Unfu$%ing believable!!!

[Cleo's Mom 257]

@ Cleo's Mom - Thank you for posting the Washington Post article. It is a well written and we should all take the lessons of peace and tolerance to heart. Cleo is very fortunate to have such an Enlightened mom.

Thank you. :thumbup:

[ariscus99 1]

Here's the "apple" (re: the building where the mosque will be):

The five-story building on Park Place, a few blocks north of Wall Street, was completed between 1857 and 1858 and is an Italian Renaissance-inspired palazzo. It formerly housed a department store, which closed after the building was damaged on Sept. 11. Muslim prayer service is held at the building at least one day a week.

The church is 200 years old, this building is 152, so what's your point?[/OLOR]

[/CLOR]

I did the google search. Couldn't come up with anything but I'm sure you can give us your websites.[/COLO]

[/COLR]

[/COOR]

You can spin anything can't you? The church, has been a church, for 200 years, this mosque has not, the building has nothing to do with it, the building could be 500 years old, it would not matter, the mosque they want is not that old, and was not there before the towers were built, you obviously can't see it, and you would probably argue with me if I said the sky was blue, your stance would probably be that the sky is orange. We all get it. You obviously don't. If you don't see how this is insensitive to millions of people then your just to hard headed and naive and as you've proven time and again there is no getting threw to you.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

You can spin anything can't you? The church, has been a church, for 200 years, this mosque has not, the building has nothing to do with it, the building could be 500 years old, it would not matter, the mosque they want is not that old, and was not there before the towers were built, you obviously can't see it, and you would probably argue with me if I said the sky was blue, your stance would probably be that the sky is orange. We all get it. You obviously don't. If you don't see how this is insensitive to millions of people then your just to hard headed and naive and as you've proven time and again there is no getting threw to you.

You're the one spinning things. The age of the building is irrelevant. As is the age of the church. You said there were no churches near ground zero. Not true. And the proposed mosque is two blocks from ground zero, not right next to it.

I asked this question before but have not received an answer. This is a privately owned building. Do you want government to tell somewhat what they can do with privately owned property that doesn't violate zoning laws?

I really don't care one way or another whether they build or create a mosque there or not. I just find it yet another issue that those on the right can get angry and yell about and try to blame Obama for.

And when posters who argue with me have nothing, they start attacking me personally. As you have.

And P.S. Still waiting for those websites.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[ariscus99 1]

You're the one spinning things. The age of the building is irrelevant. As is the age of the church. You said there were no churches near ground zero. Not true. And the proposed mosque is two blocks from ground zero, not right next to it.

I asked this question before but have not received an answer. This is a privately owned building. Do you want government to tell somewhat what they can do with privately owned property that doesn't violate zoning laws?

I really don't care one way or another whether they build or create a mosque there or not. I just find it yet another issue that those on the right can get angry and yell about and try to blame Obama for.

And when posters who argue with me have nothing, they start attacking me personally. As you have.

And P.S. Still waiting for those websites.

I only attacked your ability to see things outside of your rose colored(uber liberal) glasses. I have said nothing about president bo. I'm not blaming this on him. And you continue to show your ignorance about the "tea party" when you say this bs about "big government" and how all tea partiers want is anarchy and no government whatsoever. So keep posting that, and keep believing it and showing your ignorance. The age of the church is relevant. What I meant and was not clear about, and I apologize for it, is that there are no new churches trying to be built in the same vicinity that this mosque wants to be. Here is one website that talks about it, took about 9 seconds to find, Pajamas Media

[HappyHomeCC 2]

from the Washington Post:

A peace-making mosque is NECESSARY near Ground Zero

Peace does not fall from the sky, or come about by ignoring the need to teach tolerance. Peace is made, and it is made because courageous individuals reach out toward one another and do the difficult work of overcoming hatred and fear. It is for this reason that it is absolutely NECESSARY for a Islamic cultural center and mosque, run by Muslims who are seeking interfaith-understanding and peace, to be built nearly the site of 9/11.

Daisy Khan, executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, one of the organizations driving this mosque project, points out the need for moderate Muslims, such as the people behind this project, to step forward. "People often say, 'Where are the moderate Muslim voices?' A building like this, with this scale, will be an amplifier for that often silent majority...What most people don't know is that the people who are driving this forward are very integrated into the community downtown. We are nothing to be feared."

One of the ways to change the narrative of Muslims as aliens in America, people who should be feared, is to create another narrative by living into a new relationship. This mosque and community center can help do that.

It is also a terrible thing for Muslims to not have their losses on 9/11 acknowledged, and this Islamic site, I believe, should honor those innocent victims of the terror attacks. There were many Muslims killed by the terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center buildings. Muslims like Salman Hamdani, a young New York City police cadet and part-time ambulance driver, who was about to start medical school. He was found under the rubble of the North Tower, his EMT medical bag beside him, apparently killed while trying to help those injured in the attacks. A Muslim waiter at a Tower restaurant, Mohammad Chowdhury, died on 9/11, leaving his pregnant wife to give birth to their child 48 hours after the attacks, making their child the first 9/11 orphan. There were Muslims on the hijacked planes, including a young couple traveling to a friend's wedding. The wife was 7 months pregnant. Family members, however, were barred from taking flights to her memorial service. Her mother said, "I would like everyone to know that she was a Muslim, she is a Muslim and we are victims too, of this tragic incident." It is an awful thing to lose a family member, a child, a beloved friend in such a violent attack. But these Muslim families ended up often being singled out for blame, not for support for their losses. This mosque should honor their loved ones who also died in this senseless, brutal assault and help them find some peace.

There are many reasons why this mosque near Ground Zero is a good idea--it is a way to actually make a change for the better in this country, deal directly with the fear and suspicion directed at Muslims for no reason other than the fact that they are Muslims, and also address as yet often unacknowledged public sorrow for Muslims who lost loved ones on 9/11.

It is, in fact, NECESSARY to act your way into the change you want to see. Peace and tolerance don't just happen. They happen because kindly and brave people like Daisy Khan try to make it happen.

By Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite | July 19, 2010; 5:46 PM ET

Thank you for posting. I believe if I am not wrong there was a mosque on the lower levels of one of the towers... At the same token the Mosque is not being built at ground zero but near it. and yes Muslims are Americans too! Don't judge Islam by a few radicals lest you be judged yourselves. I myself am a Muslim convert, a preachers kid no less, Bible Major in college even. I feel Statements like that do nothing more than cultivate hate and mistrust. Typically people who make derogatory marks concerning Muslims or Islam are uninformed or mislead... Shall we all judge the Catholic Church by the indescrection of some priests... and I could go on and on group by group.

Time to create dialog and foster some compassion and understanding between people and faiths.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I only attacked your ability to see things outside of your rose colored(uber liberal) glasses. I have said nothing about president bo. I'm not blaming this on him. And you continue to show your ignorance about the "tea party" when you say this bs about "big government" and how all tea partiers want is anarchy and no government whatsoever. So keep posting that, and keep believing it and showing your ignorance. The age of the church is relevant. What I meant and was not clear about, and I apologize for it, is that there are no new churches trying to be built in the same vicinity that this mosque wants to be. Here is one website that talks about it, took about 9 seconds to find, Pajamas Media

I'm the least ignorant poster you will find on these threads when it comes to political issues. Therefore, I stand behind everything I have posted about the tea party as correct. They do protest what they call big government, big spending, decry their loss of freedoms, and their hatred for Obama is evident. I didn't say they wanted no government. And you still haven't answered my question about private property and who has the right to dictate how it is used outside of applicable zoning laws.

The original poster blamed this mosque issue on Obama if he "didn't do something about it". That's why I made that comment.

No new churches aren't being built next to ground zero because land is at a premium. But I did notice a Verizon building right next to ground zero. This proposed mosque is already a building, they are just adding to it. And ground zero will be a memorial to those who died and those who tried to help them and symbol of America's strength and fortitude and a resolution that we will not be knocked down. We are stronger than that.

I don't see how some mosque two blocks away will threaten that.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

And you continue to show your ignorance about the "tea party" when you say this bs about "big government" and how all tea partiers want is anarchy and no government

Tea Party Patriots or Neocon Nationalists?

By James Bovard

Many “tea party” activists staunchly oppose big government, except when it is warring, wiretapping, or waterboarding. A movement that started out denouncing government power apparently has no beef with some of the worst abuses of modern times.

Unfortunately, there is scant evidence that most tea partyers have studied the copies of the Constitution they generously hand out to bystanders.

At a Tax Day tea party in Rockville, Md., the speaking venue was draped with a huge banner: “Tired of Big Government?” Members of the “Tyranny Response Team” stood near the front of the rally with their official blue T-shirts. Giant American flags and ones with “Don’t Tread on Me” (with a coiled rattlesnake) were carried around by men with tri-corn hats. Political campaigns busily sold “9/11 Remembrance” bracelets.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Thank you for posting. I believe if I am not wrong there was a mosque on the lower levels of one of the towers... At the same token the Mosque is not being built at ground zero but near it. and yes Muslims are Americans too! Don't judge Islam by a few radicals lest you be judged yourselves. I myself am a Muslim convert, a preachers kid no less, Bible Major in college even. I feel Statements like that do nothing more than cultivate hate and mistrust. Typically people who make derogatory marks concerning Muslims or Islam are uninformed or mislead... Shall we all judge the Catholic Church by the indescrection of some priests... and I could go on and on group by group.

Time to create dialog and foster some compassion and understanding between people and faiths.

Thank you. As I posted elsewhere, should we be offended if catholic churches are near playgrounds, elementary schools, child care centers, etc?...Isn't that insensitive to their victims? Isn't that a slap in the face to those who suffered their sexual abuse?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The tea party's view on the government and property rights - but of course when it comes to muslim mosques, well then it's okay:

Kelo’s fifth anniversary: a triumph of property-rights activism

posted at 12:55 pm on June 23, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

Did the first stirrings of the Tea Party begin five years ago today? On June 23, 2005, the Supreme Court ruled in its Kelo decision that government could seize private property through eminent domain and hand it off to another private entity, putting the private property of all Americans at the mercy of local and state governments. The decision created outrage, and then grassroots activism to protect private property rights in the face of a grasping and avaricious government, arguably setting the stage for the all-out eruption of Tea Party activism a few years later. The Institute for Justice reports on the progress made in the intervening five years:

[HappyHomeCC 2]

Thank you. As I posted elsewhere, should we be offended if catholic churches are near playgrounds, elementary schools, child care centers, etc?...Isn't that insensitive to their victims? Isn't that a slap in the face to those who suffered their sexual abuse?

yes I agree with you.... Great point!

[loserbob 11]

Trinity Church and St. Paul's Chapel are near ground zero. Additionally, the building already exists and is used about once a week by Muslims. The plan is to expand it and make it a mosque and community center.

It is privately owned and if it doesn't violate zoning laws I don't see how the government can dictate how a private owner can use his land. Those on the right are always yapping about big government and losing rights, blah, blah, blah, well if any government agency told a private owner that he couldn't build something that met all zoning requirement you know what would hit the fan.

That being said, there are terrorists among us. We all know that. Remember Jihad Jane, a caucasian woman and Richard Reed and Timonty McVeigh? They don't all look like middle easterners. And those terrorists don't need a mosque to meet. They can meet anywhere.

And what are these websites are you citing that say that terrorists erect buildings at sites they have destroyed? Where has this happened? What buildings have they erected and where?

Cant we all just join hands , sing kumba ya(not sure if its spelled right)and live in a world of peace!

Sorry, you can believe it can happen, the muslims wont let it happen, Ill stand by my "warmongering" ways and in the end we'll see who survives longer!

And the point about Hispanics, dont throw that into the mix, they didnt kill 3000 Americans! Theyre not trying to instill their religious beliefs all over the world like muslims and Patty!

I dont know of any Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Lutheran, Mennonite, Mormon Terrorist groups going around blowing people up, killing innocent people and thats all they've known for thousands of years!

Id love to live in peace but thats not the reality of this world!

Tell me what muslims have done to help human kind, without thne help of "civilized" people.

[loserbob 11]

yes I agree with you.... Great point!

HELL YAH!

If they've cleared the land by their own means and killed people to do it!

[loserbob 11]

If they blow up the Statue Of Liberty, should they be allowed to put a statue of Mohammed in her place?

You never answered my question, you keep throwing bs at me about zoning laws and legal bs, this isnt about legality, its about morality! What would have happened in the 40s if Japs wanted to put monument or place of worship at Pearl Harbor? Yah, your right it wouldnt have happened because we didnt have to worry about being politically correct. We cant call a terrorist a terrorist today because we might offend them and Im sure you believe its ok, I can see you lean far, far left, and even though Im indepentent and usually lean left, this is one area I lean right.

And as far as not wanting to argue with me, I refudiate that decision, you argue with Patty all the time and she doesnt agree with you!

But I dont blame you, I wouldnt argue with me over this point either. It is cut and dry(morally speaking). You call me ignorant, I say Im living in reallity!

And yah, I know 99.999999% of muslims, alright maybe 50% really, are ok, but if more people get pissed at me for it then I hate every muslim(except Dr. Aziz)very informative show.

[loserbob 11]

Why dont you blow up a building in Mecca, Kill thousands of muslims, then see if you can put a church there!

Yah, that would happen. This isnt just about a mosque in New York City, its about blowing up an international symbol of wealth and power, killing thousands of innocent people, then putting a place of worship on or near those grounds just because they can! Because as you say, Cleos Mom, its legally acceptable, the zoning laws allow it! Your far left thoughts at work, taking my rights and giving them to a foreigner!! Im talking about the muslims getting a rise out of this because even though they know morally its wrong they can legally do it because as you've pointed out Cleosmom, the zoning laws allow it and the land is privately owned!

Another bullshit arguement of yours is, we'll learn more about Islam, first of all, yah, second of all, they say we make them feel like outsiders(putting 9-11 aside), why dont they interact with us, do you have any muslims over to your house, do youy meet any for coffee? I dont and I dont know anyone who does. Im not talking about events on tv or at hospitals when theyre operating on you(oh yah, I do like muslim drs). I feel uncomfortable around them because they seem to keep to themselves.

You say you dont want to go back and forth, yes you do, youll respond!

[loserbob 11]

The one thing they all have in common is they're all linked to islamists, Tim Mcveigh supposedly had Iraqi phone numbers in his possesion, its believed he tried out for special forces training after Desert Storm and was disgruntled because he was turned down! Whether its true or not who knows! Tread lightly here because if you say its bs, that means your buddy Bill lied!

I dont know of any American groups who are doing this without any outside influence, Im sure you do and will let me know so:

PASTE HERE!