Morality VS Self Preservation (Neighbor issues)

[Marimaru 7]

Alright. This has NOTHING to do with banding whatsoever, but there are so many different types of people here, I KNOW I can get some good perspective on this.

History:

At the end of November I moved to a new apartment. At the same time, another person moved next door to me. Her and her roommate (sister/friend, dunno) have 3 small children. I think they are all hers, but I'm not 100% sure. A LOT of noise comes from this place. I have called the police on a few occassions to deal with it. Examples: Stereo so loud it sounded like the speakers were in MY living room, louder than I would ever play them if they were. Kids with the TV on so loud I can understand the words through the wall, and them bouncin' and bangin' around at 11:30 at night.

I tried to knock on the door once, but she couldn't hear me through the noise. Something about a maglite banging on the door got her attention tho. I've called on her 4 times I think.

Last night she confronted us and asked that we knock on the door when her kids were being loud, which my fiancee agreed to do, but in her very next breath she threatened to have her 'baby daddy' come kick our asses. I told her that THAT was the very reason I call the police instead of dealing with her; she's always threatening to kick someone's ass.

Later last night, her kids were making noise, but we hadn't complained. She came upstairs to the kids room (right next to ours) and found food in there, and evidently they are not allowed to eat in their room. She started screaming at them about it "m***** f*****" this and "f'in get this sh*t out of here, or I'll beat the sh*t out of you!". She went on for about 10 minutes, and I can't be sure, but I think she spanked them. Now, I've never been against spanking, my mom did it to me (though I don't know if I'll do it when I have kids), but considering I could hear it through a WALL, I'm a bit concerned about how hard she might have been hitting them (again, not 100% sure about this part). She yells at them like this many times a week, though I've never heard what I thought sounded like hitting before.

Dilema:

I really want to call Child Protective Services and get these kids to a safe environment. But, I KNOW she is going to know that a) the landlord is asking her to leave because of my complaints (even though he's had other issues with her) and that I called CPS if they knock on her door. I have no idea if her threat to have her kids' dad come harm us was real or not, and I have no idea what other friends she has, or what she is capable of. Before her, I'd never called the cops on anyone, and I'm usually a quiet person who leaves the other tenants and the landlord alone, so now I kind of feel like I'm going too far... but I feel scared for her kids... whilst being a bit afraid for myself...

Any thoughts are appreciated. I know there are varying opinions on all aspects of this, and I am open to all of them. I wanted to sit on this decision for a couple of days, but my fiancee makes a good point that if we don't hear anything else, we wont call, even though more could be going on.

[vinesqueen 2]

Okay, she threatened you. She doesn't get to do that. That is assault. Start making a list of everything and documenting everytime you call the police.

Next question is how thick are your walls?

Of course, I don't think an adult has any business in hitting a child, except in extraordinary circumstances. I sure would never hit a kid in anger, never have, never will.

If you could hear her hitting the kids through a thick wall, then I would call CPS.

[the best me 6]

Geez, it's easy to say call CPS when I'm not the one doing it. And, in my opinion, spanking a kid while saying those words and in that frame of mind is NOT discipline. It's abuse. Poor kids. Could you ask the landlord about moving to another apartment, and once you know you will be moving, call? Maybe "baby daddy" won't be able to hunt you down? How scary.

[Morsaille 4]

Having been a mandatory reporter (human services field) for so many years my opinion is that you should continue to call *WHEN* 1) You hear anything that sounds like abuse. 2) Your neighbors are being disruptive and a nuisance after 10 pm. 3) You are feeling afraid for your safety, tell the person you are calling whether it is the dispatcher or CPS.

Call for the threats if you feel the need, just don't allow children to be harmed. Spanking can still be justified some of the time, but beatings cannot. At a certain point it becomes your responsibility to act. Act on the side of caution.

[Thinjen 0]

You have a right to enjoy your domain in peace. Your neighbors are creating a nuisance. Since the apartment manager is aware of the problems, they should allow you to break the lease--if you so desire.

I don't know that I would have them move. God only knows if they would have a place to go. I'm not concerned for her, only her kids.

It doesn't sound like "her baby's daddy" is in the picture. If he/they were in picture, why aren't they helping raise those kids? If she even knows who the fathers are. Vines is right, the threat is assault.

Document, document, document...times and dates and what was going on. If you really suspect that those kids are being abused, you have to act. How old are these kids? Do they really need to be up all hours of the night?

[SuperDaddy! 1]

I am also a mandatory reporter as a teacher, and you have described a clear case of verbal abuse and emotional neglect. Don't hesitate to call CPS and the police about the threat. Even if they do nothing now, the documentation is essential in establishing a pattern of behavior. I've taught many students who come from homes with UNFIT parents. No child deserves to hear their mother shouting Mother F@#*$R, nobody.

Call them tonight. Set a restraining order and document the threat, and protect those kids!

Jon

[gadgetlady 4]

Do you have the ability to protect yourself (i.e. do you own a gun)? Personally, I agree with the above posters to call the police and document everthing, but I would be nervous about doing any of it if I didn't have a gun in the house. It's a tough and scary situation.

[Alexandra 55]

I wouldn't worry overmuch about them knowing it was you that called. If they've already had four visits from the police, it's a reasonable expectation that eventually the POLICE would call CPS on this family. Do what you have to do--a call to CPS isn't going to hurt anyone. If the family is healthy and the parents care, they can satisfy the investigators and change their act enough to protect themselves. If not, better the kids are placed somewhere safer.

Don't keep this information to yourself. It's the reports NOT made that cause the most harm. Hugs to you, this must be hard. :hug:

[DeLarla 22]

One thing I know from personal experience is that kids have to be in immediate and critical danger for CPS to get involved. I had a 5 year old neighbor kid locked in her mom's car in 100 degree heat (she had the keys and refused to get out.) Mom was passed out cold, drug induced. The whole neighborhood was involved, and the cops finally showed up. I coaxed the little girl out of the car, but since she wasn't in physical harm, CPS refused to come. After that, things got worse. I did everything to get CPS to at least visit the home, but they said the cops have to show up and witness severe abuse or neglect. Sad but true (in Vegas, anyway.)

As far as noisy neighbors, I haven't won that battle yet, and I'm a rattlesnake when provoked. The law protects them, not you. I've been through it a couple times (that's why I sold my old house.) Cops came 17 times in one year and never cited them. Cops don't want to get involved, all they do is quiet the noise. One cop told me HE even sold his house since the law protects the bad guys, and there was nothing he could do to quiet his noisy 3 a.m. biker neighbors.

I got so sick of Tuesday 1 a.m. parties that my husband finally got me an airhorn. I'd wait till they finally went to bed at 3 a.m. Then about 4:30 a.m. (when they were all in deep REM sleep) I'd stand over the back wall and shoot that airhorn in their windows. Once we plugged the amp in and set it on the back wall while they were quiet and Chris played Ozzie Osbourne on the guitar (he can't play, and they were Mexican rock-haters.) For me, fighting fire with fire was the only way to shut them up.

[HunnyBun 2]

I once called the police when I was at the laundrymat (11pm) and a dad was dragging his daughter by the hair.

He kept yelling and cursing and that had me ticked off, but when he dragged her on the floor by the hair, I got pissed off and dialed 911. The cops showed up within minutes and as soon as they were there, I left. I dont know what happened, but hopefully the dad learned his lesson.

The only thing I was worried about is the dad might blame the girl for this and give her a real beating at home scary thought.

[mousecrazy 2]

I doubt the baby's daddy is anywhere near. Probably an empty threat, but a threat all the same. Now, it is difficult to deal with people like this, but I encourage you to do due diligence on behalf of the kids. I know it's scary. It's not just the bad guys that have rights...you do, too, and those kids have absolutely no choice in the matter. Please document everything, report it, and take care of yourself.

[kimalicious 5]

Unfortunately it's true about CPS in most cases. A police officer will have to instigate what they deem a real threat. I hate bothering police when it comes to noise and I am the first one to bang on a door at 2:00 am when the walls are bouncin. My step father is a police officer and thier rule was always if it is between the butt and the knees on the backside it wasn't abuse it was spanking! I am also all about spanking (I'm from Texas,HA), but the verbal abuse along with it would kill me! Please document and make a police report about her threat to you. If her baby's daddy does show up you will have the documentation there for them to know that this is a real threat. Again I live in Texas and have at least 5 guns in my 2 bedroom apartment so Like the previous poster said, do you have protection just in case? I would file a report with CPS and continue to bang on their door anytime the noise gets crazy. I would tell the landlord every incident every time. I have had someone kicked out before. One trick I played was to call to have the on site repair man come fix something while they were being that loud, he was able to hear it and complained to the office for me. Unfortunatly the landlord has laws they have to follow also and even if they tried to kick them out it could be months before anything was done and if it goes to court it could be much longer than that. Good luck and be careful!

My most recent downstairs neighbors blare their music late and I went down there and banged on the door which was the second time I have done this and 2 kids under 5 years old came to the door and when I asked if anyone else was there they both said no! Iasked them nicely to turn down the bass and they did, BUT I so wanted to call CPS on whoever their parents are for leaving them home alone. I just kept an ear out for them because maybe their mom didn't want to come to the door since she can't speak english....I will keep telling myself that is the issue, but if I see it again I am calling ASAP!

I know it is easier said than done, but if you feel threatened or if you feel that children are threatened do anything you can about it!! Let us know what you decide and again BE CAREFUL!

[Marimaru 7]

Well, I know that some sort of father figure is in the picture, because he was there this weekend. She doesn't yell at them when he is home, but he doesn't live there.

We have month to month leases here, so my landlord getting her out of there wont be a problem, fortunately. Since there's no standing lease, he doesn't even really have to give a reason that he wants her to leave.

I did call CPS today though. They took my information and my statement, and say they will be stopping by to check up on the kids. I'm kind of not sure why I hesitated before, but I'm glad I called.

[K@t 38]

I'm glad you called, its always better to err on the side of caution.

Any way, just a thought, you said that she doesn't yell when the guy is over there.....maybe ur husband could catch the guy when he's leaving and do a little chit chatting, you know like soo.... you have adorable kids (if he says thanks, indictaing the kids are his,) then maybe ur hubby can mention all the yelling and spanking. Maybe the father is more reliable then the mother and isn't aware of whats going on with the children.

[princess_n_thep 2]

Okay, I have to get involved because I am a police officer and can offer some factual data here. First off, threats are NOT an assault. They are just that, threats and intimidation. You must have more than your word here to back you up. A tape recording, other neighbors statements, etc.

As far as the noise, I get called all the darn time for noise complaints yet the people that call never want to be contacted or known. WE can't cite for civil noise complaints. Its not that we don't care, its not that we don't want you to sleep, but we need someone to stand up and say "I want to press charges, I want to be the victim in this case, I will go to court and testify if need be." Yes, the first time, quiet it down, the second time, cite them. BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE A WITNESS AND SOMEONE WILLING TO BE A VICTIM. So when you all are calling about noise complaints on your neighbor... when the dispatcher asks if you want contact, say YES!!! The ordinances in place are not protecting the loud neighbor, they are protecting their right to not be cited without someone willing to be the victim and testify against them. And in order for that to happen, they have every right to know who is accusing them of the ordinance infraction. Loud and distrubing noises coming from the residences are protected by local ordinance only, there are no state or federal laws for that. Each city has their own times and wording. For example, for my city it is midnight-5am for "quiet zoning" and is a Class 1 Misdemeanor for violation IF I have a victim willing to jump through the hoops with me.

As far as the police witnessing before CPS is involved is not true. Yes, they do sometimes come at our command, but there have been numerous times I have made reports and called them and they didn't come. They are overworked, understaffed, and their policies and procedures suck. Unfortunately, being a shitty asshole of a parent doesn't constitute gross negligence and abuse. Spanking or cursing at your children is not abuse according to any of the state or federal standards in the US. It just means your a shitty parent in any normal parents eyes. They can't take your kids for that. I wish they could, but they can't. If you SEE them hit in an area other than the traditional buttocks, and you feel that it has caused injury to the child (there must be injury such as bruising, broken bones, etc) then you should definitely make a report. You can always call, but remember, they are overworked already and doing paperwork on your case that will go nowhere is keeping them from another case that may go somewhere. There is no "file" that gets kept on them. If it is unfounded, the case is expunged and erased. This keeps parents from sabotaging each other when the marriage is in a fight for custody. They can't say that the other has a "file" unless a charge was founded as valid.

I would definitely keep a journal of the incidents and complain to your landlord. But unless you are willing to take the additional steps needed to go legally against them, it is a mere civil matter and the police will not take action.