Do you believe in a god or gods?

[pattygreen 5]

The last three generations of Americans simply have not been told the truth about American history as its Christian heritage has been disparaged.

For example, ask most Americans if the "separation of church and state" is in our Constitution, and they will answer yes. You can scour the Constitution of the United States, and you will NOT find the phrase, "separation of church and state" or anything close to it.

In the Constitution of the Soviet Union, however, the doctrine of the separation of Church and State is found: "In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the State, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens" (Article 124). Article Twelve of the 1918 Soviet Constitution decrees that no church or religious organization "shall enjoy the rights of judicial person." Instruction of children under age 18 in religious matters, whether in public or private, is against the law.

[pattygreen 5]

While many may squabble over who among the founding fathers was a Christian, no knowledgeable historian of early American history can deny the fact that the concept of a Creator God who endowed His creation with "unalienable rights" was an essential underpinning of the American experiment. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them.

[pattygreen 5]

What we need is a Christian nation - compared to the pagan nation we're becoming. By "Christian nation," I don't mean that everyone is forced to be a Christian or forced to go to church or to believe in God. People are free to be Buddhists, atheists, or whatever. The job of government is not to convert or force conversion to any kind of faith. The job of the government is to do for the people what they can't do for themselves. And the job of bringing people to faith belongs to the private citizens, the churches, the synagogues and the religious leaders of our nation. That separation should always be kept. What I mean by a Christian nation is a nation whose laws are self-consciously built on the laws and principles of the Bible.

We have allowed organizations like the ACLU to strip away every vestige of our Christian heritage for long enough. We are tired of them destroying our country by declaring God unconstitutional. Our nation was founded on the principles laid out by the God of the Bible and we're saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Where there is no foundation, there are no laws and what results is anarchy brought forth by moral relativism. Their way has failed. The time has come for us to take back that which once was and let the healing begin.

"Let us look forward to the time when we can take the flag of our country and nail it below the Cross, and there let it wave as it waved in the olden times, and let us gather around it an inscribed for our motto: "Liberty and Union, one and inseparable, now and forever," and exclaim, Christ first, our country next!" -- Andrew Johnson

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The spirit of separation of church and state is clearly contained in the wording of the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." And it is reaffirmed by the Sixth Amendment: "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison spend much of their political lives fighting for the strict separation of church and state, first as Virginia state legislators, later as presidents. And the bedrock principle of separation has been repeatedly affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

It is one of the proud pillars on which this nation was built, and over the two centuries since, it has helped both our country and churches to flourish.

As for our nations laws: I would prefer that they be based on the conscience of our society to be able to discern right from wrong so that "we the people" and not any brand of religion or book will decide our laws and how we govern.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I want our children to get the best science education there is so as to be able to compete in the world economy. Right now we are 21st.

Teaching creationism in which students are told that man is less than 10,000 years old and all the animals were created 5000 years ago, not to mention the Creation Museum where the dinosaurs have saddles, apparently so that Adam and Eve could ride them. This is not the kind of thing that should be taught in schools. This belongs in religious classes. Scientific evidence, of course, refutes these claims about the age of man and animals, so this version of creationism is not just "another theory" it's a lie.

[Llyra 3]

Thank you, Patty. You just proved my point much more thoroughly than I could've done myself: that Christians think they have a historical and moral right to see laws that favor their religion in place.

If we are going to argue historical basis for religion in America, I should point out that the earliest inhabitants of the New World were not Christians, and in fact experienced cultural and physical genocide at the hands of Christians who wished to wipe out the established faiths of these people and set Christianity in their place.

Just for the record, my own faith is much closer to, though not the same as, that of indigenous Americans, but I don't think that gives me the historical and moral right to dictate social morality and legal holidays to anyone else.

"We" don't need a Christian nation. "We" don't need a pagan nation. We need a nation that recognizes, accepts, and respects the rights of people to worship- or not worship- as they see fit. The idea that all these various groups can worship peacefully and safely under the reign of Christianity- well, just take a look at world history in the last 2000 years.

Christians are not God's appointed cops to make sure everyone lives the way Christians think they should live; Christians are simply one more group of the Creator's diverse family of children. Those Christians who insist they know what is best for all Americans are the religious equivalent of a very bossy older sister who thinks no one need have opinions of their own since hers are best for everyone concerned.

I wish you happiness and peace of mind, Patty, especially since you must feel a bit up against the wall here with all the dissent re: your religious viewpoint. But I guess you know that comes with the territory. Have a good weekend.

Oh, PS.

Re: Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them.

When these words were written, they did not legally apply to black people, women, or men without property. Do you really think we should return to the original intent of the document, or is heightened awareness of and compassion for the rights of these groups more to the point in the 21st century?

And PSS. I'm not an atheist, but I do advocate teaching evolution in schools as a scientic fact. There are theories as to why evolution occurs, but that evolution occurs is backed up by evidence in the fossil record, to give the simplest example among many. Creation science is mythology and every culture has its own creation myth. I have no objection to mythology, think it should be taught in school as part of a comprehensive cultural program, but to present it as serious science is ludicrous.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Llyra

[pattygreen 5]

The spirit of separation of church and state is clearly contained in the wording of the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." And it is reaffirmed by the Sixth Amendment: "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison spend much of their political lives fighting for the strict separation of church and state, first as Virginia state legislators, later as presidents. And the bedrock principle of separation has been repeatedly affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

It is one of the proud pillars on which this nation was built, and over the two centuries since, it has helped both our country and churches to flourish.

As for our nations laws: I would prefer that they be based on the conscience of our society to be able to discern right from wrong so that "we the people" and not any brand of religion or book will decide our laws and how we govern.

WE the people get our conscience from God and the bible he wrote for us. That's why WE the people know what is right and what is wrong and therefore attempt to pass laws to uphold morality in this country. Christians ARE our society.

[pattygreen 5]

I want our children to get the best science education there is so as to be able to compete in the world economy. Right now we are 21st.

Teaching creationism in which students are told that man is less than 10,000 years old and all the animals were created 5000 years ago, not to mention the Creation Museum where the dinosaurs have saddles, apparently so that Adam and Eve could ride them. This is not the kind of thing that should be taught in schools. This belongs in religious classes. Scientific evidence, of course, refutes these claims about the age of man and animals, so this version of creationism is not just "another theory" it's a lie.[/QUOTE]

WOW! You said you believed in God. You were the one who was obviously telling a lie. I can recall you telling on these forums that you believed there was a God. If you do, and he did not create us, then who did?

[pattygreen 5]

Thank you, Patty. You just proved my point much more thoroughly than I could've done myself: that Christians think they have a historical and moral right to see laws that favor their religion in place.

When you vote, or take a stand on an issue, you do so according to what you believe is correct and right. So do Christians. So, yes, when I take a stand on an issue, I determine in my heart if it is morally correct or not according to what God tells me is right and wrong, and thus make my conclusion. You do the same thing. Only you use your own inner consciense to make your decisions on issues, and not what God tells you is so.

If we are going to argue historical basis for religion in America, I should point out that the earliest inhabitants of the New World were not Christians, and in fact experienced cultural and physical genocide at the hands of Christians who wished to wipe out the established faiths of these people and set Christianity in their place.

Whether the Indians who dwelt on this land were here first or not is irrelevent. Roaming around on horseback through America did not give them ownership of the land. And, furthermore, if the early Christians who settled here did anything to anyone here that was sinful or wrong, they themselves will have to answer to God for that. Despite what happened or who was here first, this Nation began with a written document, from Christian men who set up a form of government that was and is still the greatest in History.

Just for the record, my own faith is much closer to, though not the same as, that of indigenous Americans, but I don't think that gives me the historical and moral right to dictate social morality and legal holidays to anyone else.

You did not set up or form the government that they did. And that is why you can not dictate anything. Besides, if it were not for God and his grace towards His children, no one would be living here.

"We" don't need a Christian nation. "We" don't need a pagan nation. We need a nation that recognizes, accepts, and respects the rights of people to worship- or not worship- as they see fit.

And Christian's don't want to stand in your way. Worship whomever you please. Go ahead. We respect your right to do just that. What's your arguement here?

The idea that all these various groups can worship peacefully and safely under the reign of Christianity- well, just take a look at world history in the last 2000 years.

They can. Christianity has no rules or laws that hurt anyone. God has not made it difficult for the people to adhere to anything he says. Everything that God has handed us down in his word only benefits the people and keeps them from hurting physically, emotionally, socially, financially or spiritually. Why are unbelievers so afraid to be under their Creators rule? He is like a parent who only works out everything for the good for his children. Every lesson he teaches is for our own good and not to harm us. He loves us.

Christians are not God's appointed cops to make sure everyone lives the way Christians think they should live; Christians are simply one more group of the Creator's diverse family of children. Those Christians who insist they know what is best for all Americans are the religious equivalent of a very bossy older sister who thinks no one need have opinions of their own since hers are best for everyone concerned.

Christians don't want to be your moral cops. They just want to make society to be at its best. And following God's guidebook, they vote accordingly. If they are politicians, they make the laws according to what they feel God deems good. If they are citizens, they vote according to what God deems good. If they are in positions of authority, they try to be fair and jsut according to what God deems fair and just. that's all. Unbelievers vote according to what they themselves deem good. That's their right. Christians have their rights to vote they want to also.

I wish you happiness and peace of mind, Patty, especially since you must feel a bit up against the wall here with all the dissent re: your religious viewpoint. But I guess you know that comes with the territory. Have a good weekend.

I wish you happiness and peace as well.

Oh, PS.

When these words were written, they did not legally apply to black people, women, or men without property. Do you really think we should return to the original intent of the document, or is heightened awareness of and compassion for the rights of these groups more to the point in the 21st century?

The words applied to everyone in the Country.

And PSS. I'm not an atheist, but I do advocate teaching evolution in schools as a scientic fact. There are theories as to why evolution occurs, but that evolution occurs is backed up by evidence in the fossil record, to give the simplest example among many. Creation science is mythology and every culture has its own creation myth. I have no objection to mythology, think it should be taught in school as part of a comprehensive cultural program, but to present it as serious science is ludicrous.

The bible teaches that the wisdom of man is folly in God's eyes. They think they know what is right, but they are foolish. God has the answers for He created the Earth and the Heavens and everything in them, including you.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

God the creator set into motion the conditions here on earth for things to evolve, and they did. Our science can show us how old the earth is, how old man is, how old dinosaurs are, etc.. That is not up for debate. Those are facts. Man is more than 10,000 years old and did not live with dinosaurs yet alone ride them.

The theory of evolution explains how we evolved over the years. This theory is based on scientific discoveries, data and scientific techniques that allow us to piece the puzzle together. It is a theory that is dynamic, not static, and improved upon as we learn more and develop better techniques and make more discoveries that improve upon our previous knowledge.

I will fight tooth and nail to prevent the following lies from being taught in the public schools:

-man lived with dinosaurs

-Noah took dinosaurs on the Ark, but they were babies

-Adam named all the creatures on the earth

-incorrect age of the earth and man

If people want to teach this junk, let them do it in religious classes but it doesn't belong in serious science classes.

[Llyra 3]

When these words were written, they did not legally apply to black people, women, or men without property. Do you really think we should return to the original intent of the document, or is heightened awareness of and compassion for the rights of these groups more to the point in the 21st century?

The words applied to everyone in the Country.

No, Patty, they didn't. People were held in slavery. Wives were essentially the property of their husbands; they didn't even have rights to their own children. People without property were prevented from holding office. These circumstances didn't change with the Declaration of Independence or even with the Constitution. All it takes is a bit of historical research to check this out. Primary sources still exist and are accessible.

And it is relevant that the Christian men men you rever as founders of the country came in and destroyed the native cultures in order to force their religion and form of government on others. Christians have a history of destroying anyone who does not agree with them- and that includes dominant Christian organizations destroying smaller Christian organizations that don't agree with them. The history of the western world is filled with tyranny and massacre based solely on the firm belief that the perpetrators have God firmly on their side and that only they can know what God wants for the world.

Is it any wonder people don't trust Christians to allow non-Christians to live peacefully according to the light God gives to them? Especially when Christians like you are so sure that you are the only people for whom God lights the way. To whit:

God tells me is right and wrong, and thus make my conclusion. You do the same thing. Only you use your own inner consciense to make your decisions on issues, and not what God tells you is so.

Mahatma Gandhi spoke for many people when he said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

[pattygreen 5]

No, Patty, they didn't. People were held in slavery. Wives were essentially the property of their husbands; they didn't even have rights to their own children. People without property were prevented from holding office. These circumstances didn't change with the Declaration of Independence or even with the Constitution. All it takes is a bit of historical research to check this out. Primary sources still exist and are accessible.

Just because some men in those days did not revere others as important or worthy, doesn't mean that the statement "they are endowed by their creator" is wrong and should not be upheld today.

And it is relevant that the Christian men you rever as founders of the country came in and destroyed the native cultures in order to force their religion and form of government on others.

People have overtaken land everywhere on this earth. It's our history. You can't blame "Christians" for this. The blame is on "people". Some who believed in God and some who didn't. Christians are people. ALL "people" do wrong. Thus their imminent need for A Savior, whom our Creator sent for us.

Christians have a history of destroying anyone who does not agree with them- and that includes dominant Christian organizations destroying smaller Christian organizations that don't agree with them. The history of the western world is filled with tyranny and massacre based solely on the firm belief that the perpetrators have God firmly on their side and that only they can know what God wants for the world.

Once again. "People" have a history of destroying anyone who does not agree with them.

Is it any wonder people don't trust Christians to allow non-Christians to live peacefully according to the light God (Jesus IS God) gives to them? Especially when Christians like you are so sure that you are the only people for whom God lights the way. To whit:

I am not the only person whom God has given salvation or whom He has lit the way for. There are many, many others who believe in Jesus as their Savior and are going to Heaven when their life here is over. I didn't make the rule. Jesus is the only way to reach God the Father.

Mahatma Gandhi spoke for many people when he said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

This is sooooo true. Christians are sooo unlike Christ. They are sinners. But thanks be to God, He sent us a Savior who takes our sins away and sets us free from the condemnation of them! Humans can't help doing wrong. They can NOT live one day without sinning. Why do you think God sent us a Savior to take the punishment for our sins for us? Because we need Him. If Jesus didn't die on the cross, there would be no entrance into the Father's presence because He can NOT be in the presence of sin.

[BJean 16]

MEN wrote the Bible and men included all the references to God and scripture on our monuments, anthems, money and buildings. Belief in God and the Bible may have inspired the use of those words, but God did not literally do any of that. To put it all on God as if he demanded it or as if we would somehow be sinners if we didn't do those things, is ludicrous.

As for the ACLU, you've been drinking the kool-aide too long. I know it is very popular to bash the ACLU, but without them you would not enjoy many of the constitutional rights that you have today. There have been many folks who have tried to change the interpretation of the Constitution but the ACLU has defended it to the letter. And you should be proud that there is an organization devoted to it.

As you said, all men are sinners and that includes some who would sell you down the river to further their own personal agenda by taking away your constitutional rights.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Let's not forget that the born again christians even had their own tv show to depict their version of creationism - it was called: Fred Flintstone.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Llyra 3]

People have overtaken land everywhere on this earth. It's our history. You can't blame "Christians" for this. The blame is on "people".

I am talking specifically about America and Americans. Christians came here with an agenda and carried it out via forced conversion and genocide. Wasn't just the Indians who pissed off those who thought God spoke to them: Ann Hutchinson didn't agree with her local socio-political Christian organization and the good churchmen drove her and her children out into the wilderness to die. The Quakers came in for beatings, time in the stock, exile and murder at the hands of the ruling Christian party. There are other examples- shall I go on?

Blaming the ills of the country on "people" rather than on the Christians you claim give Christians the upper hand in governing the country is hypocritical to say the least. Read some history that took place later than 40 CE and learn with what violence and lack of charity the Christians carried their Holy Word to the New World. Have the courage to own it as part of your religious background and don't try to sweep it away by murmuring about forgiveness for sin.

An American Theocracy would be a nightmare. What you are telling me is that people can believe and worship any way they please as long as they submit to the Christian version of government, which includes perks for Christians starting with Christmas holiday and going clear through denying a person's right to marry whomever they chose.

My point is people have good, solid reasons to fear rule by Christians. Wasn't very long ago that the powerful Baptists announced it was a woman's duty to submit unto her husband as he submitted unto God. Do I want these people making this good Christian point of view law? No, I do not, and I'm glad there are enough tolerant and compassionate Christians to vote in favor of rights for minority faiths.