one less bad food on my list!

[Spartan 4]

Interesting stuff.

I don’t usually return to threads I have posted in. I say what I have to say, and then move on. But I saw something that MaineJackie posted in another thread, and it reminded me that I wanted to reply to something she said in this thread. So, I see that some tiny minds here have turned a legitimate observation into some kind of massive judgmental tirade on my part. Nice Morph.

This place is great. There’s always some good comedy to be found if you look for it. You guys are like a box of hamsters. Too much fun.

Ok, I’ll start with this one from “StateofZen”:

“Sure, yes.

But that's part of what the band does-- helps people learn and makes it easier to make healthy choices. Why does it ultimately matter why she isn't eating the wraps anymore? In the end, the band helped her learn a better choice.”

Does it Really? I think not. The only thing the band actually TEACHES you is the kind and amount of food that will cause you PAIN if you consume it. It doesn’t “teach” you that something was unhealthy. The band did NOT “help her learn a better choice”. Who knows what was next on her menu. Deep-fried Snickers?

“Why does it ultimately matter why she isn't eating the wraps anymore?”

It matters because of how she arrived at the decision. She did NOT say “oh….this is not a good choice because it is not healthy and will NOT move me close to my goal of good health and proper weight”. She made the choice because it HURT her….caused her PAIN…she got STUCK….that’s IT. If she made the choice based upon the knowledge that she was consuming something that was NOT particularly healthy, then that would be fine. But she did not. She withdrew her choice of Wraps as a meal choice because it got STUCK….NOT because it was unhealthy. I find it very difficult to understand how you cannot “get” that.

“In the end, the band helped her learn a better choice.”

Again, no it did NOT. It only helped her learn a DIFFERENT choice. And that could be most anything. It ONLY “taught” her that those wraps were painful to eat. Period.

“Eating unhealthy food-- enjoying it on occasion-- is not a moral failure.”

Would you care to point out precisely and exactly WHERE I said that….or even IMPLIED that eating unhealthily was a “moral failure”? You can’t….because I didn’t. And I wouldn’t. However, having said that, I will say that a certain case COULD be made for the concept that one DOES have a moral responsibility to their families and loved ones to be as healthy as possible. If there are people who DEPEND on you for their physical well-being (son, daughter, spouse, etc…) then yes, you MIGHT be able to consider it to be a moral responsibility to keep yourself healthy and fit, to be able to look after their needs…..AND to not become a burden to them. It could also be argued that individuals have a reasonable responsibility to SOCIETY to be as healthy as possible, for nearly the same reason….to AVOID becoming a burden to the medical system, the insurance system, and to society as a whole. I think that it only makes sense that people should at least give consideration to the idea that consciously becoming healthy makes them a better father, mother son, daughter, citizen, etc.

“I will straight up say-- if I could still eat french fries without getting a stuck feeling, I would. *Gasp* Every once in a while, I would eat 1 or 2 fries (that's all my appetite would ever allow after my protein) just for the shear enjoyment of the taste. That does not make me a bad person or a band failure.”

Once again, would you care to point out where I said ANYONE would be a failure or a bad person for consuming something that might be considered in opposition to a positive Lap band experience? Hmm? Point it out, please….I’m waiting…….

But here is something that apparently you have not considered (One thing of many, apparently). YOU might be able to have those couple of French Fries. YOU might be able to have a whole handful of fries with no ill effects other than a slowdown in your weight loss. But there is a significant percentage of the WLS Community for whom that would be a disaster. You might be unaware of it, but a very large part of the Obese population is in that condition because of an ADDICTION to food. And for those people, getting even a BITE of their specific “problem food” could cause them to binge on ANY food that is available, that would make it through the Lap Band. Someone in this thread said that the Lap Band would “keep them from Binging”. Not true. It might keep you from binging on Steak and Lobster, but it’s not gonna keep you from binging on ice cream, shakes, Malts, Yogurt, smoothies, mashed potatoes, gravy….it’s a LONG list.

I am not going to go into the whole food addiction issue here, suffice to say that it is a VERY big problem and it IS the problem behind many, many cases of obesity. Those of you who DO have this as the core reason behind your particular weight problem are treading on dangerous Water by having that little “treat” so you don’t feel “deprived”, because you “deserve” it, and “everything is ok in moderation”….all a bunch of bull.

So, for an alcoholic, you are suggesting that it would just fine to have “one or two shots of Jack just for the sheer enjoyment of the taste”….right? Because that is, in essence what you saying to people with a food addiction by telling them they can still eat whatever they want,….”in moderation”. Again…a Big subject, but worth exploring and worth being AWARE of…..particularly by someone who refers to themselves as a “Psychologist”. Right.

S.

[jenn79co 13]

Interesting stuff.

I don’t usually return to threads I have posted in. I say what I have to say, and then move on. But I saw something that MaineJackie posted in another thread, and it reminded me that I wanted to reply to something she said in this thread. So, I see that some tiny minds here have turned a legitimate observation into some kind of massive judgmental tirade on my part. Nice Morph.

This place is great. There’s always some good comedy to be found if you look for it. You guys are like a box of hamsters. Too much fun.

Ok, I’ll start with this one from “StateofZen”:

“Sure, yes.

But that's part of what the band does-- helps people learn and makes it easier to make healthy choices. Why does it ultimately matter why she isn't eating the wraps anymore? In the end, the band helped her learn a better choice.”

Does it Really? I think not. The only thing the band actually TEACHES you is the kind and amount of food that will cause you PAIN if you consume it. It doesn’t “teach” you that something was unhealthy. The band did NOT “help her learn a better choice”. Who knows what was next on her menu. Deep-fried Snickers?

“Why does it ultimately matter why she isn't eating the wraps anymore?”

It matters because of how she arrived at the decision. She did NOT say “oh….this is not a good choice because it is not healthy and will NOT move me close to my goal of good health and proper weight”. She made the choice because it HURT her….caused her PAIN…she got STUCK….that’s IT. If she made the choice based upon the knowledge that she was consuming something that was NOT particularly healthy, then that would be fine. But she did not. She withdrew her choice of Wraps as a meal choice because it got STUCK….NOT because it was unhealthy. I find it very difficult to understand how you cannot “get” that.

“In the end, the band helped her learn a better choice.”

Again, no it did NOT. It only helped her learn a DIFFERENT choice. And that could be most anything. It ONLY “taught” her that those wraps were painful to eat. Period.

“Eating unhealthy food-- enjoying it on occasion-- is not a moral failure.”

Would you care to point out precisely and exactly WHERE I said that….or even IMPLIED that eating unhealthily was a “moral failure”? You can’t….because I didn’t. And I wouldn’t. However, having said that, I will say that a certain case COULD be made for the concept that one DOES have a moral responsibility to their families and loved ones to be as healthy as possible. If there are people who DEPEND on you for their physical well-being (son, daughter, spouse, etc…) then yes, you MIGHT be able to consider it to be a moral responsibility to keep yourself healthy and fit, to be able to look after their needs…..AND to not become a burden to them. It could also be argued that individuals have a reasonable responsibility to SOCIETY to be as healthy as possible, for nearly the same reason….to AVOID becoming a burden to the medical system, the insurance system, and to society as a whole. I think that it only makes sense that people should at least give consideration to the idea that consciously becoming healthy makes them a better father, mother son, daughter, citizen, etc.

“I will straight up say-- if I could still eat french fries without getting a stuck feeling, I would. *Gasp* Every once in a while, I would eat 1 or 2 fries (that's all my appetite would ever allow after my protein) just for the shear enjoyment of the taste. That does not make me a bad person or a band failure.”

Once again, would you care to point out where I said ANYONE would be a failure or a bad person for consuming something that might be considered in opposition to a positive Lap band experience? Hmm? Point it out, please….I’m waiting…….

But here is something that apparently you have not considered (One thing of many, apparently). YOU might be able to have those couple of French Fries. YOU might be able to have a whole handful of fries with no ill effects other than a slowdown in your weight loss. But there is a significant percentage of the WLS Community for whom that would be a disaster. You might be unaware of it, but a very large part of the Obese population is in that condition because of an ADDICTION to food. And for those people, getting even a BITE of their specific “problem food” could cause them to binge on ANY food that is available, that would make it through the Lap Band. Someone in this thread said that the Lap Band would “keep them from Binging”. Not true. It might keep you from binging on Steak and Lobster, but it’s not gonna keep you from binging on ice cream, shakes, Malts, Yogurt, smoothies, mashed potatoes, gravy….it’s a LONG list.

I am not going to go into the whole food addiction issue here, suffice to say that it is a VERY big problem and it IS the problem behind many, many cases of obesity. Those of you who DO have this as the core reason behind your particular weight problem are treading on dangerous Water by having that little “treat” so you don’t feel “deprived”, because you “deserve” it, and “everything is ok in moderation”….all a bunch of bull.

So, for an alcoholic, you are suggesting that it would just fine to have “one or two shots of Jack just for the sheer enjoyment of the taste”….right? Because that is, in essence what you saying to people with a food addiction by telling them they can still eat whatever they want,….”in moderation”. Again…a Big subject, but worth exploring and worth being AWARE of…..particularly by someone who refers to themselves as a “Psychologist”. Right.

S.

Blah blah blah blah

[Humming Bird 275]

This thread is an interesting read. There are many good points, including Spartan's, that make me think of my own journey. Yes, there are foods that I avoid just because they cause me pain. Health was not my number one reason for getting the band. I try avoid most fast food because it is both unhealthy and it causes pain. Wendy's chili is one fast food I still eat sometimes. I was a fast food junkie and that played a big role in my former obesity. I loved it bacause it was fast and tasted good to me. Now it doesn't even sound good. I'm glad the band has helped me with that. If I wasn't eating food from the drive-thru I was frying everything at home. I can fry anything! Well, after being banded, I can no longer tolerate anything breaded or fried.

[cheryl2586 3,053]

Spartan I have to totally agree with your last post because I am a sugar addict and if I have one piece of candy yes I will binge for weeks on end on candy which I was told I havent dealt with my addiction issues and yes I have by never ever eating candy again. You think that one piece of this and one piece of that is fine and a 20lb weight loss. Its not. If it pleases you then by all means do it no one is going to be watching you however when you put it in public view that you are a lap band patient, had surgery because you wanted to lose weight and then broadcast to probably a million people reading it that you got stuck on something that was pretty much a days worth of calories then yes you are going to have people who are not going to be supportive. Maybe they are not going to be nice about it or sugar coat it but say how they feel at that moment. As I have said it is everyones right on here to write what they want because we have the right to free speech. Some of us need a kick in the butt when we are not doing something right. I dont think anyones intent is to be mean but to make you see if you are newly banded and already developing bad habits you are setting yourself up for a big fail in a big way. We all got overweight because we have eating issues and if you cant resolve them with the band then probably you wont. You have to expect when you post something that you are going to get all kinds of reactions from people not just what you want to hear. I would say its alright to make bad food choices when you are at goal weight and maintaining for a long period. That is just my opinion which I am intitled to however everyone can do what they want that is your choice also.

[stateofzen 46]

Oh Spartan. Tell me again in a super long preachy post about how you never said XYZ and then follow it up by preaching about XYZ. You certainly proved me wrong!

Yes, I'm saying alcoholics can have just one drink and be fine. That's exactly what I'm saying.

The OP and others were sharing their own experiences with the band. Yes, many people who are obese have an "addiction" to food and just one bite could be problematic for staying on track. That is absolutely not my experience. It is also not everyone's experience on this site. So me posting that I would occasionally eat a french fry if I could is not the equivalent of telling a room fool of alcoholics to drink in moderation. Nice try, though. I love hyperbolic strawman arguments. Care to call me a Nazi next?

Each person must take a good look at their own behaviors and the self-talk behind those behaviors to understand what's happening for them personally. If obesity were a one cause-one size fits all problem, then we'd have cured it by now.

For the rest of us folks reading, here is what I'm saying: Learning is learning. Period. Learning through positivity is more pleasant and better in the long run, but learning through a negative consequence can still be effective in the end. I'm sure just about everyone has had at least one painful experience in life that they have no wish to repeat because of the memory of the pain.

If this were a post about how the OP wanted to learn how to eat around the band so she could keep eating the wraps every day, well first, I'd look at the nutrition info and see that it actually isn't as horrible a choice as it could be at 280calories and 14g Protein, and then maybe we'd have an in-your-face tough love conversation about trying to sabotage one's lifestyle change. But since the OP started a thread to say, hey, guess I learned my lesson with that one-- then the preaching is just a bit much in my opinion. If you're perfect-- well, ok. Good for you! But I'm not and neither are the rest of us and I can't imagine why you'd be trolling a message board in your perfection when everyone knows sitting on your butt in front of a computer screen is a very unhealthy decision! You could be exercising, and you have a moral obligation to your loved ones to be 100% healthy, 100% of the time doncha know

[Teejo 0]

"I disagree. In this day and age it is possible to find something reasonable most EVERYWHERE. It might not be something you particularly want, but guess what…..eating what you WANTED got you FAT. "

NOT strictly true, IMO. I've been thinking about this topic. I'm almost 7 months post-op and finding I can eat almost anything except for meat thats too dry or most breads. HOWEVER, ithe biggest change for me is the AMOUNT of food I now eat. It wasnt so much the kinds of foods that made ME fat but TOO MUCH of those foods.

ANyway, I remember when I was a little kid and got sick after eating a hamburger. It was the FLU, not the burger itself that made me sick but I would NOT TOUCH a hamburger for YEARS after that, associating the being sick with the burger itself. So, for myself, I give a "bad" food more than one chance because its so easy to get stuck when you don't chew properly. Food is FUEL..not "bad". I still love pizza but instead of being able to eat 1/2 a pizza by myself, I get 1 slice and I'm happy. I REFUSE to eat like a rabbit for the rest of my life.

[Birinak 19]

Although I agreed with SOME of the logic of Spartan's post, he was wrong in other ways. Well, he is first wrong in his presumptuous and rude attitude toward the OP for her personal decision. Let's say that she had done something to be sorry for and let's say that she owed her family or the greater society for her "grievous" wrongs; there are aspects of everyone's lives that could stand improvement, that negatively affect other sentient beings, and linkages can always be made from those actions to a negative effect on society in general (in fact, this is almost always a popular excuse used by certain people in society in order to demand a legislative control on the personal and private behaviour or speech of others). But, the link to a negative effect on society of a private and personal action is usually tenuous and, Spartan should admit that, even if the links were not tenuous but very real, his justification is still just an obvious excuse to be rude to strangers. You can tell by his tone. Come out of the closet, put on your big-boy pants, and be rude in the open without recourse to false justifications. Also, any negative effect of her private actions upon herself that radiates to her family is up to her family to attempt to influence through shame or an intervention. As long as the actions are afflicted on herself, even if their effects indirectly emotionally interfere with another's feelings, it's the business of her friends, her family, and herself.

The next problem is of a logical, not moral or emotional, nature. He justifies his shaming of the OP also by claiming that some (as he admits, not all) fat people deal with food in the exact same manner as a drug addict. He proceeds to make a generality about the entire overweight community's one true way to weight-loss, as suggested by him. And then, he shames a dieting person, whom he doesn't know, but who is non-compliant with his idea of managing food addictions. Now, I agree with the view that, at least, many obese people feel that they have a genuine food addiction (in the literal sense, on par with other addictions). I also agree that, if it is on par with an official addiction, they should avoid even a little bit of their trigger food, in the same sense that drinking just one shot of alcohol wouldn't be a successful strategy for a recovering alcoholic.

However, you can't umbrella all people struggling with weight under the same psychological motivations and prescribe the same treatment for all. For a good fraction of obese people, the problem that needs control might be of portion-sizes (or of other kinds), as in, general over-eating, and a sedentary lifestyle. Those two categories apply to me. Because I now understand the underlying motivations or nature of my struggle with my weight, I also know that, actually, I can have one chocolate bar and not go into a day or week long binge. I could psychologically tolerate a wrap in the morning (I don't because I rarely went to fast food places, even before my band, and I probably couldn't get it down now) and not use it as an excuse to carry on binging because "my diet's ruined, so I'll have to start again on Monday."

My problem is that I would overeat with good foods too. I never have been in the habit of eating bad foods, with the exception of chocolate. Even before the band, I stopped drinking soda altogether as a child, I always love eating vegetables, I'm a vegetarian (not for anything noble, like animal rights hahaha), and I really dislike sugar-based candy. I just have a serious problem with stopping myself from eating until I'm stuffed and an extreme distaste for exercise.

But, how would your strategy help me? I still need to eat, so unlike the alcoholic who could potentially physically live without his addiction, I can't. The band, for me, is a perfect implement. I am barely on a diet right now. Yet, I calculated that my average loss is 2 pounds a week since I got the band 6.5 months ago, and the rate of loss is getting faster with more fills. It's effective and steady weight-loss, at a rate recommended by researchers. And guess what? The theory that you shouldn't deprive yourself unnecessarily of a treat works very well for me. I eat one to two chocolate bars a week. That's usually the limit to my unhealthy eating, although I don't abstain from special occasions (less than once a month). So, I never feel like: "I can't wait until this is over, when I've lost all my weight, so I can get back to real eating!" I could literally go on like this until the end of my hopefully prolonged life. I never said that about any diet before now, because nothing helped with Portion Control. If I want a treat, I'll have it. Psychologically, this is the best strategy for me. Making small but regular changes that I can maintain for a lifetime and getting the band for the problem of portion-control.

And, that was a rather weak attempt--trying to say that other dieters will come on this forum and be negatively influenced if they read our strategy of moderation and managed indulgences. By that same token, you should be held responsible for anyone that reads your posts and adopts your general aura of ill-will and misanthropy.

Crap, I am atrociously long-winded today. I just can't be concise. I still maintain that if you keep reading passed a decent length, you've brought the head-ache on yourself

[jenn79co 13]

Although I agreed with SOME of the logic of Spartan's post, he was wrong in other ways. Well, he is first wrong in his presumptuous and rude attitude toward the OP for her personal decision. Let's say that she had done something to be sorry for and let's say that she owed her family or the greater society for her "grievous" wrongs; there are aspects of everyone's lives that could stand improvement, that negatively affect other sentient beings, and linkages can always be made from those actions to a negative effect on society in general (in fact, this is almost always a popular excuse used by certain people in society in order to demand a legislative control on the personal and private behaviour or speech of others). But, the link to a negative effect on society of a private and personal action is usually tenuous and, Spartan should admit that, even if the links were not tenuous but very real, his justification is still just an obvious excuse to be rude to strangers. You can tell by his tone. Come out of the closet, put on your big-boy pants, and be rude in the open without recourse to false justifications. Also, any negative effect of her private actions upon herself that radiates to her family is up to her family to attempt to influence through shame or an intervention. As long as the actions are afflicted on herself, even if their effects indirectly emotionally interfere with another's feelings, it's the business of her friends, her family, and herself.

The next problem is of a logical, not moral or emotional, nature. He justifies his shaming of the OP also by claiming that some (as he admits, not all) fat people deal with food in the exact same manner as a drug addict. He proceeds to make a generality about the entire overweight community's one true way to weight-loss, as suggested by him. And then, he shames a dieting person, who he doesn't know, but who is non-compliant with his idea of managing food addictions. Now, I agree with the view that, at least, many obese people feel that they have a genuine food addiction (in the literal sense, on par with other addictions). I also agree that, if it is on par with an official addiction, they should avoid even a little bit of their trigger food, in the same sense that drinking just one shot of alcohol wouldn't be a successful strategy for a recovering alcoholic.

However, you can't umbrella all people struggling with weight under the same psychological motivations and prescribe the same treatment. For a good fraction of obese people, the problem that needs control might be portion-sizes (or others), as in, general over-eating, and a sedentary lifestyle. Those two categories apply to me. Because I now understand the underlying motivations or nature of my struggle with my weight, I also know that actually, I can have one chocolate bar and not go into a day or week long binge. I could have psychologically tolerate a wrap in the morning (I don't because I rarely went to fast food places, even before my band, and I probably couldn't get it down now) and not use it as an excuse to carry on binging because "my diet's ruined, so I'll have to start again on Monday."

My problem is that I would overeat with good foods too. I never have been in the habit of eating bad foods, with the exception of chocolate. Even before the band, I stopped drinking soda altogether as a child, I always love eating vegetables, I'm a vegetarian (not for anything noble, like animal rights hahaha), and I really dislike sugar-based candy. I just have a serious problem with stopping myself from eating until I'm stuffed and an extreme distaste for exercise.

But, how would your strategy help me? I still need to eat, so unlike the alcoholic who could potentially physically live without his addiction, I can't. The band, for me, is a perfect implement. I am barely on a diet right now. Yet, I calculated that my average loss is 2 pounds a week since I got the band 6.5 months ago, and the rate of loss is getting faster with more fills. It's effective and steady weight-loss, at a rate recommended by researchers. And guess what? The theory that you shouldn't deprive yourself unnecessarily of a treat works very well for me. I eat one to two chocolate bars a week. That's usually the limit to my unhealthy eating, although I don't abstain from special occasions (less than once a month). I never feel like: "I can't wait until this is over, when I've lost all my weight, so I can get back to real eating!" I could literally go on like this until the end of my hopefully prolonged life. I never said that about any diet before now, because nothing helped with Portion Control. If I want a treat, I'll have it. Psychologically, this is the best strategy for me. Make small but regular changes that I can maintain for a lifetime and get the band for the problem of portion-control.

And, that was a rather weak attempt--trying to say that other dieters will come on this forum and be negatively influenced if they read our strategy of moderation and managed indulgences. By that same token, you should be held responsible for anyone that reads your posts and adopts your general aura of ill-will and misanthropy.

Crap, I am atrociously long-winded today. I just can't be concise. I still maintain that if you keep reading passed a decent length, you've brought the head-ache on yourself

You are starting to become one of my favorite people on here!

[stateofzen 46]

You are starting to become one of my favorite people on here!

I know, right? She just said what I was trying to say, only with less off-putting sarcasm.

[Pinkygirl 34]

I am soooooo done with this thread.

Spartan still didn't answer my question!

And again, IF I COULD HAVE CHOOSEN HEALTHIER FOODS AND LOSE WEIGHT ON MY OWN I WOULD HAVE NOT GOTTEN THE BAND>>>> THE BAND HELPS ME NOT EAT UNHEALTHY FOODS AND DD WRAPS.

GEEZ

[Spartan 4]

I don't necessarily disagree with Spartan. I have made a decision to get healthy and that does not include eating fast food. Salads at these places are loaded with hidden calories!

Have I been in a bind and had no other options? Yes. But that is the exception. I don't consciously think "Oh, I am going to go to DD today and get ________". My job has me on the road a lot, almost everyday. But I have not been to McD's, Wendy's, DD....since September. I have been able to find alternatives even in podunk Maine. I'll go into a sandwich shop and order a sandwhich, toss the bread and eat the meat and cheese....or get. 1/4 cup of chicken salad.

I think the point is that for some of us, we can't have the same behaviors we had that led us to be obese in the first place. Many on this board harp about supporting new folks.....and if a newbie reads some of these posts, they may learn how to eat around the band and that it is "okay". Well it may be okay for you, but it isn't for me. I worked too damn hard to get this far (and have a ways to go) to risk my success for some crappy fast food.

As far as foods getting stuck and then avoiding them....I had haddock last night and I felt it. Man was it uncomfortable! I am going to try again to figure out if I ate to fast and didn't chew enough (which I did!!). But the other day, sugar snap peas got caught up!!!

Just my opinion........

Jackie:

I had a comment on something you said, which is what brought me back here to this "interesting" thread.

You said: "I have made a decision to get healthy and that does not include eating fast food. Salads at these places are loaded with hidden calories!"

I agree with that %100. I said that you can find something reasonable to eat wherever you go, BUT I will add that you do have to be careful. As far as the Salads, some of the fast food places dump all sorts of garbage into them, and sometimes put dressing on them before they give it to you. You really have to look carefully at the menu and see just what is put into the salads before you eat them. They like to make it seem like it is the "healthy choice", when in fact, it is anything but.

a very good point!

S.

[juliecook 0]

This posting is kinda confusing since they changed it..