Do you believe in a god or gods?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Here's where you're wrong. Marriage is defined by and recognized by the state. Religion and God have nothing to do with it. The state recognizes a marriage performed by a judge or justice of the peace just the same as a minister or priest. That is all the gays want - that their marriage be recognized by the state so that all the marriage benefits can be conferred upon them. They do not want or ask for any of your religious "blessings".[end quote]

Where do you think the "state" got marriage? It is a God ordained institution and cermony between a man and a woman to make a family together.

DavidKretzmann.com

Marriage is one of the most controversial and debated issues in the U.S. today. It seems to me that both sides of the argument are missing a key question: why is government even involved in marriage?

The history of marriage licenses is not widely known. In the early history of our republic, marriage was a family, church, and community issue. Marriage was a private contract, outside of the jurisdiction and power of the government (although unfortunately there were laws preventing whites and blacks from marrying):

No State shall [...] pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts - Article 1, Section 10; United States Constitution

Imagine it! You didn't need permission from the government to marry, the state didn't dictate the rules of marriage, the government was in its proper role of protecting private contracts. Then marriage licenses started popping up in various states, primarily in the later part of the 19th century. The legal definition of license is, "The permission granted by competent authority to exercise a certain privilege that, without such authorization, would constitute an illegal act."

States started requiring licenses in only one case of marriage: interracial marriage. If two whites wanted to marry, it remained a private issue and the government respected the contract. By creating marriage licenses, the states were easily able to regulate and prohibit interracial marriages (such as a white marrying a black, Native American, Japanese, Chinese, etc.). Most states wanted to keep interracial marriage in their complete control through licenses.

In 1923, Congress passed the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act, and by 1929 every state had created marriage license laws and carried control over marriage. This is essentially the system we have had for more than 80 years, and today people seem to have forgotten that there is another way around either legalizing or prohibiting homosexual marriage: return to the concept of private contracts.

So, you see? State's marriage laws were first written to prevent inter-racial marriages. God had nothing to do with it. Still doesn't.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Please excuse me if this has already been posted. Llyra

In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

Response:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in

Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an

abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than

homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there

'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two

different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threa (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go

to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan.

(author unknown)

PS It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a

Canadian

Great post. But you have to understand that these people start with an ultra conservative political position and then work backward to interpret the bible to support that position. They will cherry pick if need be or just simply interpret contradictory passages their way or just ignore them.

The religious right of today was born out of a political movement. You can read about the history of the movement. How it started, who started it. Remember all those tv evangelists (some of whom went to jail, others just sinned?)? The bible has been around for a lot longer than them. But they started using it to support their political positions. And the movement took off.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

RE: People who claim God wants them to run for office, invade Iraq, etc...

Susan B. Anthony so eloquently put it:

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires

[Llyra 3]

Susan B. Anthony was one heck of a gal.

My own point of view, which I don't expect others to accept or adopt, is that established religions are socio-political organizations with agendas that adherents feel morally obligated to foist on the rest of the world.

I don't give a rip which religious mythology a person finds comfort in as long as that person makes no attempt to turn it into law. But just for the sake of argument:wink2::

The ceremonial laws were abolished when the Messiah came. The other moral laws are to be upheld because Jesus reinforced them in the New Testament.

I doubt the words in red are the only ones ever spoken by Jesus. The possibility exists that Biblical editors missed a few or misinterpreted a few here and there. Remember the Wicked Bible that had the misprint, "Thou Shalt Commit Adultery." What if that had become the version of the Bible that got passed on to us?

There is also a small matter of the picking and choosing that was done among the ancient writings that became the Bible- who decided Luke was da bomb and Thomas wasn't worth bothering with? See the Gnostic Gospel for further information.

[pattygreen 5]

DavidKretzmann.com

Marriage is one of the most controversial and debated issues in the U.S. today. It seems to me that both sides of the argument are missing a key question: why is government even involved in marriage?

The history of marriage licenses is not widely known. In the early history of our republic, marriage was a family, church, and community issue. Marriage was a private contract, outside of the jurisdiction and power of the government (although unfortunately there were laws preventing whites and blacks from marrying):

No State shall [...] pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts - Article 1, Section 10; United States Constitution

Imagine it! You didn't need permission from the government to marry, the state didn't dictate the rules of marriage, the government was in its proper role of protecting private contracts. Then marriage licenses started popping up in various states, primarily in the later part of the 19th century. The legal definition of license is, "The permission granted by competent authority to exercise a certain privilege that, without such authorization, would constitute an illegal act."

States started requiring licenses in only one case of marriage: interracial marriage. If two whites wanted to marry, it remained a private issue and the government respected the contract. By creating marriage licenses, the states were easily able to regulate and prohibit interracial marriages (such as a white marrying a black, Native American, Japanese, Chinese, etc.). Most states wanted to keep interracial marriage in their complete control through licenses.

In 1923, Congress passed the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act, and by 1929 every state had created marriage license laws and carried control over marriage. This is essentially the system we have had for more than 80 years, and today people seem to have forgotten that there is another way around either legalizing or prohibiting homosexual marriage: return to the concept of private contracts.

So, you see? State's marriage laws were first written to prevent inter-racial marriages. God had nothing to do with it. Still doesn't.

God Had EVERYTHING to do with marriage. It was His design for man and woman that He created. The States, when they began regulating every breath we take, (but this is something you love about government) then decided to make it a legality. BUT, GOD originated it.

[btrieger 21]

God Had EVERYTHING to do with marriage. It was His design for man and woman that He created. The States, when they began regulating every breath we take, (but this is something you love about government) then decided to make it a legality. BUT, GOD originated it.

Your god's perfect plan of 1 man, 1 woman is flawed. He accidentally made more women than men.

[pattygreen 5]

I don't give a rip which religious mythology a person finds comfort in as long as that person makes no attempt to turn it into law.[END]

Nor do I care. But tell me....Just what laws are Christians trying to make that have to do with their beliefs?

Abortion laws are laws against murder. We already have that kind of law. People, not just Christians, believe that life begins at conception, so to end it once it has begun is the same as murder.

Laws against Homosexual marriage have to do with changing the definition of what "marriage" is. Let the gay people come up with their own new word for what they want. They had Civil Unions. What's wrong with that? True, Christians believe it is a sin to have sex with the same sex, but they're not trying to stop anyone from doing it, and it's not just Christians who don't want to change what marriage is. Many other people believe it is an immoral act and are against it.

So, besides those 2 controversies, what kind of laws are Christians trying to impose on you or others?

Edited August 13, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

I doubt the words in red are the only ones ever spoken by Jesus. The possibility exists that Biblical editors missed a few or misinterpreted a few here and there. Remember the Wicked Bible that had the misprint, "Thou Shalt Commit Adultery." What if that had become the version of the Bible that got passed on to us?

There is also a small matter of the picking and choosing that was done among the ancient writings that became the Bible- who decided Luke was da bomb and Thomas wasn't worth bothering with? See the Gnostic Gospel for further information. [END]

God has His hand on everything. He will not allow His words to His creation to be tampered with. It is all we have to know Him by that is tangible. He has given us His words so that we will know the truths of life. If He allowed them to be the wrong words, or to be false, then mankind would have their excuses for not following them or believeing them. So, no, He can be trusted to give you what you need to know about Himself. The exact words. God Himself decided what would be written down for us and what letters and books to be included in the book. He created the universe and everything in it, you don't think He could manage to put a book that's correct together for us?

[pattygreen 5]

Your god's perfect plan of 1 man, 1 woman is flawed. He accidentally made more women than men.

He must have known that there would be some women that wouldn't want a man. lol (They'd want to remain single.)

[btrieger 21]

He must have known that there would be some women that wouldn't want a man. lol (They'd want to remain single.)

Or, they would want another woman or men are suppose to marry multiple women.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Modern marriage is defined by the state from which one must obtain a license to get married and as I posted earlier was started to oppose inter-racial marriage.

That being said, the legal rights that the state (not church or religious institution) confers upon people depend on the couple getting a license. Who marries them - justice of the peace, magistrate, priest, rabbi, minister, is irrelvant. All of those licensed marriages are legitimate. And they are considered a marriage because of the license from the state and meeting the requirements for obtaining the license, not because God had anything to do with it.

Two people - man/woman, man/man or woman/woman who are able to obtain a state marriage license are considered married.

Those who get married by a religious person without a license are not considered married by the state and wouldn't be eligible for the legal benefits that marriage confers.

So, it's not what you call it - it's whether the state will extend the legal benefits to same sex couples.

So regardless of what God said about marriage, it's what the state says that the courts look at for deciding whether a marriage is legitimate and therefore eligible for all the benefits that marriage brings. And that's what same sex couples want - the benefits. What you call it is not as important as the state recognition.

[Llyra 3]

Well, the two laws you mention are good to start. And then we have Kansas weighing into the matter with its decision re: the teaching of creation science. And of course Christmas is a legal holiday while I can't get Midsummer Eve off without taking a vacation day. Would you like for me to continue?

He created the universe and everything in it, you don't think He could manage to put a book that's correct together for us? ...If He allowed them to be the wrong words, or to be false, then mankind would have their excuses for not following them or believeing them.

Please see reference to the Wicked Bible. I can give you other Bible Blooper references if you like, as well as a number of passages of debated meaning.

PS Patty I wasn't originally referring only to Christians but to organized religions in general, but since you asked what laws Christians were interested in pushing I answered that question specifically and only in respect to the USA.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Llyra
PS

[pattygreen 5]

Well, the two laws you mention are good to start. And then we have Kansas weighing into the matter with its decision re: the teaching of creation science. And of course Christmas is a legal holiday while I can't get Midsummer Eve off without taking a vacation day. Would you like for me to continue?

If those who belong to the athiest faith can have their theory of evolution taught in public schools, why can't the theory of creation be taught? They are both theories, right? Science can not , nor does it claim, that evolution is the truth. Let each man decide for himself, but the door to the truth should not be closed.

Christmas is a legal holiday in the USA because this is a "Christian" Nation. The Founding Fathers made this nation with Christianity as its Center. Who do you atribute for the great blessings of this country? Man? No. It is God. Without Him, we would surely be destroyed. He has blessed this nation because of its willingness to Honor Him. (Although that is slowly deminishing over time) What's on our money? "In God we trust". What's in our pledge? "One Nation under who?" God. What does our national anthem say in its melody? Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,

And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Throughout history, nations have built monuments, usually to record victories in battle or to honor their gods. Every nation's monuments and national symbols reflect the heart of the people and identify what they believe is the source of their nation's greatness and achievements.

However, America's monuments were not built to record countries conquered or battles won. Our memorials contain the declaration that the source of our birth, liberty, and greatness is God.

A tour of our historic sites reveals that America was a nation birthed by men who had a firm reliance upon Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ.

The Washington Monument

From the tallest structure in Washington a message of "Praise be to God" goes forth. Engraved upon the aluminum capstone on the top of this 555-foot monument is Laus Deo. Inside the structure are carved tribute blocks with many Godly messages: "Holiness to the Lord," "Search the Scriptures," "The memory of the just is blessed," and others.

The Library of Congress

Within the Great Hall of the Jefferson Building are two cases, one containing a Gutenberg Bible and the other a hand-copied Giant Bible of Mainz. The display of these two Bibles is appropriate because, in the words of President Andrew Jackson, "The Bible is the rock upon which our republic rests." Many biblical inscriptions can be found on the ceiling and walls.

In the Main Reading Room are statues and quotes representing fields of knowledge. Moses and Paul represent religion, with the inscription, "What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God?"

The Supreme Court

The biblical foundation of American law is evidenced throughout this building. On the outside East Pediment is a marble relief of Moses holding tablets containing the Ten Commandments. Engraved on the oak doors at the entrance of the Court Chamber are the Roman numerals I through X, and above the heads of the justices is a carved marble relief with a large stone tablet containing I through X (each set of numerals represents ancient law -- that is, the Ten Commandments).

The Capitol Building

All of the eight large paintings in the Rotunda present aspects of our Christian history, including The Baptism of Pocahontas and Departure of the Pilgrims from Holland which depicts the Pilgrims observing a day of prayer and fasting.

"In God We Trust," our national motto, is inscribed in letters of gold behind the speaker's rostrum in the House Chamber. Also in this chamber, above the central Gallery door, is a marble relief of Moses, the greatest of 23 noted law-givers.

The White House

An inscription by the first president to inhabit the White House, John Adams, is cut into the marble facing of the State Dining Room fireplace. It reads: "I pray Heaven to Bestow the Best of Blessings on THIS HOUSE and on All that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under this Roof."

Many other monuments and buildings in Washington proclaim America's faith in God. On the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington National Cemetery is the inscription: "Here rests in honored glory an American soldier known but to God."

On the front facade of Union Station three scripture verses are engraved including, "Thou has put all things under his feet" and "The truth shall make you free." Lincoln's words on his memorial exclaim "that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom."

This brief tour of our nation's capital reveals that Christianity is the source of America's liberty and prosperity. In the words of the U.S. House of Representatives in 1854: "The great vital element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ." (excerpts from Stephen Mcdowell)

Edited August 14, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

So, you see, This Nation is a Christian Nation. That is why we Celebrate Jesus' birth and not Midsummer eve. BUT, in this country the founders have made it possible for the people who dwell here to worship and praise the God of your choosing. They have given you the freedom to worship Satan himself, or no one at all. In so doing, they have removed governments roll in religion. But they did not intend to remove Christianity from government. They expected high Christian moral standards in our laws and way of life here. You may live in this country and choose to forgo its Christian faith, or embrace it. It's up to you. But don't try to change us into a Nation that does not believe in the God of the bible by imposing immorality through the laws you try to pass on the Christians here. Liberals try to tell us that you can't legislate morality, but that is nonsense. Every law regulates morality, some successfully, some not. At least we should never imply that such immoral, degrading behavior is acceptable, and laws that permit such behavior do just that.

Edited August 14, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

While the concept of seperation of church and state might be implied by the first amendment which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....", it says nothing about the "separation of church and state." And, even if you accept the principle of the separation of church and state being 'implied' by the First Amendment, it's implication is not there to protect Americans from religion, it is there to protect religious Americans from the government.