I hear the drums of war beating!!!!!!!!!

[loserbob 11]

I do believe we can have peace again for our country, I cannot speak for every country and I know that some folks just gotta go on killing and mistreating thier own countrymen and women. We sure cannot go and start a war for everybody who is mistreated, Israel is in a hot spot and I know we owe them some support but not when they are unwilling to compromise when it is called for! If we were to go and bomb Iran and Korea when they got out of line, and we are still in japan, germany, eastern europe probably korea, saudi arabia , iraq, afganistan and how ever many other places we have troups and military presence. MY GOD does that not seem a bit like crazy wasteful and the way to eventually destroy our country for the cost and everything this brings? that is the way the Romans bit the dust constant wanting more and being the military power of the world for awhile then gone. I do think we have the right to defend ourselves and our allies IF they are not completely in the wrong and just using us to be bullies themselves. beat those drums for war but I:wink: don't think it will get us what we want in the long run,and our kids will still be fighting for a cause that cannot be identified.

I know this is an older story but Im just reading over it again because this site (LBT) has become so repetetive and boring.

The economic failure wasnt caused by our military being stationed in Germany, Korea or Japan. Iraq, Afghanistan yah, part of the problem. But mostly by corporate greed!

[tmx000 0]

I do believe we can have peace again for our country, I cannot speak for every country and I know that some folks just gotta go on killing and mistreating thier own countrymen and women. We sure cannot go and start a war for everybody who is mistreated, Israel is in a hot spot and I know we owe them some support but not when they are unwilling to compromise when it is called for! If we were to go and bomb Iran and Korea when they got out of line, and we are still in japan, germany, eastern europe probably korea, saudi arabia , iraq, afganistan and how ever many other places we have troups and military presence. MY GOD does that not seem a bit like crazy wasteful and the way to eventually destroy our country for the cost and everything this brings? that is the way the Romans bit the dust constant wanting more and being the military power of the world for awhile then gone. I do think we have the right to defend ourselves and our allies IF they are not completely in the wrong and just using us to be bullies themselves. beat those drums for war but I:wink: don't think it will get us what we want in the long run,and our kids will still be fighting for a cause that cannot be identified.

Sagreenia,

You need to read about the history of the Country of Isreal and how it was created and why, they have "compromised" from the beginning. Their situation is the same as if your neighbor came over and started beating your children until you gave them some of your lawn, and then when you did they wanted more, and when you didn't give it to them the stood in the part of the lawn you did give them and threw rocks threw your windows every night. It isnt just "mistreatment" it is soo much more. I predict that war is inevitable for Isreal, the only question is, will we stand with our ally when her ememies are bent on "wiping her off the face of the Earth", or will we stand to the side and watch.

[loserbob 11]

The incident with the Koreas this morning might move the timeline up for Israel to do something about Iran. Think about it, you have a poor, very impoverished country in N. Korea who is doing whatever it pleases(killing 40 plus SK military men in March and now the incident this morning)because they have nuclear weapons. Its been proven that NK has sold nuc and missile tech to Iran and I believe Libya and whoever else! What will a fairly rich country like Iran do, theyll hold the world hostage and eventually both Iran and NK will have the missile tech to reach our shores. This missile shield bs is giving me the impression that Obama is content with containment, I hope Im wrong. My only hope is that Israel will not allow Iran to get the bomb!

[Birinak 19]

You say people all over the world want what we want, I believe that for the most part but tell me why there has never been peace in the middle east? These people have tribe mentalities. They live in the stone age, Im not being funny here.

As one of "those people," I'd like to thank you for your very profound musings about an entire ethnicity. I'd say more, but I'm afraid my pesky "tribe mentality" tends to limit my capacity for communicating with civilized people, such as yourself.

[Birinak 19]

I have to agree with Bob and Btrieger....

Does the quote "Nuke em' till they glow" bring back fond memories???? I still say it's true. Should have done it then, and should do it now. Period!

Nuke my family until they glow? Those kinds of sentiments really warm my heart! You're so very sanguine at the prospect of murdering 80 million women, men, and children. Afterall, if these people didn't want to be annihilated, they should've chosen some place else to be born!

[ariscus99 1]

As one of "those people," I'd like to thank you for your very profound musings about an entire ethnicity. I'd say more, but I'm afraid my pesky "tribe mentality" tends to limit my capacity for communicating with civilized people, such as yourself.

Unfortunately North Africa and the Middle East have done little in modern history to make people think differently than what LB has said. While I certainly believe there are many more good then bad people, and smart more than dumb in the area. However, as with other area's of the world, the smart common sense people all are more often than not the one's who are quiet and go about their lives with stirring the pot, leading many to believe the fringe loons are the majority.

[loserbob 11]

Nuke my family until they glow? Those kinds of sentiments really warm my heart! You're so very sanguine at the prospect of murdering 80 million women, men, and children. Afterall, if these people didn't want to be annihilated, they should've chosen some place else to be born!

80 mill, I thought there were 1.5 bill muslims in the world. Just kidding. I dont feel this way about all mulims, just radicals which I understand is a very very small percentage. You'll see through my posts that when I say these things Its usually around the time of some event like the mosque in NYC, which Im not totally against now, but anyway when I post things(ignorance)like this its during an emotional state of mind, after I take time to think, the issues arent as serious as Beck and Limbaugh (through their hate mongering) make them out to be.

As far as the "Nuke my family", I dont believe they should ever be used on anybody. The problem is, we, meaning the rest of the world,(muslim countries excluded) only hear of the bad things that happen. Like Iraq, all we heard about was all the dead, injured soldiers for the first few years, we never heard about the schools being built, women attending schools, etc. Its what sales!

Im in full support of whats happening in that part of the world(opposition). This actually changed my mind about Muslims. I believe most do want what we want, meaning peace and opportunity.

Are you saying Im wrong about tribe mentality? I dont believe so, right now(Libya for instance), we'll help them get rid of Gaddafhi, everything will seem ok, then each "tribe" will want control, then starts a real civil war. Example Iraq! There will never be peace in the middle east, unfortunately!

Tell me, whats the only country to prosper over there? Israel, Muslims have all the same resources(more in most cases with oil money) as Israel, what have muslims done for mankind? No industry at all. I forgot Abu Dhabi , more wesernized, prospering!

You can tell me Im wrong about what I say and Ill admit Im ignorant on alot of issues but your sitting safely here in America typing on this site without any worries.(thank a U.S. soldier for that freedom by the way) You cant tell me stoning a woman to death, lashing a 14 year old girl to death (you know one of the "children" I want to glow) because she gets raped by a married man while just trying to walk to the bathroom is civilized! (I forgot the middle of that story, the wife of the rapist heard the girl crying and dragged her into the house, what do you think she did, A-helped the girl by getting her medical help or B-beat the shit out of her for getting raped, if you chose A, the answer most civilized societies would do, your wrong, the wife trampled and kicked the girl unconscious! Cutting off a womans sex organs so she cant feel pleasure for fear of participating in infidelity, thats civilized, actually that goes way beyond tribe mentality!!! I was going to add, call the police and get medical attention but the authorities where alerted, they sentenced the 14 year old girl to 75 lashes in front of the people of the town, I mean villagem, meanwhile all the parents could do was watch their 14 year old child be whipped like an animal until she passed out, only to die a week later from complications!!! THATS REAL CIVILIZED!!! Did I say something about the stoneage?

Now with all that, tell me a nice comforting story about a muslim.

[loserbob 11]

As one of "those people," I'd like to thank you for your very profound musings about an entire ethnicity. I'd say more, but I'm afraid my pesky "tribe mentality" tends to limit my capacity for communicating with civilized people, such as yourself.

Never mind your pesky tribe mentality your in America now, say whats on your mind, your safe now. We have freedom of speech here.

[Birinak 19]

Never mind your pesky tribe mentality your in America now, say whats on your mind, your safe now. We have freedom of speech here.

You started your response in your first post [to me] as if you wanted a civil, rational discussion. However, it seems that the more you write, the more presumptuous and insulting you want to appear.

[loserbob 11]

You started your response in your first post [to me] as if you wanted a civil, rational discussion. However, it seems that the more you write, the more presumptuous and insulting you want to appear.

Answer my last question, I assure you your safe here.

Im not trying to converse, I made a few valid points and you I would assume are republican because you dodged the questions which is typical of reps. Dont be defensive just answer.

How is my telling what I hear irrational, Actually, not once did I hear you defend the victims, in case your using your tribal thoughts the victim is the 14 year old girl, at least in America and most other "civilized" countries she would be.

Thats part of the problem, so called "moderates" defend the actions of these brutal regimes. Speak out and be heard, thats what will change things in the world. The so called few radicals have no problems being heard!

I know you think Im some ignorant (insert word of choice) but Im telling you as an American why I think the way I do, Its not my job to understand how you feel if you dont dispute my claims, if you feel like your being attacked you need to explain your perception of the truth because many, majority feel like I do. You can tell me about Abu Graib in Iraq or the recent prosecution of a U.S. soldier killing innocent civilians, I wont be offended or hurt because what happened was wrong and I could care less about what happens to the people involved in these crimes.(not the innocent people)

Id love to wake up in the morning and not have to feel any sort of dislike toward anybody but all you see are muslims burning American flags screaming "death to America" meanwhile accepting billions of dollars from us. Libyans hated us now we're their best friends because we're once again helping save their lives!

Im curious, what country are you from? My guess is Iran

[loserbob 11]

I forgot, I always let my 6-7 year old boys walk around town with kalishnekov rifles and hand grenades! That could only happen in a civilized society!

[Birinak 19]

80 mill, I thought there were 1.5 bill muslims in the world. Just kidding. I dont feel this way about all mulims, just radicals which I understand is a very very small percentage. You'll see through my posts that when I say these things Its usually around the time of some event like the mosque in NYC, which Im not totally against now, but anyway when I post things(ignorance)like this its during an emotional state of mind, after I take time to think, the issues arent as serious as Beck and Limbaugh (through their hate mongering) make them out to be.

As far as the "Nuke my family", I dont believe they should ever be used on anybody. The problem is, we, meaning the rest of the world,(muslim countries excluded) only hear of the bad things that happen. Like Iraq, all we heard about was all the dead, injured soldiers for the first few years, we never heard about the schools being built, women attending schools, etc. Its what sales!

Im in full support of whats happening in that part of the world(opposition). This actually changed my mind about Muslims. I believe most do want what we want, meaning peace and opportunity.

Are you saying Im wrong about tribe mentality? I dont believe so, right now(Libya for instance), we'll help them get rid of Gaddafhi, everything will seem ok, then each "tribe" will want control, then starts a real civil war. Example Iraq! There will never be peace in the middle east, unfortunately!

Tell me, whats the only country to prosper over there? Israel, Muslims have all the same resources(more in most cases with oil money) as Israel, what have muslims done for mankind? No industry at all. I forgot Abu Dhabi , more wesernized, prospering!

You can tell me Im wrong about what I say and Ill admit Im ignorant on alot of issues but your sitting safely here in America typing on this site without any worries.(thank a U.S. soldier for that freedom by the way) You cant tell me stoning a woman to death, lashing a 14 year old girl to death (you know one of the "children" I want to glow) because she gets raped by a married man while just trying to walk to the bathroom is civilized! (I forgot the middle of that story, the wife of the rapist heard the girl crying and dragged her into the house, what do you think she did, A-helped the girl by getting her medical help or B-beat the shit out of her for getting raped, if you chose A, the answer most civilized societies would do, your wrong, the wife trampled and kicked the girl unconscious! Cutting off a womans sex organs so she cant feel pleasure for fear of participating in infidelity, thats civilized, actually that goes way beyond tribe mentality!!! I was going to add, call the police and get medical attention but the authorities where alerted, they sentenced the 14 year old girl to 75 lashes in front of the people of the town, I mean villagem, meanwhile all the parents could do was watch their 14 year old child be whipped like an animal until she passed out, only to die a week later from complications!!! THATS REAL CIVILIZED!!! Did I say something about the stoneage?

Now with all that, tell me a nice comforting story about a muslim.

When I read these "off-topic" posts, on either side of the issues, I constantly see people getting ridiculously carried away with their rant without stopping to think rationally about what they want to say. Now, for all that you've said, I don't think that you're a bad guy (obviously, I don't know you, but I'm judging from the earnestness of your posts). You just need to stop getting worked up, take a pause, and continue your argument on the basis of logic and not emotion.

Some of these posts are just silly, whereas others (i.e. Murpel's fondness for nuclear holocaust) are thoroughly disgusting. I don't speak about countries of which I know little about. I don't make generalizations about entire populations, especially amazingly insulting generalizations when one of "those people" may end up reading them. I have never referred to Americans as "those people" and I wouldn't think of ranting on and on to an American about the crimes of other Americans, as if every American has to answer for them. "Shooting abortion doctors! Marrying 12 year olds in Utah! Arming vicious Latin American paramilitaries! ...Yeah, Americans, THAT'S REAL CIVILIZED!"

You must know how very patronizing you are being by telling me that I am safe in America to speak (and that I should "thank U.S. soldiers" for that). First, along with the various other assumptions you've made, I'm not American. I'm Canadian. And I don't need your permission or encouragement to speak my mind freely. If I haven't responded in full until now (when, really, we just started talking last night), it's because I haven't had the time. I am not a Republican (again, I'm not even American) and I am not dodging any of your all-over-the-place "valid points."

In your next post, you continue to refer to my tribal thinking and you seem to think that I view 14-year olds differently than the typical American. As I said, this is presumptuous and insulting. All that you know about me so far is that I'm a Middle-Easterner and that I object to the generalizations you made about Middle-Easterners. From these facts about me, look how many prejudiced assumptions you've made about me and my opinions. You know very little about me, and yet you write as if you knew my thoughts on the injustices that you mentioned or as if you thought I was in need of a lecture on just how horrible the crimes of other Middle-Easterners are. I already know, better than many of you, the atrocious social and legal violations of human rights in the Middle-East. I had a long debate on Facebook recently against a Canadian Jewish friend of mine who thought that I was being racist against my own kind when I criticized Islamic countries and praised Western values.

I am an Iranian-Canadian woman and my family comes from a Muslim background. I am now an atheist, as is much of my family. Those Muslim members of my family are still firmly secular. Many Iranians (the people Murpel thinks should be nuked until they glow) are secular. Few non-Iranians know that very few Iranian women wore the head-scarf before the Islamic revolution. They did so after because they were forced. This is why you rarely see Iranians wearing the head-scarf outside of Iran. When my mother was a student in Iran, it was seen as backward and overly religious to cover your hair. Many women wore mini-skirts in Iran before 1979 (my grandmother made a mini-skirt for my mother on her birthday once and this was considered quite normal). You can see videos of the pre-1979 days on youtube (here's a

. It's overly nationalistic, but it shows Iran before the revolution and women today). If anyone was paying attention to the protests in Iran in 2009, you would see that, unlike some other Middle-Eastern countries now, at least half of the protesters were young women, many of them wearing thin veils (in defiance of the authorities and at risk of punishment). Many protesters were shouting "Marg bar Joumhouri-e Islami" or "Marg bar dictator" (which means "death to the Islamic Republic" and "death to the dictator [religious leader].)" Further, about 60 percent of university students in Iran are women.

People have such simplistic views of the Middle-East. These views lead to a de-humanization of Middle-Easterners to the point that simpletons such as Murpel joyfully speak of murdering millions of people for the crime of being born within the wrong set of borders. Even if you understood Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia (those countries being just about the worst of the worst), you couldn't make generalizations about people from countries such as Iran. The Iranian government is despicable, and there are factions in Iran that are responsible for maintaining the government's existence by force, but you and others frequently conflate these factions with the rest of the population. And then, you were speaking about Iran, and you suddenly start lecturing me about Iraq and that case about the 14 year old Bangladeshi girl.

You didn't hear me defend the victims? That's because that was unrelated to what I was talking about in my first post. It was you who suddenly brought it up when I objected to you speaking of an entire country or region in that way, and saying that "those people have tribe mentalities." As I mentioned, I had a very heated (essay-length) debate with a friend on Facebook, where all I did was defend Islam's victims and criticize the political correctness of Westerners and the justifications of "moderates." You wouldn't know that because you don't know me. But that's precisely why you should avoid making wild assumptions about people you don't know on the basis of their ethnicity.

Anyway, your post was really all over the place, which makes it difficult to respond to all the points you made or to do so briefly. If you ask me a few specific and non-rhetorical questions, I will answer them.

[Birinak 19]

Unfortunately North Africa and the Middle East have done little in modern history to make people think differently than what LB has said. While I certainly believe there are many more good then bad people, and smart more than dumb in the area. However, as with other area's of the world, the smart common sense people all are more often than not the one's who are quiet and go about their lives with stirring the pot, leading many to believe the fringe loons are the majority.

The problem is that the people commenting here about Iran or other countries know little about the Middle-East. It's silly to say, "well, what do you expect us to think about you guys?" if people haven't bothered to read about the countries they are ranting about.

Millions of Iranians have been "stirring the pot" for over three decades since the Islamic government took over. My father was tortured as a political prisoner for two years. He was later banned from university, even though he had the highest entrance exam score in the country. He escaped execution because of some ties his family had with an official. My mother fought with the Marxist guerilla fighters against the government. Years later, when she was pregnant with me, she managed to escape Iran on false documents. When she was crossing the border into Turkey, she turned around and gave the equivalent of the middle-finger to the Iranian border guards. She was almost killed for that act. My uncle, as a teenager, protested for women's rights in Iran. For his troubles, he was blind-folded, lined up with his fellow students, and executed by a firing squad. My grandfather had to watch while a couple of "Revolutionary Guards" pissed on his son's fresh unmarked grave. He had to beg them to hand over the bag of my uncle's bloody clothes, so that he could take it back home to my grandmother. Other members of my family, because of my uncle's "crime," were fired from their jobs and blacklisted from working.

What do you guys know about Middle-Easterners "stirring the pot" and the consequences they face for doing so?

Ironically, a poster on here spoke casually about how fond she would be of nuking Iranians until they glowed. Not one single person "stirred the pot" and commented that what she said was despicable, vicious, and not worthy of a citizen of civilized country. Perhaps posters here are afraid that the secret police will abduct them in the middle of the night if they did. Oh, hold on... America has freedom of speech, and you don't have to worry about what will happen to you and your family if you stir the pot.

Still, I don't believe, just because the "smart, good" Americans haven't spoken out against the fringe loons, that the fringe loons are in the majority in America.

[ariscus99 1]

The problem is that the people commenting here about Iran or other countries know little about the Middle-East. It's silly to say, "well, what do you expect us to think about you guys?" if people haven't bothered to read about the countries they are ranting about.

Millions of Iranians have been "stirring the pot" for over three decades since the Islamic government took over. My father was tortured as a political prisoner for two years. He was later banned from university, even though he had the highest entrance exam score in the country. He escaped execution because of some ties his family had with an official. My mother fought with the Marxist guerilla fighters against the government. Years later, when she was pregnant with me, she managed to escape Iran on false documents. When she was crossing the border into Turkey, she turned around and gave the equivalent of the middle-finger to the Iranian border guards. She was almost killed for that act. My uncle, as a teenager, protested for women's rights in Iran. For his troubles, he was blind-folded, lined up with his fellow students, and executed by a firing squad. My grandfather had to watch while a couple of "Revolutionary Guards" pissed on his son's fresh unmarked grave. He had to beg them to hand over the bag of my uncle's bloody clothes, so that he could take it back home to my grandmother. Other members of my family, because of my uncle's "crime," were fired from their jobs and blacklisted from working.

What do you guys know about Middle-Easterners "stirring the pot" and the consequences they face for doing so?

Ironically, a poster on here spoke casually about how fond she would be of nuking Iranians until they glowed. Not one single person "stirred the pot" and commented that what she said was despicable, vicious, and not worthy of a citizen of civilized country. Perhaps posters here are afraid that the secret police will abduct them in the middle of the night if they did. Oh, hold on... America has freedom of speech, and you don't have to worry about what will happen to you and your family if you stir the pot.

Still, I don't believe, just because the "smart, good" Americans haven't spoken out against the fringe loons, that the fringe loons are in the majority in America.

Your asking people to do due diligence, which you wont get from most people here, or anywhere else. Assumptions always have and always will, be made about people based on what is seen. And again, I stand by what I said, what we see(mostly because of the media bias), is the violence and radicalism of the middle east and north Africa.

Many(not all!) of the people of those regions are uneducated, and quite literally don't know what is best for them(not that we do either), they cheer and praise each new dictator thinking it will be different and better this time, and it never is. America is responsible for much of what happens, as we help put many of these people in power, ignorantly thinking the same as the natives, that it will be different, but it never is. Look at the history of those helped into power by the US and what has happened with them; Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussien, etc. etc. And Libya is no different right now, we're helping the rebels(Muslim brotherhood, the most extreme of the muslims) push out a known dictator, Qaddaffi, but who will replace him? Another crazy Islamic extremist? Probably, and he will more than likely turn on us once things improve, as history has proven time and again.

However to say that people don't do the same with America is equally ignorant, you may not, but a vast majority does.

I don't know what anybody said about nuking the middle east, but I wouldn't have said it, and I would have had I seen it, said something against it. I am however not against the idea of the taking some of what we've protected. Much the was Donald Trump has said he would like to do. Spoils of war. We have invested billions, if not trillions into many nations in the middle east and receive nothing in return for our money and the lives of men and women. I would advocate for taking the sum of the what we've invested in them in oil back to us. It's like we're paying twice for much of this, because if it weren't for us, and the money we've invested, they wouldn't be able to sell the oil they do, back to us. It's all very silly IMO.

The stories of your family are of course both sad and yet inspirational, however, very unknown to much of the world, which unfortunately diminishes them to many.

[loserbob 11]

The problem is that the people commenting here about Iran or other countries know little about the Middle-East. It's silly to say, "well, what do you expect us to think about you guys?" if people haven't bothered to read about the countries they are ranting about.

Millions of Iranians have been "stirring the pot" for over three decades since the Islamic government took over. My father was tortured as a political prisoner for two years. He was later banned from university, even though he had the highest entrance exam score in the country. He escaped execution because of some ties his family had with an official. My mother fought with the Marxist guerilla fighters against the government. Years later, when she was pregnant with me, she managed to escape Iran on false documents. When she was crossing the border into Turkey, she turned around and gave the equivalent of the middle-finger to the Iranian border guards. She was almost killed for that act. My uncle, as a teenager, protested for women's rights in Iran. For his troubles, he was blind-folded, lined up with his fellow students, and executed by a firing squad. My grandfather had to watch while a couple of "Revolutionary Guards" pissed on his son's fresh unmarked grave. He had to beg them to hand over the bag of my uncle's bloody clothes, so that he could take it back home to my grandmother. Other members of my family, because of my uncle's "crime," were fired from their jobs and blacklisted from working.

What do you guys know about Middle-Easterners "stirring the pot" and the consequences they face for doing so?

Ironically, a poster on here spoke casually about how fond she would be of nuking Iranians until they glowed. Not one single person "stirred the pot" and commented that what she said was despicable, vicious, and not worthy of a citizen of civilized country. Perhaps posters here are afraid that the secret police will abduct them in the middle of the night if they did. Oh, hold on... America has freedom of speech, and you don't have to worry about what will happen to you and your family if you stir the pot.

Still, I don't believe, just because the "smart, good" Americans haven't spoken out against the fringe loons, that the fringe loons are in the majority in America.

Let me correct myself, your sitting safely in Canada because of America!

Now, about Murpel, I was reading her post and when I said the bulls$%t about the storm I wasnt agreeing with her about nuking anybody, I was referring to not letting Iran develop nukes.

I have a vision of Murpel(WARNING, Im about to offend someone else here!) and her surroundings, lets just say it involves mountains, guns and deerheads, wild bore heads, and lots and lots of stuffed animals hanging on her walls(I dont mean Teddy Bears)!