Do you believe in a god or gods?

[pattygreen 5]

btrieger's original post:

Thank goodness no one paid any attention to instructions. This is a fascinating discussion as it sprawls over all available topics and I appreciate the input from everyone.

Now back to our regularly scheduled dissent, hue and outcry.

We all seem to wander from a threads original topic. I'm most guilty of that.

I believe in God and what He tells us in His word. He says that Jesus will return to this Earth in the same way that He left it. A Spirit being who was able to be seen and touched and heard.

First, there will be what the Christians refer to as a rapture of believers. This means that at any given point in time,when God chooses to, He will remove all the believers in Christ that are still alive from this Earth. He takes them up to Heaven instantly, the same way Jesus was brought to Heaven during His ressurection. Then a period of 7 years will go by. Those who didn't get raptured from the earth are still living here for those 7 years. They are the unbelievers. They will be wondering where the Christians all went. They will figure it out, I'm sure. They have only those 7 years time left to turn from their unbelief and accept Jesus as their Savior. It will be difficult for them to do this because first, God removes His Holy Spirit from the earth, and His Holy Spirit is the one who draws people to God, and secondly, because those in charge on the earth will be forcing them not to turn to God by making it impossible for them to buy or sell anything unless they put a mark of some kind on their hand or forehead. This mark will be a sign of their allegiance to whatever government or peron that is in charge at the time. (It is really the devil himself) Those who refuse to take the mark will be killed. (It's okay though if they are killed, because their reward will be eternal life for believeing in Jesus.) When Jesus returns, He will bring all of the believers who were raptured and all the believers in God throughout history who died and went to heaven, back to the earth with Him. He will bring this Earth under His control and headship. The bible teaches that Satan will be removed from here, and there will be a time (1000 years) of Jesus' ruling over the people here. AFTER that, Satan will be released, for a short time, and once again he deceives people to go his way and turn from God. Then the earth as we know it will be destroyed and God will make a new heaven and a new earth for the believers to dwell in forever. Believeres will live eternally. The Earth will be destroyed with fire. All the unbelievers will perish in it. This is known as going to Hell. Hell is really this Earth that we live on. The believers will receive a new Heaven and Earth that God will create just for them to dwell in forever. Unbelievers will die and be no more. They are destroyed and perish.

This is how the end plays out. God gave us all this information in the bible. He wants us to be prepared and to know what is going to happen. He has never been wrong before in his fortelling of future events. In the Old Testament, He fortold of the Birth, death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus, and it came to pass exactly as He said it would. Because of this, I can believe what He tells me will happen in the future.

[Llyra 3]

I truly don't mean any disrespect for your beliefs, Patty, but this version of Truth makes the Creator sound vengeful, capricious, and just plain nasty. This interpretation of Revelations along with the visual of all the good Christians rubbing their hands together in glee because they're gonna get saved and all those unbelievers are finally gonna get theirs makes me wonder how on earth someone can embrace such a terror-based mythology and speak of it as a religion of compassion and love. Why would a loving God, having put Satan in the slammer for 1000 years of peace, suddenly release the SOB to wreck havoc on a world ruled by the Prince of Peace?

Edited August 18, 2010 by Llyra

[pattygreen 5]

I truly don't mean any disrespect for your beliefs, Patty, but this version of Truth makes the Creator sound vengeful, capricious, and just plain nasty. This interpretation of Revelations along with the visual of all the good Christians rubbing their hands together in glee because they're gonna get saved and all those unbelievers are finally gonna get theirs makes me wonder how on earth someone can embrace such a terror-based mythology and speak of it as a religion of compassion and love. Why would a loving God, having put Satan in the slammer for 1000 years of peace, suddenly release the SOB to wreck havoc on a world ruled by the Prince of Peace?

God isn't vengeful. He's just. He is loving and caring and merciful and gracious. But he is also just and fair. He gives all those who choose to be seperated from Him exactly what they want. How is that vengeful or nasty? If you choose all your life to ignore your Cretaor and decide for yourself that you will live as you please and answer to no one, and if you hear about the Savior he has sent for you and dismiss it as a fairytale, (and it was a very great sacrifice of God to send His one and only Son to rescue us, btw), Then how is it unjust for Him to give you what you've always wanted in the end? Seperation from Him.

As for the visual of all the Christians rubbing their hands together in glee, I can assure you that it is your personal visual and not true of Christians. EVERY Christian that I know personally is in constant prayer for the unsaved. They know what it is to be an unbeliever, for they were one at one time, and they understand their fate. They want everyone to know Christ as they do. Not one is thinking "they're gonna get theirs now". This is very untrue. Christians understand that everyone is just as sinful as everyone else in the world. There is none that is good and just. If it weren't for Jesus, we'd all perish. I know that I personally pray for the souls of unbelievers on a daily basis.

God releases Satan after the 1000 year reign of Christ because there will still be some who even though Jesus has ruled the earth for that long and they have seen the peace and love that they could have, who will still choose not to belong to His family. Hard to believe, but it's true.

The bible teaches that God will seperate the believers from the unbelievers. The believers will live with Him and the unbelievers will perish. Thus eternity begins, with only those who truly love God and want to be with Him forever.

[Llyra 3]

Thank you for the explanation. It's an interesting point of view.

I don't understand how it follows that people who don't believe a loving god would take the form of Revelations' YHWH are necessarily living a self-centered godless life and yearn for a lake of eternal fire. That's a pretty nasty assumption. Just as Christians rubbing their hands while they watch sinners fall into a pit of fire is an extreme and not all together true picture, neither is it a true picture to imagine self-centered hedonistic pagans, Buddhists, Jews and Native American spirituals bent only on their own pleasures in flagrant disobedience to the Creator.

I believe in God, the Creator, the Great Spirit, but I don't worship a diety who threatens his children with eternal damnation and the return of the Evil One in order to force obedience. This is not a compassionate, loving god.

[BJean 16]

Just so's you know llyra, this is all going to happen real soon too. All signs point to it.

Nevermind that they've been saying that since I was a wee little lassie. The fundamentalists live in an odd fugue state of mind where they appear to rationally quote scripture that supports their beliefs but in that moment can't seem to remember a thing about the scriptures that contradict their beliefs. Although when confronted with the contradictions, they snap back with interpretations that to you and me might sound convoluted, but to them make total sense. They have it fully mapped out as proof to the world that what they believe is the ONLY acceptable interpretation of the Bible. It is interesting to read and watch.

One of their favorite sayings is that if they're wrong, what do they have to lose, whereas if we're wrong we'll burn in hell. They are so buried in their little world, so covered up with words and claims of righteousness, they will probably never understand the spiritual truth that many loving, beautiful people have learned and experience. They do not know they do not know.

[pattygreen 5]

Thank you for the explanation. It's an interesting point of view.

I don't understand how it follows that people who don't believe a loving god would take the form of Revelations' YHWH are necessarily living a self-centered godless life and yearn for a lake of eternal fire. That's a pretty nasty assumption. Just as Christians rubbing their hands while they watch sinners fall into a pit of fire is an extreme and not all together true picture, neither is it a true picture to imagine self-centered hedonistic pagans, Buddhists, Jews and Native American spirituals bent only on their own pleasures in flagrant disobedience to the Creator.

I believe in God, the Creator, the Great Spirit, but I don't worship a diety who threatens his children with eternal damnation and the return of the Evil One in order to force obedience. This is not a compassionate, loving god.

The God of the bible doesn't threaten His children at all. He actually loves them very much. Damnation is eternal, that's true, but that means that it is a forever judgement. Not a forever torture. Once the unbeliever dies, he is dead and gone. God is compassionate and loving. Once it has been made,(the judgement) there is no turning back. You have been destroyed. You perish. Some people feel that there is nothing after this life is over. You die and that's it, it's over. Your body rots in the ground. In a sense that is true if you haven't believed in Jesus. For only those who believe in Him will live forever. The others die. So, life can be forever if we want it to be. That's why believers in Jesus do not fear death. They understand that it is really just the beginning.

There will come a day, in the end, when God will judge the people. Both believers and unbelievers. They will come out of their resting places and stand before God, for all who have died before us sleep or rest until the judgement day. The believers will have Jesus to be their attorney. Jesus will tell the Judge (God) that this believers punishment for His sins has been paid for. He is justified before God. God allows Him to go free into His eternal home. The unbeliever will not have an attorney. (someone to advocate for them) They will have to stand before God and give an account for their sins. They may try to tell God how "good" they were and all of the the "good" things they have done. It will not be enough. Our deeds don't allow us entrance, only our faith in God's Son is acceptable. Nothing can 'save' us from our sins except Jesus. God will condemn the unbeliever to Hell. Which is death. The unbeliever will be placed back on this earth with all unbelievers and this earth will be destroyed with fire. Then God will create a new earth and heaven for the believers.

I know that people who don't believe in God are not standing around "yearning" for a lake of fire, as you stated, but they are not "yearning" for a relationship with the one who made them either. God's goal in each persons life here is to draw them to Himself. When they ignore Him, they are choosing to. God has made Himself known to every person in some way or another. Some see the Creator in Nature. Some are reading these words I write. Some hear about his love in churches areound the world. Some See him in His Creation. God uses the believers to spread the news about him. Some realize God's handiwork when they witness the birth of their child. Others see Jesus in His children, the Christians they know personally. God prompts our hearts to think of Him. The Holy Spirit works at each heart and mind and gently shows the reality of God to His creation. It is then their decision to believe in Him or not. Why do you think you are here? To make that choice. That is your only most important decision in life. Everything else you do during your life time is irrelivent and secondary to making that choice before you die.

Edited August 19, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

One of their favorite sayings is that if they're wrong, what do they have to lose, whereas if we're wrong we'll burn in hell. They are so buried in their little world, so covered up with words and claims of righteousness, they will probably never understand the spiritual truth that many loving, beautiful people have learned and experience. They do not know they do not know. [END]

You have yet to fill us in on this "spiritual truth" that you have found. If it's so wonderful, why don't you share it?

[loserbob 11]

The God of the bible doesn't threaten His children at all. He actually loves them very much. Damnation is eternal, that's true, but that means that it is a forever judgement. Not a forever torture. Once the unbeliever dies, he is dead and gone. God is compassionate and loving. Once it has been made,(the judgement) there is no turning back. You have been destroyed. You perish. Some people feel that there is nothing after this life is over. You die and that's it, it's over. Your body rots in the ground. In a sense that is true if you haven't believed in Jesus. For only those who believe in Him will live forever. The others die. So, life can be forever if we want it to be. That's why believers in Jesus do not fear death. They understand that it is really just the beginning.

There will come a day, in the end, when God will judge the people. Both believers and unbelievers. They will come out of their resting places and stand before God, for all who have died before us sleep or rest until the judgement day. The believers will have Jesus to be their attorney. Jesus will tell the Judge (God) that this believers punishment for His sins has been paid for. He is justified before God. God allows Him to go free into His eternal home. The unbeliever will not have an attorney. (someone to advocate for them) They will have to stand before God and give an account for their sins. They may try to tell God how "good" they were and all of the the "good" things they have done. It will not be enough. Our deeds don't allow us entrance, only our faith in God's Son is acceptable. Nothing can 'save' us from our sins except Jesus. God will condemn the unbeliever to Hell. Which is death. The unbeliever will be placed back on this earth with all unbelievers and this earth will be destroyed with fire. Then God will create a new earth and heaven for the believers.

I know that people who don't believe in God are not standing around "yearning" for a lake of fire, as you stated, but they are not "yearning" for a relationship with the one who made them either. God's goal in each persons life here is to draw them to Himself. When they ignore Him, they are choosing to. God has made Himself known to every person in some way or another. Some see the Creator in Nature. Some are reading these words I write. Some hear about his love in churches areound the world. Some See him in His Creation. God uses the believers to spread the news about him. Some realize God's handiwork when they witness the birth of their child. Others see Jesus in His children, the Christians they know personally. God prompts our hearts to think of Him. The Holy Spirit works at each heart and mind and gently shows the reality of God to His creation. It is then their decision to believe in Him or not. Why do you think you are here? To make that choice. That is your only most important decision in life. Everything else you do during your life time is irrelivent and secondary to making that choice before you die.

I believe in reincarnation!

[Llyra 3]

I know that people who don't believe in God are not standing around "yearning" for a lake of fire, as you stated, but they are not "yearning" for a relationship with the one who made them either.

You are wrong, you know. They are just not yearning for a relationship with a god of vengeance, destruction, and unfathomable contridictions as described in your posts. There are many ways to the Great Spirit, but I understand that Christians only acknowledge their own. And once again, as long as nothing is legislated in favor of Christianity and against the rest of us, that is fine with me.

You have yet to fill us in on this "spiritual truth" that you have found. If it's so wonderful, why don't you share it?

If asked privately and repectfully about my beliefs, I might share them, but I believe the interaction between the Great Spirit and an individual is sacred and not something to spoken of lightly in a forum as a subject for debate.

Dear Patty, thank you for your input and explanation of what you believe. I will bow out of the debate now with best wishes to you and everyone who has contributed to the discussion.

Blessings on you all.

Llyra

Edited August 19, 2010 by Llyra

[Cleo's Mom 257]

You are wrong, you know. They are just not yearning for a relationship with a god of vengeance, destruction, and unfathomable contridictions as described in your posts. There are many ways to the Great Spirit, but I understand that Christians only acknowledge their own. And once again, as long as nothing is legislated in favor of Christianity and against the rest of us, that is fine with me.

If asked privately and repectfully about my beliefs, I might share them, but I believe the interaction between the Great Spirit and an individual is sacred and not something to spoken of lightly in a forum as a subject for debate.

Dear Patty, thank you for your input and explanation of what you believe. I will bow out of the debate now with best wishes to you and everyone who has contributed to the discussion.

Blessings on you all.

Llyra

Llyra, I sure hope you continue to come on here and share your intelligent thoughts. How refreshing to have someone so well spoken. WillBeHealthy is another one, who like you, is informed, knowledgable and smart.

I hope you will weigh in on other issues on here as well. I, for one, would look forward to your input.

And BTW, I think you have presented more compelling and truthful arguements for your beliefs than others have for theirs.

[BJean 16]

"If asked privately and repectfully about my beliefs, I might share them, but I believe the interaction between the Great Spirit and an individual is sacred and not something to spoken of lightly in a forum as a subject for debate."

I like the words you used to explain here, Llyra.

I believe that the discovery of one's own spirituality and beliefs is a process unless one simply accepts the Bible at face value. My process began when I was first exposed to religious teachings in the Methodist church when I was very young. It has progressed as I have learned and grown after having been exposed to many more faiths and many more teachers. I dare say that over my life, I have probably been exposed to more religions and belief systems than many people have. I have mostly kept an open mind to other doctrines in order to explore what inspires and comforts people, spiritually. And to discover truth - my truth for my life here and for eternity.

If a person is open to learning from others; other people, other books, other philosophies, not just what is presented in the most popular book, it can be incredibly enlightening. But this is not something one can teach another - it is a process. And it is a process that some people completely close themselves off to because of fear and ignorance.

When scripture and preachers put the fear of God in a person, it is very hard to understand anything else. But having said that, I mean that it's is true for me. I am but one person on a journey to enlightenment, I am certainly not a teacher or prophet and I'm not even on a mission.

On the other hand, I would be happy to think that something I said inspired someone to open their minds and hearts and to understand that true spiritual enlightenment is not something that is separate from their God, instead it is all-encompassing. And once the fear that has been so thoroughly instilled is quieted, it opens one up to much greater love and a life focusing on good things instead of judging others and thinking so much about fear and evil.

[pattygreen 5]

You are wrong, you know. They are just not yearning for a relationship with a god of vengeance, destruction, and unfathomable contridictions as described in your posts. There are many ways to the Great Spirit, but I understand that Christians only acknowledge their own. And once again, as long as nothing is legislated in favor of Christianity and against the rest of us, that is fine with me.

Please explain how God is vengeful?

As for destructive, it is only what unbelievers want. They don't want a relationship with Him, so the only other alternative is death. There are 2 choices: life or death. Unbelievers already know that when they get old, they die. They are okay with this, because it is the way it is. If they want to die and they want life everlasting, they must love their creator. He doesn't want a family who doesn't love him back. I wouldn't either. That's not a family. Family is one of love and trust, who wouldn't want that?

If asked privately and repectfully about my beliefs, I might share them, but I believe the interaction between the Great Spirit and an individual is sacred and not something to spoken of lightly in a forum as a subject for debate.

Actually, I was talking to bjean when I said that I haven't, as of yet, heard of her spiritual truths she has found.

Dear Patty, thank you for your input and explanation of what you believe. I will bow out of the debate now with best wishes to you and everyone who has contributed to the discussion.

Blessings on you all.

Llyra

Okay Llyra. God bless you.

[pattygreen 5]

bjean, You speak of christians as people who believe what they do out of fear. You say that they think much about fear and evil.

I don't agree. I am a Christian, and have never been fearful of anything. I never think about fear or evil.

I do, however, have a healthy "fear" of God. But that is not the kind of fear that you speak of, as in frightened by Him. I have respect and awe for God. I know who He is and understand His awesome power and I revere Him as my God and Father. I worship Him and love Him.

The following is a better way of understanding a Christians "fear" of God.

Question: "What does it mean to have the fear of God?"

Answer: For the unbeliever, the fear of God is the fear of the judgment of God and eternal death, which is eternal separation from God (Luke 12:5; Hebrews 10:31). For the believer, the fear of God is something much different. The believer's fear is reverence of God. Hebrews 12:28-29 is a good description of this: “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our ’God is a consuming fire.’” This reverence and awe is exactly what the fear of God means for Christians. This is the motivating factor for us to surrender to the Creator of the Universe.

Proverbs 1:7 declares, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.” Until we understand who God is and develop a reverential fear of Him, we cannot have true wisdom. True wisdom comes only from understanding who God is and that He is holy, just, and righteous. Deuteronomy 10:12, 20-21 records, “And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.” The fear of God is the basis for our walking in His ways, serving Him, and, yes, loving Him.

Some redefine the fear of God for believers to “respecting” Him. While respect is definitely included in the concept of fearing God, there is more to it than that. A biblical fear of God, for the believer, includes understanding how much God hates sin and fearing His judgment on sin—even in the life of a believer. Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God’s discipline of the believer. While it is done in love (Hebrews 12:6), it is still a fearful thing. As children, the fear of discipline from our parents no doubt prevented some evil actions. The same should be true in our relationship with God. We should fear His discipline, and therefore seek to live our lives in such a way that pleases Him.

Believers are not to be scared of God. We have no reason to be scared of Him. We have His promise that nothing can separate us from His love (Romans 8:38-39). We have His promise that He will never leave us or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5). Fearing God means having such a reverence for Him that it has a great impact on the way we live our lives. The fear of God is respecting Him, obeying Him, submitting to His discipline, and worshipping Him in awe.

[BJean 16]

You see I tried to open up to you and instead of having an exchange of ideas on the subject, you get fully emersed in a lecture. And I've heard it all before. More than once. And stated better (even though I know you've just copied someone else's writings.)

And I would disagree with your characterization of the fear you feel. Your words belie the fact that you are fearful in the way that I mean it. You costantly speak of fear and evil and I suppose from what you've posted above, you aren't even aware of it.

And I don't doubt that you love and are in awe of the God you describe. But we are God and God is us and the way you speak of Him, is the way you feel about yourself. You just don't know it. You do not understand these things, you parrot. That is, at least, how it seems to me although I know you think differently.

C'est la vie. It's what makes the world go 'round. I will continue to discuss religion if I decide to but it is silly for me to go one on one with you because I have heard all you have to say on the subject - and much more. I know what I know and I know what you do not know and it is obvious that you are content with not knowing and I cannot change that nor am I motivated to help someone who is so terribly closed minded and judgemental.

[pattygreen 5]

You see I tried to open up to you and instead of having an exchange of ideas on the subject, you get fully emersed in a lecture. And I've heard it all before. More than once. And stated better (even though I know you've just copied someone else's writings.)

I thought that this was an exchange on the subject between the two of us. I read what you posted and I was explaining why you mistaken about how Christians feel. There is no fear for them. We don't believe in God because we fear not to. We believe in God because He's real and we love our Father.

And I would disagree with your characterization of the fear you feel. Your words belie the fact that you are fearful in the way that I mean it. You costantly speak of fear and evil and I suppose from what you've posted above, you aren't even aware of it.

Please bring up any post of mine in the past where I am fearful or speak of fear as it relates to my being a Christian. I can remember a time when you stated that I only believed the way I did out of fear of going to hell, but that was just your assumption, not the truth. If one is afraid of death, then they'd be just as afraid of Hell, for death is hell. I have stated in the past that one does not have to fear death if they are a Chriatian, for there is no death for Christians, only life forever. This statement does not mean that Christians were fearful of death and therefore they became Christians. This just means that once they became God's children, the wonderful blessing of having life eternal was granted to them. It's a beautiful gift from God. One we only need to ask Him for. He gives it freely to all.

And I don't doubt that you love and are in awe of the God you describe.

Why would you doubt that?

But we are God and God is us and the way you speak of Him, is the way you feel about yourself.

Actually, it's: "We are NOT God, God lives in those who believe in Him."

The way I speak of God is the way HE speaks of Himself in the bible. I do not feel that I am worthy of Praise and Honor and Majesty and Glory. So, how can you say that the way I think of God is the way I think of myself?

You just don't know it. You do not understand these things, you parrot. That is, at least, how it seems to me although I know you think differently.

One thing I do know. If you feel that "you are God", you are in for a rude awakening one day. You are NOT God or anywhere near being God. NO ONE could be God, but God alone. He is the Creator and if you are God and I am God and your neighbor is God, which one should we worship and call Father? You? Who created who? Your neigbor God? Come on. You know you're not God.

C'est la vie. It's what makes the world go 'round. I will continue to discuss religion if I decide to but it is silly for me to go one on one with you because I have heard all you have to say on the subject - and much more. I know what I know and I know what you do not know and it is obvious that you are content with not knowing and I cannot change that nor am I motivated to help someone who is so terribly closed minded and judgemental.

I don't need any of your help, nor have I asked for it. With Jesus, I have all the help I need. All I have to do is call on His name. He has never let me down.

............................................