Do you believe in a god or gods?

[pattygreen 5]

Wait for it, waaaaaaiiit for it and there she is!(Patty)

I know this is an old post but I just had to do that.

Go back to where you got the old post and read my response to it there, if you want it.

[BJean 16]

lrya: Philosophical debate is what we do here. It's fun. You should try it. You'd be surprised how much you can learn by not only reading things from people with whom you agree, but also reading posts by those you disagree with.

Edited July 28, 2010 by BJean

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Johann Hari

Columnist, London Independent

Posted: August 10, 2010 06:42 AM

The Slow, Whining Death of British Christianity

And now congregation, put your hands together and give thanks, for I come bearing Good News. My country, Britain, is now the most irreligious country on earth. This island has shed superstition faster and more completely than anywhere else. Some 63 percent of us are non-believers, according to an ICM study, while 82 percent say religion is a cause of harmful division. Now, let us stand and sing our new national hymn: Jerusalem was dismantled here/ in England's green and pleasant land.

How did it happen? For centuries, religion was insulated from criticism in Britain. First its opponents were burned, then jailed, then shunned. But once there was a free marketplace of ideas, once people could finally hear both the religious arguments and the rationalist criticisms of them, the religious lost the British people. Their case was too weak, their opposition to divorce and abortion and gay people too cruel, their evidence for their claims non-existent. Once they had to rely on persuasion rather than intimidation, the story of British Christianity came to an end.

Now that only six percent of British people regularly attend a religious service, it's only natural that we should dismantle the massive amounts of tax money and state power that are automatically given to the religious to wield over the rest of us. It's a necessary process of building a secular state, where all citizens are free to make up their own minds. Yet the opposition to this sensible shift - the separation of church and state Americans have known for centuries - is becoming increasingly unhinged. The Church of England, bewildered by the British people choosing to leave their pews, has only one explanation: Christians are being "persecuted" and "bullied" by a movement motivated by "Christophobia." George Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, says Christians are now "second class citizens" and it is only "a small step" to "a religious bar on any employment by Christians".

Really? Let's list some of the ways in which Christians, and other religious groups, are given special privileges every day in Britain. Start with the educational system. Every school in Britain is required by law to make its pupils engage every day in "an act of collective worship of a wholly or mainly Christian nature". Yes: Britain is still a nation with enforced prayer. The religious are then handed total control of 36 percent of our state-funded schools, in which to indoctrinate children into their faith alone.

These religious schools, paid for by the taxpayer, are disfiguring Britain. I know one reason I grew up without the prejudices of some of my older relatives was because I went to school with kids from every conceivable ethnic and religious group, and I could see they were just like me. A five year old will make friends with anyone, and he'll be much less likely to believe smears against those friends for the rest of their lives. But in Britain today, that mixing is happening less and less. Increasingly, the children of Christians are sent to one side, Jews to another, Muslims to another still, and they never see each other except from the window of their parents' cars. After the race riots in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley in 2001, the official investigations found that faith schools were a major cause.

So why keep them? Their defenders say these schools perform better in exams - and at first glance, it seems to be true. On average, they get higher grades. But look again. A number of studies, including by the conservative think thank Civitas, have blown a hole in this claim. They have proven that faith schools systematically screen out children who will be harder to teach: children from poor families, and less bright children. Once you look at how much a school improves the pupils it actually admits, the only real measure of a school's success, it turns out faith schools do less well than other schools - which isn't surprising given they waste so much time teaching them crazy nonsense like Virgin births and Noah's Ark. The British people instinctively know all this: 64 percent want every state school to be neutral when it comes to religion.

Special rights for the religious don't stop at the school gates. They automatically get 26 unelected bishops in the House of Lords. Public broadcasters are required by law to give them large amounts of money and time to screen religious propaganda. Jews and Muslims are allowed to ignore the laws on animal cruelty and engage in the barbaric practice of slitting the throats of live animals without numbing them in order to create Kosher and halal meat.

And it seems that, in crucial cases, religious figures are virtually exempted from the law. There is now overwhelming evidence that Joseph Ratzinger, the Pope, was involved for over twenty years in an international criminal conspiracy to cover up the rape of children by priests in his Church. (Check out the superb edition of the BBC's Panorama, 'Sex Crimes and the Vatican', for the evidence.) But when he arrives in Britain in September, our politicians will fawn over him, rather than dialling 999.

Given all this unearned privilege, how can Christians claim they are in fact being "persecuted"? Here are the cases they offer as "proof". A nurse called Shirley Chaplin turned up to work wearing a crucifix around her neck. Her hospital told her that they were worried the elderly and confused patients she worked with could grab at it, so they said she could pin the crucifix to her uniform instead if she liked. That's it. That's their cause celebre. Oh, and a woman called Theresa Davies who worked in a registry office, but refused to perform civil partnerships for gay couples, so... she was moved to working on reception.

In response, Carey and the CofE demand Christians be allowed to break the law requiring them to treat gay people equally when providing a service to the general public - and that any case where a Christian feels discriminated against should be judged by a special court of "sensitive" Christians. If we started allowing religious people to break basic anti-discrimination laws, where would we stop? Until 1975, the Mormon Church said black people didn't have souls. (They only changed their mind the day the Supreme Court ruled this was illegal, and God niftily appeared to their leader that morning and announced blacks were ensouled after all.) Would we let a Mormon registrar refuse to marry black people? Would it be "Mormonophobia" to object?

When Lord Chief Justice Laws, who is a Christian himself, ruled the exemptions demanded by Carey would be "irrational, divisive, and arbitrary", he threw an extraordinary tantrum and said Christians might begin to engage in "civil unrest". When I saw Carey make these threats on television, red-faced and rageful, it made me think of a nasty child in the playground who had been beating up the gay kids and spitting at the girls for years and is finally told to stop - only to start bawling that he's the one who is being picked on.

As their dusty Churches crumble because nobody wants to go there, the few remaining Christians in Britain will only become more angry and uncomprehending. Let them. We can't stop this hysterical toy-tossing stop us from turning our country into a secular democracy where everyone has the same rights, and nobody is granted special rights just because they claim their ideas come from an invisible supernatural being. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Holy Lamb of God to carve into kebabs - it's our new national dish. Amen, and hallelujah.

This is why we can't allow a specific religion to interject itself into our government.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[BJean 16]

Or religions, plural.

[loserbob 11]

I saw a funny bumper sticker yesterday, it said, "If you love Jesus honk your horn. If you want to meet him TEXT!

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I saw a funny bumper sticker yesterday, it said, "If you love Jesus honk your horn. If you want to meet him TEXT!

That is funny. And true.

[pattygreen 5]

Their case was too weak, their opposition to divorce and abortion and gay people too cruel, their evidence for their claims non-existent. [end]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing sin. What you, and others, fail to understand is that Christians oppose the sin (wrong actions), not the sinner (people). And because of your own misunderstanding of the Christians opposition you are offended by them. You think they "hate" others. You think they are "intollerent". You think they are "racists". I could go on, but you get the picture. Christians do not hate others because they are gay, or because they have an abortion, or because they get divorced, or because they steal. For they do these same things. They "hate" what they do. The sin. Christians LOVE others and care deeply for them and their souls and the outcome of what their actions and beliefs hold for them at the end of their time on this earth.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Their case was too weak, their opposition to divorce and abortion and gay people too cruel, their evidence for their claims non-existent. [end]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing sin. What you, and others, fail to understand is that Christians oppose the sin (wrong actions), not the sinner (people). And because of your own misunderstanding of the Christians opposition you are offended by them. You think they "hate" others. You think they are "intollerent". You think they are "racists". I could go on, but you get the picture. Christians do not hate others because they are gay, or because they have an abortion, or because they get divorced, or because they steal. For they do these same things. They "hate" what they do. The sin. Christians LOVE others and care deeply for them and their souls and the outcome of what their actions and beliefs hold for them at the end of their time on this earth.

We have no problem with your views. We have a big problem when you want to legislate those views and make them part of our government.

If you think abortion is murder - don't have one or let your daughter have one

If you think gay sex is a sin - don't do it

If you think premarital sex is a sin - don't do it

If you think divorce is a sin - don't get divorced

[BJean 16]

Their case was too weak, their opposition to divorce and abortion and gay people too cruel, their evidence for their claims non-existent. [end]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with opposing sin. What you, and others, fail to understand is that Christians oppose the sin (wrong actions), not the sinner (people). And because of your own misunderstanding of the Christians opposition you are offended by them. You think they "hate" others. You think they are "intollerent". You think they are "racists". I could go on, but you get the picture. Christians do not hate others because they are gay, or because they have an abortion, or because they get divorced, or because they steal. For they do these same things. They "hate" what they do. The sin. Christians LOVE others and care deeply for them and their souls and the outcome of what their actions and beliefs hold for them at the end of their time on this earth.

Sorry, I don't buy it. For someone who is homosexual, that IS who they are. It isn't just about sexual behavior. It goes to the very core of their being. Just as being a heretosexual goes to the very core of your being.

And when you HATE for any reason, you're not a good Christian trying to live by the example of what Jesus preached, whether it is the behavior you HATE or the individual. And when you take action against an individual because of that HATE, it makes no difference anyway - it's your behavior that is deplorable and that is what Jesus tried to teach you!

Furthermore, just because you SAY that you LOVE doesn't mean that you really do. Because your actions always speak louder (and more plainly) than your words. And many fundamental extremist believers hold a lot of HATE in their hearts when they demonstrate against someone with whom they philosophically disagree. And again, that is wrong and that is the basis of Jesus' message.

[pattygreen 5]

We have no problem with your views. We have a big problem when you want to legislate those views and make them part of our government.

If you think abortion is murder - don't have one or let your daughter have one

If you think gay sex is a sin - don't do it

If you think premarital sex is a sin - don't do it

If you think divorce is a sin - don't get divorced

WE are not trying to legislate our views. YOU are. Your view is that it is okay to kill babies and therefore, you have legislated it so. You feel that it is okay to allow 2 men or 2 women to be married and are trying to legislate it so. You feel that it is okay to get divorced, and have legislated it so. Etc. It is YOU who wants to allow all this sinfulness to be legislated and are accomplishing it slowly but surely.

It is I who has no conflict with your views. I don't care if you have sex with a dog, never mind another woman. I don't care if you get divorced. Kill all the babies you want. People can do whatever they choose to do. Just don't expect the rest in this country to sit back without a fight while you try to make it lawful to do your dirty deeds.

Everyone will have to stand before God one day and give an answer for what he has done in the flesh, whether good or bad. I will have to answer for what I allowed to occur here by my vote, and so will you. Even though I don't begrudge anyone from living any way they seem fit, I will not stand back and give my consent to it.

[BJean 16]

As usual patty, you have it backwards. People have constitutional rights. YOU want to take them away. We aren't wanting to take them away, we want people to be able to choose how they live in a free society. Our country has promised people that they have certain rights - you do not believe in certain things and so you wish for them to be outlawed which would effectively take away those rights that we've been promised. Like same sex marriage.

You said: "Everyone will have to stand before God one day and give an answer for what he has done in the flesh, whether good or bad."

And of course we know all about that. But what you don't understand ad nauseum is that we do not have to stand before YOU and give YOU an answer or explain anything about what we've chosen to do in the flesh to YOU. Because YOU are NOT God. And furthermore, you have no right to tell us how to live our lives by passing laws that take away our right to live as we believe - not as YOU believe.

[pattygreen 5]

Sorry, I don't buy it. For someone who is homosexual, that IS who they are. It isn't just about sexual behavior. It goes to the very core of their being. Just as being a heretosexual goes to the very core of your being.

I don't agree. Even if you are right, and it is who they are, the act of having sex with the same sex is a sin and God does not approve of it. Therefore, it should not be done, even if it is who they are. The bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong. It is an act that one can refuse to partake in if he or she so chooses. No one forces you to have sex. It is a choice we make whether to do it or not.

And when you HATE for any reason, you're not a good Christian trying to live by the example of what Jesus preached, whether it is the behavior you HATE or the individual.

Not true. God teaches us to hate sin. So, what your telling me is that if you 'hate' the drug use your child is involved with, you 'hate' your child? I am mature enough to seperate the two kinds of hate. Jesus hated it when the people went into God's house and set up tables to sell their wares. He got mad and turned over the tables and yelled at them for making God's house into a den of thieves. He didn't 'hate' the people. He hated what they were doing; their sin.

And when you take action against an individual because of that HATE, it makes no difference anyway - it's your behavior that is deplorable and that is what Jesus tried to teach you!

What "action" am I taking against a homosexual? Only trying to keep their sinful lifestyle from becoming an acceptable practice in America by not making it lawful for them to marry. That is all. They can go on and sin all they want. I don't care what they do in their own bedrooms. That's their business. I wont go in there and drag them apart. But try to change the law of the land and make it as if it were not sin and then I have a problem. So, what you're telling me is that Jesus wants sinful acts to be lawful?

Furthermore, just because you SAY that you LOVE doesn't mean that you really do. Because your actions always speak louder (and more plainly) than your words. And many fundamental extremist believers hold a lot of HATE in their hearts when they demonstrate against someone with whom they philosophically disagree. And again, that is wrong and that is the basis of Jesus' message.

And just how do you know what they hold in their hearts? You are judging them.

BTW, if you are speaking of me, all you have here are my 'words'. You don't know what my 'actions' are.

[BJean 16]

You silly goose. I was responding to your posts. Are they real or are they some made up tripe that you put out for fun and games? Either you believe what you write or you're just playing a game. Either way, I'm merely responding to what you write.

[BJean 16]

And btw, you continue to use the word HATE in your posts. Either you have that in your mind or your heart or both. If you didn't, you wouldn't think to use it so often whether you're accusing someone else of hating or whether it's really you who is feeling that emotion. The fact that it finds its way into your writings so often, one must conclude that it is definitely in your head and probably in your heart. Sorry dear. It is what it is. Unless you're just playing games here, of course.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

WE are not trying to legislate our views. YOU are. Your view is that it is okay to kill babies and therefore, you have legislated it so. You feel that it is okay to allow 2 men or 2 women to be married and are trying to legislate it so. You feel that it is okay to get divorced, and have legislated it so. Etc. It is YOU who wants to allow all this sinfulness to be legislated and are accomplishing it slowly but surely.

It is I who has no conflict with your views. I don't care if you have sex with a dog, never mind another woman. I don't care if you get divorced. Kill all the babies you want. People can do whatever they choose to do. Just don't expect the rest in this country to sit back without a fight while you try to make it lawful to do your dirty deeds.

Everyone will have to stand before God one day and give an answer for what he has done in the flesh, whether good or bad. I will have to answer for what I allowed to occur here by my vote, and so will you. Even though I don't begrudge anyone from living any way they seem fit, I will not stand back and give my consent to it.

The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was pushed by the christian right. That's legislation.

All the laws restricting abortion rights came from the christian right for the most part.

If you believe divorce is wrong then don't get a divorce but don't try to stand in the way of those who want to divorce. Geez.

Oh, and that sex with a dog? Must have gotten that from "man on dog" ultra right wing republican ex-senator Santorum that my state was happy to get rid of.

You claim that you don't want to legislate but that's exactly what you want to do when you CHANGE the laws to make marriage only between a man and a woman. If that was what marriage laws were all along, why the need for a new law? Why the need for a change? Because marriage wasn't clearly defined as between a man and woman and those on the right LEGISLATED that it be so.

No one is asking for your consent either. They just want you to get out of the way from them enjoying the same rights as everyone else. Same marriage benefits confered.

And no one wants your consent to have a lawful abortion. If you don't believe in it - don't have one, but don't stand in the way of a woman who chooses to have a lawful abortion.