How do you feel about a mosque at "Ground Zero"?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

KABUL—The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan said the planned burning of Qurans on Sept. 11 by a Florida church could put the lives of American troops in danger and damage the war effort.

Gen. David Petraeus said the Taliban would exploit the demonstration for propaganda purposes, drumming up anger toward the U.S. and making it harder for allied troops to carry out their mission of protecting Afghan civilians.

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen. Petraeus said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems. Not just here, but everywhere in the world we are engaged with the Islamic community."

Is this who we have become as a nation? To burn the books of those whose religion we disagree with? Remember who else burned books? Hitler.

And to endanger our troops, too. It just shows the mob mentality that has developed with this mosque issue.

[BJean 16]

Oh yes, it's who we are as a nation. But it isn't who we've become. It's who we've been for a long, long time.

This is not the first time a church has been burned or some Americans have staged a book burning. We are a very inward-thinking, selfish bunch of people. We are guided by religious zealots in many cases, from the pulpits of churches run by preachers (and priests) who stand to gain from their prosletyzing, political rants.

And that's precisely why I thought (when I didn't understand the bigger picture) that the idea of a mosque at ground zero was a bad idea. I knew Americans would rebel and do some crazy stuff.

As for how it affects the war in Afghanistan, I have to tell you, I don't see the Afghanistian people building Christian churches or Catholic schools in the center of their towns. Of course there's a chance that I'm just unaware of them, but you sure don't hear about them if there are those kinds of places of Christian worship there. Is there a percentage of Christians who make up the population of Afghanistan, like there is a percentage of Muslims who make up the population of the U.S.?

One of the big fallacies of American culture is that we are better people than those from most other places on earth. We may have developed a better way of life, but we aren't better people, and more charitable and honest than the people in other countries. We're all just people. There are good Americans and there are good Muslims. There are bad Americans and there are bad Muslims. They have home-grown terrorists, we have home-grown terrorists.

We don't need to think of ourselves as better because we've developed a democratic republic in which to live. We just live differently than others. More tolerant? Some of us are more tolerant, some of us are not.

What we need is leadership. We need not just an honest, compassionate and intelligent president but we need honest, compassionate and intelligent congress people, governors, judges and even local politicians. And it starts with us. We have the power if we use it properly and we have just been too busy and too easily influenced to do a good job of it.

Cleo's is one person who takes her job of voting seriously. She has become knowledgeable and aware and doesn't get sucked in by the rhetoric. If we all took our job of voter seriously, we could really make a difference.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The Taliban take-over of the country has imposed the strictest interpretation of Islam in the world today. The results have been devastating for the economy and for the lot of women in society. All Afghans must comply with the strict codes imposed on dress, beards, education and observance of shari'a law. What little religious freedom existed has been terminated.

ReligionsPopulation

%AdherentsAnn.Gr

.Muslim97.8922,241,015+

2.9Parsee1.50340,806+

2.9Hindu0.3579,521+

0.2Traditional ethnic0.1022,720+

2.9Baha'i0.1022,720n.a.

Christian0.023,000n.a.

Sikh0.024,544+2.9

non-Religious0.012,272+2.9

Non-Muslim figures may be now much lower than these stated. No Christian churches are permitted. The number of Afghan Christians is estimated to be 1,000 to 3,000. Some Christian expatriate workers have been permitted to serve in relief and social uplift programmes.

This is all I could find. No, the Taliban doesn't allow christian churches. Are we better than the Taliban when we don't allow mosques? It's not just the one near ground zero - all over the country they are being vandalized, burned or their religious books burned.

We are either a nation that is better than our enemies or we are a country that is the same as our enemies.

[BJean 16]

And I say we THINK we are better. But after watching President Bush's bombing of Bahgdad, that fateful night, I became convinced that we are no better than they are.

As for the anger and animosity displayed by Americans when they burn mosques or the Koran, who can really blame them? We have had a government, especially under George W. Bush that used terror threats and the fear mongering over airport travel and the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and Water boarding and the rest and we are mad as hell and scared even worse.

If everything were put into perspective and we had gone after the terrorists and had shut down bin Laden instead of letting him slip through our hands, things might all be different for America right now.

We're in a war. We've been at war for years with no real end in sight in Afghanistan and there are several more spots around the world that could potentially be places for us to drop our bombs. War changes people. We view other countries differently and we think of ourselves (at Bush's insistence) as aggressors. And being aggressive and war mongering is perfectly fine with some Americans. So how does that make us any better than other countries who breed terrorism and work at manufacturing nuclear bombs?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

FYI:

Imam says NY mosque will have prayer spaces for other religions

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS • September 7, 2010

NEW YORK - The imam behind plans for an Islamic community center near ground zero writes in a newspaper editorial that the facility will include "separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths."

[ariscus99 1]

FYI:

Imam says NY mosque will have prayer spaces for other religions

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS • September 7, 2010

NEW YORK - The imam behind plans for an Islamic community center near ground zero writes in a newspaper editorial that the facility will include "separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths."

They can put whatever they want in the thing, it wont matter, people don't like it, it doesn't sit well with millions and millions of American's. If they want to show what a tolerant religion islam is they would build somewhere else. There are hundreds of things that can be put in that building other then another mosque. It's a slap in the face to many people, and it's what the muslim people are doing worldwide. Some people like cm don't see it that way, but many more do. I know you want to make it all about fox news and whatever other BS your spewing, to many many American's they could care less what any news organization has to say because it's something they live with everyday, they do not want this hear. Many NY'ers are still suffering from PTSD from 9/11, and seeing something like this will do nothing but hinder them. I know that it is not sitting directly at ground zero, but it's close enough to make millions feel uncomfortable. Why have we become a nation that sees something like this where millions and millions of people are uncomfortable but still push on for the benefit of only a small few? Especially when the benefit can be gained in the exact same way by moving this thing a couple miles or even a few more blocks. Where is their tolerance? Why should only the majority be tolerant?

The city that I'm a firefighter in has a sister city in Holland, that we do a firefighter exchange with several times a year, last shift and threw the 9/11 weekend we have 5 Dutch firemen working with us, while talking to one of them who was riding out at my station we got on the subject of the ground zero mosque as 9/11 is fast approaching and it's a probably quite a bit bigger of a deal to us as firefighters than it is to many others, and he couldn't understand why we would let them build the mosque there. I explained that it's not a matter of letting, because they are doing nothing illegal and the last thing most of us want is government interference in a private matter, it took him a minute to wrap his mind around that, but once he did he started talking about the muslim take over of of Holland and much of Europe and how the Dutch are just about sick of it, and while they also practice freedom of religion there is quite a movement stirring in Holland to stop allowing the building of any more mosque's. It was quite interesting to get the input of someone not from this country and who is dealing with muslims on a grander scale then we have to, with a government that is even a bigger push over then ours.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Actually, the tide is turning. While the majority of people polled still oppose it, fewer do and more support it. I think people are seeing that this is being made into a more important issue than it is and it is fueling hatred like the guy who was going to burn the Quran.

Our government has no power to stop this mosque from being built so your statement that our government is a pushover in this matter is inaccurate. They also have no power to stop that guy from burning the Quran if he isn't breaking any local zoning laws, fire laws, etc.. in doing so.

And if the Muslims are buying land in Holland then someone is selling it to them. It's all about money. If those who own the land don't want mosques being built then don't sell them the land. But money talks and bulls**t walks.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[ariscus99 1]

Actually, the tide is turning. While the majority of people polled still oppose it, fewer do and more support it. I think people are seeing that this is being made into a more important issue than it is and it is fueling hatred like the guy who was going to burn the Quoran.

Our government has no power to stop this mosque from being built so your statement that our government is a pushover in this matter is inaccurate. They also have no power to stop that guy from burning the Quoran if he isn't breaking any local zoning laws, fire laws, etc.. in doing so.

And if the Muslims are buying land in Holland then someone is selling it to them. It's all about money. If those who own the land don't want mosques being built then don't sell them the land. But money talks and bulls**t walks.

I very clearly stated numerous times that the government has no business deciding this, what I meant was that our pathetic government is pushover in general, we have a president going around apologizing for no reason at all like the world is a damn high school popularity contest that he has to win. We have some of the most inept people in history at the helm in this country on both sides of the aisle and it makes me sick to stomach all the time to think about. And yes obviously someone is selling the land to the muslims in Holland, but that doesn't mean that the majority of the Dutch people agree with or are happy with it. The muslims are taking over all over Europe not just Holland, I've vacationed there a few times and disheartening to see area's that were so rich with Judeo-Christian history at one time being completely taken over by the muslims and these people act as tho the law does not apply to them. It's sad. And it'll be happening here soon enough.

[ariscus99 1]

And if the Muslims are buying land in Holland then someone is selling it to them. It's all about money. If those who own the land don't want mosques being built then don't sell them the land. But money talks and bulls**t walks.

It seems unless your muslim and trying to prove a point. Trump offered 25% more then they paid for the building and they said no.

Donald Trump is stepping into the fray over the proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero. The business magnate and television personality sent a letter to one of the financial backers of the project proposing to buy the building where Park51 would be located.

Trump offered 25 percent more than what the building was bought for. In the letter he makes the offer because it will end a "very serious, inflammatory and highly divisive situation."

The letter was sent to Hisham Elzanaty, who told the Associated Press that he provided most of the money to purchase the property on Park Place. The Egyptian-born businessman, who lives in Long Island, says he would sell it if the price was right.

Trump included one condition to his offer: as part of the deal, the backers of the Islamic cultural center would have to promise that if any new mosque is constructed, it would have to be at least five blocks farther away from the World Trade Center site.

WNYC reached Elzanaty this afternoon and he says he doesn't have a comment yet.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I very clearly stated numerous times that the government has no business deciding this, what I meant was that our pathetic government is pushover in general, we have a president going around apologizing for no reason at all

Oh, there are plenty of reasons. They are eight of them - for each year of the bush administration and his arrogant attitude toward the rest of the world, with his pre-emptive attack on a soverign nation resulting in 4400 deaths of american soldiers, costing us nearly a trillion dollars, taking our eyes off the real enemy - bin laden and Afghanistan, plus torture, etc..

If you want to believe that America is always right then you stay in that naive bubble and keep believing that. We certainly stand for democracy and freedom - noble things to be sure, but the foreign policy of the last administation was disastrous to our image world-wide and while there are those who say that doesn't matter -well, it does. We live in a global economy and we are not isolationists (the 2 wars sure prove that).

Edited September 10, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[Cleo's Mom 257]

And yes obviously someone is selling the land to the muslims in Holland, but that doesn't mean that the majority of the Dutch people agree with or are happy with it. The muslims are taking over all over Europe not just Holland, I've vacationed there a few times and disheartening to see area's that were so rich with Judeo-Christian history at one time being completely taken over by the muslims and these people act as tho the law does not apply to them. It's sad. And it'll be happening here soon enough.

So the muslims have money to buy land and they build mosques on that land. Does this mean that those of other religions cannot worship at their religious sites or practice their religions as they wish? If people are concerned with protecting the Judeo-Christian history, then they need to change their laws to protect the buildings that have historical meaning. And what law do the muslims act like it doesn't apply to them?

This whole mosque issue is just a huge red herring by the republicans and tea baggers to divert the voter's attention in this elections season from the fact that they have NOTHING to offer the middle class. They use fear. It has worked for them in the past.

So Trump offers to buy it if they move it at least 5 blocks away. Wow! 3 blocks makes all the difference. How ridiculous all of this is. I am glad I haven't been duped by it.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[Cleo's Mom 257]

President Obama's great answer to a question by a fox news reporter about the mosque at today's press conference:

"I think I've been pretty clear on my position here. And that is, is that this country stands for the proposition that all men and women are created equal, that they have certain inalienable rights; one of those inalienable rights is to practice their religion freely. And what that means is that if you could build a church on a site, you could build a synagogue on a site, if you could build a Hindu temple on a site, then you should be able to build a mosque on the site...

"We are not at war against Islam. We are at war against terrorist organizations that have distorted Islam or falsely used the banner of Islam to engage in their destructive acts. And we've got to be clear about that. We've got to be clear about that because ... if we're going to successfully reduce the terrorist threat, then we need all the allies we can get. The folks who are most interested in a war between the United States or the West and Islam are al Qaeda. That's what they've been banking on.

"And fortunately, the overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world are peace-loving, are interested in the same things that you and I are interested in: how do I make sure I can get a good job, how can I make sure that my kids get a decent education, how can I make sure I'm safe, how can I improve my lot in life. And so they have rejected this violent ideology for the most part, overwhelmingly.

"And so from a national security interest, we want to be clear about who the enemy is here. It's a handful, a tiny minority of people who are engaging in horrific acts and have killed Muslims more than anybody else.

"The other reason it's important for us to remember that is because we've got millions of Muslim-Americans, our fellow citizens, in this country. They're going to school with our kids. They're our neighbors. They're our friends. They're our coworkers. And, you know, when we start acting as if their religion is somehow offensive, what are we saying to them?

"I've got Muslims who are fighting in Afghanistan, in the uniform of the United States armed services. They're out there putting their lives on the line for us, and we've got to make sure that we are crystal clear for our sakes and their sakes: They are Americans. And we honor their service. And part of honoring their service is making sure that they understand that we don't differentiate between 'them' and 'us.' It's just 'us.'"

[BJean 16]

You know one of the key points that the president made was that the "overwhelming majority" of Muslims are peace loving and are interested in the same things that all Americans are interested in. If all of us truly believed that, we wouldn't have any reason to demonstrate or speak against having a mosque built near ground zero.

But Americans are basically ignorant about that. We have 9/11 imprinted on our minds and we have heard how the Koran preaches that Muslims should ultimately rule the world. These are the things about the religion that we are most familiar with.

Most of us don't know any Muslims personally. We have no personal experience that refutes all the hatred we've heard and seen toward Muslims in the press. We're flat out ignorant of the truth about that religion. We haven't studied it in school or even on our own. We're victims of our own ignorance. And that's the primary reason why we feel so threatened by this entire subject.

If we knew that terrorists, like the 9/11 Islamic terrorists, were absolutely NOT representative of the Muslim faith, then we would be able to rationally decide the merits of a mosque near ground zero vs. being intolerant of the plans of those people for that facility.

We speak from ignorance when we shout hate slogans and burn books.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I don't believe for a minute that all this controversy is about the location of the NY mosque. I think it just became a media story when that right wing woman decided to make it one - and the basis is this country's anger toward and hatred of Muslims. She decided to capitalize on it and make it an election year story to further fan the flames of the anger we have seen and give republicans something to yap about since they have zero to offer to help this economy.

If it were just about the location then we wouldn't be seeing the burning of a mosque in Tennessee or vandalism and protests of mosques elsewhere in this country, not to mention the threatened burning of the Quran.

The media picked up on this story and the angry populace now had a new cause to protest. The undocumented workers in Arizona are off the hook for the time being. Who will it be next week?

[DonTony 0]

Id love to know where you reside. Cause it certainly isnt from New York. And you are quite the obessive one about this topic. The media can do what they want about this. If they exploit the story, they are fools. But for you to think you understand our emotions and how personal it is to us, you are an idiot.

One thing I got out of this rant and obsessive posting of yours is that shallow morons can get the Lapband too.