Dukan diet

[ElfiePoo 109]

Cavemen didnt do Atkins or Dukan any more than they ate McDonalds and white bread - calories calories calories. Atkins works for some people, just like Dukan will because they genuinely do better on low carb high Protein diets, but it works for MORE people simply because its lowere calorie than what they were eating.

Actually, that's not quite true. For those of us with an intolerance to the carbs found in fruits, grains and starches...the type of calories is just as important as how many. One 2 year study that just finished up this past summer showed that a person on a low cal, high fat diet could eat several hundred more calories per day than a person on a low carb, high fat diet.

On a high carb diet, I gain weight. Not everyone gets fat by overeating. Some of us got fat while we dieted, eating the diet recommended by the ADA and others of their ilk. I gained weight on Weight Watchers.

I think we should be a bit more supportive of each other and less condemning of the WOE they choose to follow...and that comment was not aimed at you Jachut. I know your feelings on low carb diets in general but you are always extremely generous and nonjudgmental (for the most part ) in your responses.

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[ElfiePoo 109]

follow your doctor's instructions, not some person on a discussion forum.

No. Listen to your doctor, do your own research and put no more faith in him than you would any other 'reference source' and then make your own determination because you are the one who has to live with the consequences.

My husband's first wife followed the doctor's instructions. She's dead as a result and the insurance company was happy to settle the malpractice suit out of court and they were thankful that all he wanted were two small trust funds for the boys and coverage of all of her medical costs.

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[Jachut 487]

I certainly agree with that, wholeheartedly. Lapband surgeons are SURGEONS, they are not dieticians and reading this forum over the years has made it very obvious that they operate mainly on their own personal feelings and beliefs on diet and not to a small extent on whatever will produce the best stats in a given time period for thier clinics too. Nutritionists are also not dieticians and are very like personal trainers. There are good ones, but it is not a difficult qualification to achieve - in australian anyway its back of the cornflake box stuff - and often based more on current fashion than individual attention.

Case in point - I visited a dietician recently - a dietician, not a nutritionist. My lapband doc send me, my weight is terribly low and I cannot gain at the moment. I am having a lot of trouble with chronic diarrhoea with my ileostomy and I had just come out of hospital where I was treated for a bowel obstruction. So I went to see this dietician with a view to working out how to eat low residue without living on a horrible white bread and Pasta diet - I may believe in eating carbs but I dont believe in living on them or taking in large quantities of processed ones! Seriously, this woman had absolutely NO idea how to treat an ostomate. She sent me on my way with her standard "diet sheet" for gaining, which included a lot of the red alert foods for ostomates - wholegrains, lots of dairy, blah blah blah. It wasnt tailored to me at all, and she totally ignored the whole point - that my diet needs to be low residue (which basically means low fibre). You really are on your own to a large extent when working out your perfect diet, anyone you visit is going to push their preference and they're unlikely to be well versed in several ways of eating, so that you could sit with them and really work out hte pros and cons and what might be best for you personally.

You definitely need to educate yourself and come to a reasonable decision about what you believe and what works best for you.

[Pammy S Lewis 2]

And I can cite just as many opposing view by experts who believe the current recommendations are the cause of obesity in this country and use the *exact* same medical studies that the traditionalist use, but come to a different conclusion.

Now...if that's what you want to believe...no problem...but do we really need to trash another WOE just because it does not agree with our own opinion...or the opinions of so-called experts?

Interesting...Atkins runs counter to evidence-based studies? Hmmm...I guess they missed the 5 year study done by Harvard (not to mention a number of other studies) that showed that a low carb, high fat diet did not result in all the problems they thought they would see. Bad cholesterol and blood sugars dropped more and more weight was lost on the low carb, high fat than the low carb, low fat. You might read "The Great Cholesterol Con" or "Why We Get Fat". You might be amazed at the questional 'studies' many of our medical communities nutritional beliefs are based on.

No, I'm not a dietician...but I am an intelligent person who loves to read and when I read things that make no sense, I go find out why. I don't just believe what someone with lots of little letters after their name says.

I'm not going to get into a peeing contest with people. Follow whatever WOE of eating you're happy with. You know, I don't go around the forum telling people that the way they're eating is wrong...but I find it highly amusing that when "Atkins" comes up, everyone crawls out of the woodwork to bash it...despite never having read his book. I have to wonder why people are so threatened by the idea that a low carb, high fat diet is actually healthy?

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for the 3rd time, i have read the book and i did Atkins and other low carb diets for years. i am actually highly in favor of low carb diets for some people. they worked great for me! what i am not in favor of is people acting like they know everything and if anyone poses an alternate point of view, it's immediately shot down and the person is accused of being misinformed or not reading the book. you seem to be respected on these boards and i have a difficult time figuring out why that is because all i have seen in the few weeks i have been here is a know it all attitude and critical comments in numerous theads.

[ElfiePoo 109]

Nutritionists are also not dieticians and are very like personal trainers. There are good ones, but it is not a difficult qualification to achieve - in australian anyway its back of the cornflake box stuff - and often based more on current fashion than individual attention.

Sadly, even dieticians knowledge tends to be based on what is currently acceptable. I have both a Bachelor's and Master's and discovered that I could take the classes from both and would need only 4 semesters of degree specific classes to get my bachelor's as a dietician. I managed to make it through 2 semesters and it became exceedingly difficult because when I challenged long held beliefs with actual studies that have been done over the last decade (and could prove it with references), they shut me down. Would not even look at the material.

My husband says I should just shut up, regurgitate, get my degree, suffer through the internship and then try to make changes from within. Personally, I think I'm getting too old to be beating my head against brick skulls and closed minds that believe there's only one right way.

[mousek 4]

Sadly, even dieticians knowledge tends to be based on what is currently acceptable. I have both a Bachelor's and Master's and discovered that I could take the classes from both and would need only 4 semesters of degree specific classes to get my bachelor's as a dietician. I managed to make it through 2 semesters and it became exceedingly difficult because when I challenged long held beliefs with actual studies that have been done over the last decade (and could prove it with references), they shut me down. Would not even look at the material.

My husband says I should just shut up, regurgitate, get my degree, suffer through the internship and then try to make changes from within. Personally, I think I'm getting too old to be beating my head against brick skulls and closed minds that believe there's only one right way.

Just on a personal note. I used to see a chiropractor who was also a naturopath. He advocated low carb. He helped a lot of people reverse diabetes, ward off incurable cancer at least for a few years and so forth. He used to work in conjunction with doctors at hospitals. he absolutely forbade anything white as in flour, potatoes, bread and absolutely no fruit. I guess his strong words stick in my head even after 8 years. I lost the most weight when i was under his guidance and also took green supplements and B12 so forth. It can be hard to stick to though. what I strive for now is to stick to that way of eating most of the time (75-80%). He used to tell my sister and i that if we really had to have some of his forbidden foods that we should have it on the weekend and get it out of our system. He retired about 5 years ago - he's about 90 now. His office used to be lined up for hours. he didn't take appointments. You just show up at 5:30 a.m. in the morning or thereafter and wait. It seems there are differing points of views, that's for sure. I like low carb because i don't feel bloated but i do once in a while like to have italian bread, Pasta, nice piece of cake....

[ElfiePoo 109]

what i am not in favor of is people acting like they know everything and if anyone poses an alternate point of view, it's immediately shot down and the person is accused of being misinformed or not reading the book.

No I don't shoot people down as being misinformed for having an alternate point of view. I do point out where they are in error...and it's not my opinion...it's based on facts.

For example, when someone posts to the board that Atkins is all Protein and fat but they like another diet better because it allows you to have vegetables, then I correct their error. Atkins, from his original 1972 books, has *always* included vegetables.

When someone posts that Atkins is all about eating a pound of bacon a week, then I correct their error. Nowhere did Atkins ever say you could eat a pound of bacon a week. In fact, he made it quite clear that if you eat too much fat, you'll most likely gain weight, or at the least, not lose. Nowhere did he say you *had* to eat fat until it was flowing out your ears.

When someone posts that Atkins is a fad diet when the very definition of a fad diet is that it is not nutritionally sound and cannot be sustained for life, then I correct their error because it is nutritionally sounds and can be sustained for life. Even better, current studies are concluding that a low carb, high fat diet is actually more beneficial (not just in weight loss) than a low carb, low fat diet.

So when someone says they read Atkins and followed it for years, but still doesn't understand the above, then I can only believe they really didn't read the book and they might have been following *something* but it wasn't Atkins.

As for any critical posts...I am unfailingly polite to those who deserve it...but when I am attacked, I don't sit back quietly although I do try not to make it personal. Any perception that I have been anything other than that is...well...just that person's perception and something I have no control over.

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[ElfiePoo 109]

He helped a lot of people reverse diabetes, ward off incurable cancer at least for a few years and so forth. He used to work in conjunction with doctors at hospitals. he absolutely forbade anything white as in flour, potatoes, bread and absolutely no fruit. It seems there are differing points of views, that's for sure. I like low carb because i don't feel bloated but i do once in a while like to have italian bread, Pasta, nice piece of cake....

While I believe a low carb, higher fat diet free of grains, starches and fruit (and obviously sugar) is a healthy diet, I also recognize that not everyone can stick to that WOE long term...and it may be unnecessary for them to do so if their bodies can deal with those types of carbs.

I was never a junk food eater. I got fat eating the very diet that the current regime considers to be 'balanced'. I went from hypoglycemic to diabetes on that same diet. Now I'm grain, fruit and starch free...losing weight at a steady pace, feeling wonderful and, best of all, of all my diabetic meds. In addition, a lot of the symptoms doctors designated as 'chronic fatigue' completely disappeared. So, yeah, I miss my fruit more than I miss everything else. I'd love to have even a small dish of brown rice...but the reality is that my particular metabolic disorder doesn't handle these carbs and I'd be foolish to eat them.

If you can tolerate them, and handle them, then by all means why should you give them up? After all, there is no one correct way of eating in a healthy manner...although there may only be one right way for each of us.

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[mousek 4]

While I believe a low carb, higher fat diet free of grains, starches and fruit (and obviously sugar) is a healthy diet, I also recognize that not everyone can stick to that WOE long term...and it may be unnecessary for them to do so if their bodies can deal with those types of carbs.

I was never a junk food eater. I got fat eating the very diet that the current regime considers to be 'balanced'. I went from hypoglycemic to diabetes on that same diet. Now I'm grain, fruit and starch free...losing weight at a steady pace, feeling wonderful and, best of all, of all my diabetic meds. In addition, a lot of the symptoms doctors designated as 'chronic fatigue' completely disappeared. So, yeah, I miss my fruit more than I miss everything else. I'd love to have even a small dish of brown rice...but the reality is that my particular metabolic disorder doesn't handle these carbs and I'd be foolish to eat them.

If you can tolerate them, and handle them, then by all means why should you give them up? After all, there is no one correct way of eating in a healthy manner...although there may only be one right way for each of us.

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I'm not too good at tollerating carbs but when i have a fixation in my mind pizza! I eat a good amount and it seems to cure the craving for at least a month. As i say once a week to have something a bit different is what I'm fond of doing.

[ElfiePoo 109]

pizza...I remember that...I think.

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[mousek 4]

pizza...I remember that...I think.

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chuckle chuckle

[mousek 4]

I know people who've switched to Dukan from Atkins, but after a couple weeks on low fat, they switched back. Their weight loss actually slowed. A two year study (by Harvard, I think) showed that people on a low carb, low fat diet improved their cholesterol by 11%, but people on Atkins (low carb, high fat) improved by 23%...and lost more weight. So, personally, I don't see the point in torturing myself with low fat.

The other *big* difference between Atkins and Dukan is that Atkins seems to stress the importance of vegetables. Even during the first 2 week, very low carb induction period, you're supposed to have 2 cups of salad every day. After the 2 weeks, you can increase it to whatever your critical carb level is. Most people try to stay under 45 carbs for faster weight loss. I eat a cup of vegetables with my lunch and another with my dinner.

Dukan, in Stage 2, mixes Protein only days with Protein and vegie days (e.g. 5 days of protein only alternated with 4 days of protein and vegie).

Both work. It mainly comes down to what you can live with. Personally...I'd miss my vegies. They're the only thing that keeps me sane, although some would argue the sanity.

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In addition to the cup of vegetables with lunch and dinner (i'm assuming not a salad? ), do you also have a salad in addition to the 2 cups of veg?

[ElfiePoo 109]

In addition to the cup of vegetables with lunch and dinner (i'm assuming not a salad?), do you also have a salad in addition to the 2 cups of veg?

No, I'll either have a salad or the vegies although since the vegies are so low carb, you could have both if you could really eat that much and/or felt that hungry.

Lately I've been having 2 scrambled eggs for Breakfast and a large salad for lunch with 3 oz of Protein (partly cheese, partly rotisserie chicken cut up and maybe a chopped hard boiled egg) and blue cheese dressing. Then dinner is 3 oz of meat with a cup of vegies like green Beans, broccoli, asparagus, etc.

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[mousek 4]

No, I'll either have a salad or the vegies although since the vegies are so low carb, you could have both if you could really eat that much and/or felt that hungry.

Lately I've been having 2 scrambled eggs for Breakfast and a large salad for lunch with 3 oz of Protein (partly cheese, partly rotisserie chicken cut up and maybe a chopped hard boiled egg) and blue cheese dressing. Then dinner is 3 oz of meat with a cup of vegies like green Beans, broccoli, asparagus, etc.

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that salad sounds yummy, i've been on on liquids for 2 weeks. Are you sticking to the lower carb vegs?

[sparkplug 106]

Sadly, even dieticians knowledge tends to be based on what is currently acceptable. I have both a Bachelor's and Master's and discovered that I could take the classes from both and would need only 4 semesters of degree specific classes to get my bachelor's as a dietician. I managed to make it through 2 semesters and it became exceedingly difficult because when I challenged long held beliefs with actual studies that have been done over the last decade (and could prove it with references), they shut me down. Would not even look at the material.

My husband says I should just shut up, regurgitate, get my degree, suffer through the internship and then try to make changes from within. Personally, I think I'm getting too old to be beating my head against brick skulls and closed minds that believe there's only one right way.

I believe you all have good points on these diets. I did every diet in the book, including Atkins and that is why I am on here with a lap band. None of them worked forever, it was just part of the yo-yo dieting I have done for 40 years. I agree you need to listen to your body and do what you feel is best for you, with some advice from your doctor. I question everything and everybody, even the doctors like Elfie said her husband's late wife died from Dr. advice. I have seen that time and time again. Just do what you feel is comfortable with some common sense and I try the recommendations that you all have put on here to add to my own decisions and have been to goal for over 1 1/2 years. This is a very informative site and each person needs to pick out what they feel works for them from all of this advice. I have and it has worked, thanks to all of you for your advice and I will do what I have to do in the end.