides what we need, but does not overly reward the more devout. But where do we see this mentality coming from? We know it is out there. I dare anyone to say that they haven't seen it at least once. Who is perpetrating this culture, this philosophy?

[FunnyDuddies 6]

And just an aside. Photonut and I were discussing the other day about how we are all tested and tried. Everyday our faith is pushed. For my husband and I it seems like we get pushed more than most. LOL I am sure everyone faces this. My mother in law jokes that at some point one of us prayed for patience, and we have been taught a lesson ever since. We have our trials. Nothing goes right in our life. We have made and lost fortunes many times over. It has tested our faith and our relationship. But even at the lowest points we were always provided for. I think it is one of the reasons that I no longer stress out when something goes wrong. I know it will be taken care of. I just missed a full week's worth of work. DH missed most of that as well. That means we might come up short for my apron surgery. Am I worried? No. I question, but I am praying a lot, and I know that the answer will come to me soon. because we are always taken care of. I just have to be open to what his will is for me.

[Woodys 0]

Hmmmmmmm......I never interpreted this phrase "the better the follower, the richer the rewards" as meaning rewards that come from money.

I always thought the rewards received were rich in love, happiness, harmony, etc.

Carol

[wavydaby 1]

It is stated somewhere in the Bible (I'm Catholic, we dont memorize passages )

Its easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than a rich man in to the gates of the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe by listening to God, I made the right choices and got a good job and the nice house and all of that material stuff. But far be it from me to say that someone who is poor has no faith and has not been listening to God.

I do believe that if I did NOT listen to God one particular night in January of '97, I would not have my wonderful husband.

I was in the middle of a divorce from a troll. I was upset and hysterically crying and alone, all i could do was pray. And pray and pray and pray.

Then I heard something in my heart, "go to your friend's party tomorrow".

Thats where I met my husband. We hit it off instantly. We have been together ever since.

But money and material wealth, its tricky, and I think this falls under, "I'm too much of a mortal for me to understand."

The Lord helps those who help themselves, but just cause I pray and buy a lotto ticket, doesnt mean I am gonna win it.

[the best me 6]

I think a majority of us would agree that God provides what we need, but does not overly reward the more devout. But where do we see this mentality coming from? We know it is out there. I dare anyone to say that they haven't seen it at least once. Who is perpetrating this culture, this philosophy?

I think there's a "country club" mentality about church for some folks. It's where you go to do, and be a part of, good things, to GET good feelings, to be around like-minded people. ??? I think when the focus is on "what's in it for me and my family?" and not "is God being honored and worshiped here?" it gets skewed.

BeacheeGirl, I loved what you said about "the selfless people who did that, did not want any recognition, they just wanted to help..." and God was glorified for it. AMEN! :amen: It wasn't those people who helped that got the praise, it was God for leading folks to give, and those folks for being obedient. Gotta love it.

[HeatherGurl 0]

My husband and I are very blessed. We have a wonderful relationship and Completely attribute it to our strong faith. I do not consider ourselves wealthy money wise, but our lives are so rich with love, harmony, happiness, and peace. I think that if I didn't go to church, didn't believe in God, and if I was an ugly hateful person... my life would be horrible. That is what stands true for me.

I know MANY wealthy people that are not Christian like and I wouldn't want to be like them for anything.

[vinesqueen 2]

This is very interesting. Thanks for starting this thread! Just this morning I was thinking about how terrible I am for being too materialistic. I want a whole bunch of new things, like a new waterheater, stove, a fridge that makes ice. I want a new washer and dryer! I want a new desk! I want a new car with air-bags. All the things I listed I have (except my car doesn't have air bags), but they are not new and shiny, and I sure don't *need* new ones.

I want, I want, I want. Gimme, gimme, gimme. I know that I should no be so materialistic, but I am. All my major appliances are about 20 years old, but they all work.

I am not a Christian, but a Pagan. I did attend a church based school, so I studied the both the new and old testimaments pretty thouroghly (even if I cannot spell it... )

In the 80's it became fashionable and politically correct to blame poor people for being poor. Instead of giving them the help they needed, it was welfare mothers destroying the very fabric of our socity. This attitude continues I believe. So many people are not given the tools that they need to get out of poverty, they are blaimed instead.

As a child I was taught in school this "And I tell you this also. It is easier for a big animal like a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24 (Worldwide English (New Testament)) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=24&version=73&context=verse

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:20 (King James Version) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:20;&version=9;

These two verses had a lot of impact on me as a child.

One of the things that I remember being important with my school lessons were focuses on concentrating on the rewards on the next life, and how we needed to not be concerned with making money now. I was struck with how important surving the poor, and how central to Jesus' message.

Amy, perhaps it is a regeonal thing, but to have someone brag like that about you seems to me uncooth.

[the best me 6]

But far be it from me to say that someone who is poor has no faith and has not been listening to God.

:amen:

but just cause I pray and buy a lotto ticket, doesnt mean I am gonna win it.

yeah, but I really wanna win that lotto. Just a cool Million would be fine. I promise I'd give a BUNCH to the church! Puuullllleeeeeze! LOL Someone buy me a ticket! haha

[Woodys 0]

Vinesqueen.....don't be so hard on yourself. Its okay to want....it would go against human nature if we didn't! Not everything has to come from nor be a result of how we regard or practice religion or spirituality.

Carol

[Momotrips 0]

Wow, Amy, awesome thread. I know exactly what you mean. I'll try to make this coherent, but I am being bombarded by so many thoughts and examples, bear with me.

First off, I'm Catholic. I was raised as a child as Church of Christ, became Presbyterian as a teen and after ten years of marriage, the death of my mother and my triplets, converted so that my family would be united. (In a non-related "cool" story, my sister, brother-in-law and nephew-in-law also decided to convert at the same time without knowledge of each other. They all used my wonderful husband and the way he lives his life as their inspiration. Pretty weird and neat, I think...) I'm so happy that I did.

Moving on, I'm from Houston, the home of the "mega churches", Lakewood Church in particular and Joel Osteen*. I have a friend that attends Lakewood and she's one of those that likes to bask in how devout she is, however her approach to religion is that she likes to pick and choose what she believes in. Her home church is one of those little country "Church of Bob" places that's not affiliated with any governing body, some guy out in the country just started up his own religion, basically. She calls this pastor in regards to every decision in her life - it's always jarring to spend time with her because of it. Her husband makes a lot of money because he's specialized in the oil industry - not sure exactly how much, but let's say that we are quite comfortable and I'm pretty sure that her husband makes double or more what my oil and gas professional husband makes. She kind of judges herself by this. Her children have literally every toy and video game known to man, unless it in some odd way doesn't meet her "criteria". Her criteria is ever changing (no magic or Harry Potter, but superheroes are okay - wha?...where do their powers come from?) so it's hard to keep up. I'm actually very interested in her views on The Narnia series, seeing as how it has a whole huge section in the Christian Bookstore! I digress... She has always had this pushy way about her, a sense of entitlement, if you will, she's really a steamroller. I never figured how this fit in with her super Christian values. Being a Catholic, we are taught much more that humbleness and charity, etc. are the preferred ways to live, not that there aren't those that think they can buy their way to heaven, mind you. A while back another friend called me and said that I had to watch Joel Osteen later because it would explain a lot of our friend's behavior. She was watching as she got ready for church that morning and was shocked by his sermon. And yes, I agree that Joel Osteen is a great motivational speaker, however I'm not so sure about his creditentials as a Bible scholar. I enjoy a lot of his sermons. That said, what I heard later that evening was unbelieveable! He kept going over that his parisioners were "favored" by God. If you believe then you are "favored". The favored reached so far as to get him an expensive house for 1/2 price and he didn't have to follow airline rules because he was favored and it was God's will, etc. He said that when you're favored you get the best parking spots, the and on and on. (I wondered what the people sitting in the very back that had parked a mile away were thinking about all of this...) The best part was that if you are favored, people WANT to do things for you and you should never be afraid to ask them, in fact his comments came down to the fact that you don't even really have to ask, you can assume and basically force people to do what you want for you. This explained it all for us. She was always just assuming that we'd want to sit for her ill behaved children or go out of our way to do what SHE wanted everytime we got together. Her entire life made sense to us when we heard this. It also explains why she praises God when she gets a good parking space... the worst part is that you can feel her judging you so much of the time. I, by virtue of being Catholic and our other friend, a lot of her judgement came down to that in the past they haven't been able to "live as well" as she thinks she and I do. However, this other friend is now moving on up into a beautiful new home they're building (bigger and better than both of ours - Yay S!) and it is galling my "favored" friend to no end. It really annoys her. She was a little upset when I moved into a house that's comparable to hers as well several years ago. If anyone ever called her on it she'd deny, deny, deny.

Why do we remain friends with her you ask? Well, she's kind of fun a lot of the time and time makes ties hard to break, but mainly, because she insists, so we have no choice but to remain her friend or make an ugly scene which would be uncalled for. Don't get me wrong, she's basically a good person and I know that she means well. I just don't understand a lot of her beliefs.

Another example is a relative by marriage. He joined an evangelical church years ago for the sole reason of becoming wealthy. He wasn't shy about stating this either. He tithed, his family did without and in the long run, he did become wealthy - at his family's expense. Also no one could stand to be around him as he was always trying to "recruit" or brag about his wealth and standing in the church. You'd swear he got a cut of their donations or something - and probably did. He basked in his wealth and his "relationship" with God. He was just really annoying and strange and his kids grew up with eating disorders and teen pregnancies, anything to gain control of their own lives from him. However, what goes around, comes around and he got caught recently embezzling from his most current church and having an affair with the nanny. He has lost everything. His home, his job, his stock in the large corporation he started with and the respect of his community and church. Amazingly his wife has stayed, only because I think she has no where else to go. Very sad for all involved.

So I just don't understand this relationship with faith and wealth (money), either, Amy. My only connection with faith and wealth comes down to the faith that I will always have enough to put my share of wealth in the collection plate! However, my biggest gifts are my family.

Disclaimer* I'm not bashing anyone! Believe what you believe, it doesn't mean we all have to agree.