Conservative VS Liberal

[pattygreen 5]

I have hosted 3 exchange students, one from Poland, one from Norway and one from Holland. They could not believe how easy our education system was, specifically homework. Of course you can look at the USA's standings the worldwide ranking of math and science knowledge and see what no homework gets you.

How sweet of you to blame the lack of work at home! NOT!

Put the blame where it belongs. On our teachers. They suck! Yet they want more money!

[pattygreen 5]

I am an intelligent, educated person. I can research things and make up my mind. Man is not my God, but my God gave me a brain to use, and a free will in which to use it.

If you choose to believe that your God will provide everything for you and solve all your problems, and do all your thinking for you, that is your perogative.

But don't try to insult me because I am a smart, educated, well-spoken person who bests you all the time on these boards.

Can you brag about yourself some more? Pleeeeaaase?

[Cleo's Mom 257]

How dare you say I must have been a terrible teacher.

I dare the same way you do when you call me stupid, smug, neocon, superior attitude, immature, liar, symboliclly living in a cave, hypocrite, etc. and that's just in the last 3 or 4 pages past. I dare because any teacher that can't cover all the work she desires for her students to do in a days time while she is supposed to be teaching them, is a terrible teacher. She gets paid to teach them, not the parents. If they wanted to teach their kids the material, they would home school them, like I do.

It was not possible to cover everything in 5.5 hours. Kids can't learn vocabulary words or spelling words in the time alloted. Reading is an activity that should be encouraged at home and it is by good parents. Plus most good parents I know enjoy helping their kids with projects and other school activities. They like to connect with what their kids have been spending their day doing.

You know nothing about me or my teaching. I was a very good teacher. I taught 2nd grade. One of the teachers in the grade below me told me she would give me her gifted students because she knew I did a lot of enrichment activities. Brag, brag, brag, (yawn) You're damn right I brag because I was a good teacher. I sure wouldn't expect some anti-government, anti-public school, anti-public school teacher person like you to acknowledge it.

I had excellent classroom management and got through all the curriculum in the year's time. I had the students for 5.5 hours. They had 1/2 hour for lunch, 1/2 hour at a special (art, music, etc..) each day. So the students were there for 6.5 hours a day. Plus there were times for assemblies maybe once or twice a month.

I had to cover 7 subjects in that 5.5 hours of time. Reading, math, spelling, handwriting, English, Social Studies, and Science. Reading was to be for 2 hours/day and math for 1 hour. That left 2.5 hours for the other 5 subjects. These are mandated times, not mine. Most of the work they needed to reinforce at home was reading vocabulary, math, spelling words, and some English writing. I sometimes assigned projects like dioramas or small reports.

Stop bragging! It's not bragging, it's an explanation of my typical day and what I taught. You were getting PAID to do what you were doing. Big deal. Everybody works alot at their specific jobs. You're no better than the next guy, just doing what you were supposed to be doing and getting a paycheck for it. I guarantee you I worked harder than any wall street CEO and paid a whole lot less.

My job DID require more work when I got home. I had 1/2 hour a day for planning for 7 subjects so I did a lot at home as well as grading papers and researching for enrichment activities to reinforce the learning concepts.

Yeah, your job required you to put in an 8 or 9 hour day, just like everybody else. 61/2 or 7 hours at the school and 1 or maybe 2 hours at home.No, I wasn't. Just another uninformed comment by you, among so many. I was paid for the 7.5 hours I was at school, NOT for any work I did outside of it. You were compensated with a salary. So, if you did some work at home, you were paid for it.Again, no I wasn't Do the kids get paid for doing additional work at home? No. Students don't get paid to study and work hard although I'm sure some lazy parents bribe them.

The parents that complained about homework were the lazy ones that didn't want to help with anything.

Parents who complained about homework couldn't stand that the government forced them to hand thier kids over to the public school system or be subject to arrest. Oh, so NOW we get to the crux of the matter. Your hatred of government and public schools and mandatory education. Is that part of the christian right kool aid you drink? They didn't think it was right that they were away from home for 9 hours at their job and their kids were at school for the same amount of time and then when they finally got to spend family time together the stupid teacher expected to interupt that time with the things she should have done with them while they were with her in school.Like I said, homework reinforces the day's learning and provides interested parents a chance to see what their child is doing. I spent all day working, then worked at my job at home and still had time to review my kid's homework and they are very smart, well, educated adults with good jobs now. And each of them played multiple sports after school and my daughter took piano lesson. Geez, how did we find time to do all those family things? Hmmm. She's getting paid to do that, BTW. She's the teacher, not them. Parents should show interest in what their children are learning in school, and talk to their kids about their studies, but kids should not be expected to have to give up their free time to do MORE school work, when everyone else in the workfield gets that time off when they go home!

You know what I think? I think you're a terrible person and a lousy christian and I feel sorry for any patient at the nursing home that you come into contact with.

I don't give a care what you think about me. You call me a terrible person, yet you are the one who calls me every name in the book. I thought I would just let up a little on my nicey niceness WHEN HAVE YOU EVER BEEN NICE OR SHOWN NICENESS TO ME? WHAT A LAUGH.:cursing:

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Can you brag about yourself some more? Pleeeeaaase?

I'm so sorry you feel intellectually inferior to me. Perhaps you can find someone to tutor you and try to catch up. :cursing:

[LeighaMason 19]

How sweet of you to blame the lack of work at home! NOT!

Put the blame where it belongs. On our teachers. They suck! Yet they want more money!

Can you read or is it just the big words that confuse you? My post said the students "could not believe how easy our education system was, specifically homework."

specifically--Concerned particularly with the subject specified.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Closing the hedge fund loophole

The tax extenders bill currently being cobbled together in the Senate (the House passed its bill already) would provide some much needed tax break extenders for job creation along with benefits and health care subsidies for the unemployed. This is potentially the last chance this session that Congress has a chance to do much in the way of job creation. This bill doesn't do a lot for jobs, but what it does is critical.

And to do it, it's going to take revenue--revenue in the form of closing a tax loophole for money managers, one that allows their income from money management to not actually be taxed as income, but as "carried interest" as though it were investment income rather than salary or wages. What does the resulting loss of revenue from that loophole look like? This

This is an example of how the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else. Someone has to pay more when they pay so little.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[loserbob 11]

How sweet of you to blame the lack of work at home! NOT!

Put the blame where it belongs. On our teachers. They suck! Yet they want more money!

All these posts about how we're basically a "stupid" country, why are we the richest, most technologically advanced country in the world? As far as the kids from Holland, Norway and I forget the other, lets face it, foreign exchange students arent stupid to begin with. Theyre usually at the top in their classes.

My problem with schools, at least the ones I went to is that they concentrate on the smart kids(a better use of words), the kids who try. How about finding a way to motivate the kids that dont try as hard(me). I dont consider myself stupid(no comments needed!), I just didnt care. My sister always did great in school, Deans list, National Honors Society, etc. She knew the school "guidance counselor" almost on a personal basis, I never met the school guidance counselor! Its easier to help the students who dont really need the help and it makes them (councelor)(not sure if Im spelling it right, DAMN YOU GUIDANCE COUNSELOR!!!)look better. Most importantly they dont have to work as hard! Its easy to help someone who asks for help. How about figuring out ways to help people who need it but dont know how to ask for it!!!

[lauragshsu 6]

All these posts about how we're basically a "stupid" country, why are we the richest, most technologically advanced country in the world? As far as the kids from Holland, Norway and I forget the other, lets face it, foreign exchange students arent stupid to begin with. Theyre usually at the top in their classes.

My problem with schools, at least the ones I went to is that they concentrate on the smart kids(a better use of words), the kids who try. How about finding a way to motivate the kids that dont try as hard(me). I dont consider myself stupid(no comments needed!), I just didnt care. My sister always did great in school, Deans list, National Honors Society, etc. She knew the school "guidance counselor" almost on a personal basis, I never met the school guidance counselor! Its easier to help the students who dont really need the help and it makes them (councelor)(not sure if Im spelling it right, DAMN YOU GUIDANCE COUNSELOR!!!)look better. Most importantly they dont have to work as hard! Its easy to help someone who asks for help. How about figuring out ways to help people who need it but dont know how to ask for it!!!

I am one of those teachers who wants to help everyone in whatever way possible. At my first teaching job, our principal made us make a graph of the students' test scores from the previous year. We then had to draw a line across marking where the passing score was. She didn't want us focusing on the high achieving kids, because they would "pass the state test no matter what". She didn't want us focusing on those who needed the help the most because they were "a waste of time". She only wanted us to focus on pushing those right near the passing line over that line, thus assuring the school gets funding another year.

I lost that job, because I refused to teach that way, focusing only on those I could help over the line, neglecting the high achievers, ignoring those who needed the most help. I wanted engaging, enriching lessons that were multi-sensory, hands on, not just reading chapters out of the book and answering questions. The funny thing is, the year I lost my job, my class was the only one in the ENTIRE school to pass the state test. Too bad the principal had alreayd sent me packing by the time the test results came in.

[LeighaMason 19]

why are we the richest, most technologically advanced country in the world?

Sorry but we're not. I'm not being Un-American here (everyones favorite new slander term) but its a reality. We are undereducated as a nation.

The Global Information Technology Report 2009-2010

Rank

Country

1 Sweden

2 Singapore

3 Denmark

4 Switzerland

5 USA

6 Finland

7 Canada

8 Hong Kong

9 Netherlands

10 Norway

OR

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita

RankCountry Intl. $ 

1Qatar83,841

2Luxembourg78,395

3Norway52,561

4Singapore50,523

5Brunei49,110

6United States46,381

7Switzerland43,007

—Hong Kong42,748

8Netherlands39,938

9Ireland39,468

10Australia38,911

ETA: My step children were at the top of thier class also but these high school kids were more like college juniors or seniors. 2 of them spoke 5 languages and the other one "only" spoke 3.

Edited June 8, 2010 by LeighaMason

[BJean 16]

A lot of parents drop their kids off in kindergarten and pick them up 13 years later at graduation. Those that do become "involved" are often those who complain about the teacher and/or defend their child from any criticism (behavior or academic).

Teachers should be held accountable for teaching and children should be held accountable for learning and there are parents that support this, but sadly, in my experience they are in the minority. They don't support homework, they don't support consequences for misbehavior, they think their child does no wrong.

I can go into a store and by seeing parents interact with their children tell you in which families the kids run the show. The parent asking the whining child which treat he wants... not this one? No, whines the child...how about this one? No, I want that one.. the whining child says. This is not a parent that will support the teacher or education. Parents are afraid of their kids and administrators are afraid of the parents.

I found this to be a huge problem in my teaching experience.

A disclaimer to start with... I am up late and expounding on a topic that I feel passionate about. The following is a diatribe off the top of my head. You might want to ignore it. Read at your own risk.

The way I see it these days is that parents spend so little quality time with their children they want:

1) No time spent on thoughtful discipline of their children because it takes too much time and energy. These are the same parents that get so frustrated that they wind up either screaming in the child's face or getting physical with them in a bad way when the child just can't make up his mind about the candy.< /p>

2) They think that if they take the child's side against a teacher they are being their child's advocate. And that makes them think they are a good parent to their child. What they need to understand is that education should be a team effort on the part of the parents and teachers. If everyone stopped to think about what is best for the child, including both the parent as well as the teacher, then the adults personalities wouldn't be the issue as they often are.

3) This day and age in families, both parents work to make more money to buy more things - although in some cases, especially single parent situations, having both parents work is an absolute necessity. When both parents are so strung out trying to work hard enough to keep their job, they're too tired to get involved in their kid's schooling. This isn't an excuse, but it is the way it is these days.

4) Teachers need to be able to do the job of educating our children during the hours they have them at school. We had some homework but not tons of homework like my son's boys do now. They are only in the second grade and even last year they had lots of homework every night. And usually the schools are frantically trying to make sure that the kids can pass the tests that are mandated rather than giving the students the knowledge that they need to become well-functioning members of society. The kind of homework that the boys had required parental assistance - there was no way around it. Sometimes the projects that students are expected to do are way, way over their ability and the parents wind up using their creativity to get it done. And of course there are those parents who just go on an ego trip every time they can and they aren't really considering what the child is learning in the process of doing one of these complicated projects.

I'm not a teacher like Cleo's although I am from a family of teachers. And I'm sure Cleo's and others will take issue with my comments which is certainly fair. But I do have strong opinions about public schools and that's also fair. And the only way we can get parents and teachers on the same page is if we stop the blame game that has been going on for years. There are reasons why some parents don't get involved in their kids schooling. And there are some teachers who are not good at their job. What we need to figure out is what are we going to do to improve our schools and give our children the best education possible.

And btw, that doesn't necessarily mean how can we give them more complicated courses to study. Sometimes it may mean that we need to simplify a bit and stop rushing our kids and stop trying to bully parents into participating. If the children are all going to be treated equal by the public school system, how can we require parental involvement as a necessary component when there are children who just do not have the benefit of parents who are available and can be involved?

An idea: maybe for those kids who do not have available parents, we could have volunteers - perhaps senior citizens - give their time to take the place of those missing parents?

It really does take a village or at least it should.

[leroyspuds 0]

Unfortunately, there are very few ways to make a living that don't require high level skills and education. Years ago a factory worker with no high school education could make a decent living. No more. In order for our children do be able to compete and survive in this world economy a quality education and superior technical skills are needed more than ever. What does that mean? Perhaps more homework, more difficult assignments, less time texting, playing Xbox and watching TV. Also, more involvement by parents and more support for teachers. We can't expect to invest little in our children and our education system and have our nation prosper and be secure.

This debate all started with Patty's assertion that teachers in her state were being greedy by wanting higher pay. Well, everyone would like higher pay in order to be able to maintain a decent standard of living so why attack the teaching profession specifically? I know Patty doesn't really feel that all teachers suck. Maybe some do, like employees of any profession, including CNAs. But most employees want to do a good job. I think the teaching profession is particularly difficult because teachers, in a sense, are helping raise our children a good part of the day. They can make or break a child's chance for a secure productive future. It's a very important role in our society and we should give them all the support they need. We need to invest in our education system because what we sew, so shall we reap.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I am one of those teachers who wants to help everyone in whatever way possible. At my first teaching job, our principal made us make a graph of the students' test scores from the previous year. We then had to draw a line across marking where the passing score was. She didn't want us focusing on the high achieving kids, because they would "pass the state test no matter what". She didn't want us focusing on those who needed the help the most because they were "a waste of time". She only wanted us to focus on pushing those right near the passing line over that line, thus assuring the school gets funding another year.

I lost that job, because I refused to teach that way, focusing only on those I could help over the line, neglecting the high achievers, ignoring those who needed the most help. I wanted engaging, enriching lessons that were multi-sensory, hands on, not just reading chapters out of the book and answering questions. The funny thing is, the year I lost my job, my class was the only one in the ENTIRE school to pass the state test. Too bad the principal had alreayd sent me packing by the time the test results came in.

Good for you for bucking the adminstrator, but I'm sorry it came at such a high cost to you.

I, too, bucked adminstrators, who were afraid of parents and when parents complained and said "jump" all they could say was "how high". They wanted Mary Poppins in the classroom who would tell parents how wonderful their children were. In other words, lie (when it wasn't the truth).

I know there are bad teachers because I worked with them, but many of them were bad for the reason I stated above. They didn't want complaints from parents. So they wouldn't tell the truth about their child.

Here are some examples:

-I first started teaching in 6th grade. A failing grade was 0%-69%. If a student made a 30% on a test, that is what I gave him. The other 6th grade teacher would never give a percent less than 69% so that student that got 30% would receive a 69% from him. Guess which teacher had tons on his honor roll and guess which teacher had just the ones who deserved it?

-when I taught second grade I quickly found out that the first grade teachers, wanting to be popular with the parents (and administrators) seldom retained students. The one first grade teacher would never put an F on a paper, even if the child deserved it, because it would be too distressing for the child, so this teacher also did grade inflation and wouldn't give below a D.

-so I would inherit students in 2nd grade who couldn't read and who obviously were struggling and should have been retained in 1st grade. So, I would be the bad guy and have to tell parents the truth and of course they would complain to the principal. But not one parent of a child I retained ever told me they regretted it, most told me it was a big help and they did much better the second time. A lot of the retentions were due to students who were the youngest in the class and just needed another year to mature (physically and intellectually).

-So, my point is that I wouldn't lie to parents about their children just to make them feel good. I told the truth about their academic progress and/or their classroom behavior (it always puzzled me as to why parents would think that I had all this time and energy to make up stuff about their kid, and them contact them if it wasn't true). And I did this in a professional way - indicating a plan that I thought would help their child be successful.

My principal, who was very afraid of parents, said his goal was to eliminate parents complaints (read: do whatever you have to do to make this happen) and he once said of a teacher who won some kind of award that the best thing she did was get along with parents. Gee, and I thought the best thing a teacher could do would be to teach the kids.

My final point is that yes, there are bad teachers, but teachers are an easy target for everyone because everyone's had one. And some criticism is fair. However, the right wing extremists hate the government, hate public schools, hate public school teachers and would never say anything supportive of them so IMO they have zero credibility.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[lauragshsu 6]

A disclaimer to start with... I am up late and expounding on a topic that I feel passionate about. The following is a diatribe off the top of my head. You might want to ignore it. Read at your own risk.

4) Teachers need to be able to do the job of educating our children during the hours they have them at school. We had some homework but not tons of homework like my son's boys do now. They are only in the second grade and even last year they had lots of homework every night. And usually the schools are frantically trying to make sure that the kids can pass the tests that are mandated rather than giving the students the knowledge that they need to become well-functioning members of society. The kind of homework that the boys had required parental assistance - there was no way around it. Sometimes the projects that students are expected to do are way, way over their ability and the parents wind up using their creativity to get it done. And of course there are those parents who just go on an ego trip every time they can and they aren't really considering what the child is learning in the process of doing one of these complicated projects.

An idea: maybe for those kids who do not have available parents, we could have volunteers - perhaps senior citizens - give their time to take the place of those missing parents?

It really does take a village or at least it should.

This is one of the biggest issues for me in education. From the first day of school there is a huge push to ready the kids for the test. Readying for the test doesn't allow them they chance to really learn. Most kids have a natural curiosity about the world and a desire to learn. I think the modern way of teaching (lecturing to young kids, drill and kill, reading the chapter and answering the questions at the back) might prepare them for the test, but it kills their desire to learn. I think that if there was less pressure on the test for teachers, they could teach better, teach in a way that engages students. I also believe that teaching this way would better prepare students for not just a test, but for the next grade level and for life outside of the classroom.

As for parents volunteering. I know it's not possible for every parent to come volunteer in the classroom, or even help out by doing something at home. I think for parents to truely impact their child's education, they need to show interest in that educaiton. Helping their child study, reading a book together, helping with a project, even asking what they did that day all show a child that the parent values education.

[BJean 16]

Unfortunately, there are very few ways to make a living that don't require high level skills and education. Years ago a factory worker with no high school education could make a decent living. No more. In order for our children do be able to compete and survive in this world economy a quality education and superior technical skills are needed more than ever. What does that mean? Perhaps more homework, more difficult assignments, less time texting, playing Xbox and watching TV. Also, more involvement by parents and more support for teachers. We can't expect to invest little in our children and our education system and have our nation prosper and be secure.

This debate all started with Patty's assertion that teachers in her state were being greedy by wanting higher pay. Well, everyone would like higher pay in order to be able to maintain a decent standard of living so why attack the teaching profession specifically? I know Patty doesn't really feel that all teachers suck. Maybe some do, like employees of any profession, including CNAs. But most employees want to do a good job. I think the teaching profession is particularly difficult because teachers, in a sense, are helping raise our children a good part of the day. They can make or break a child's chance for a secure productive future. It's a very important role in our society and we should give them all the support they need. We need to invest in our education system because what we sew, so shall we reap.

That's what I was so feebly attempting to say. Good job!

[BJean 16]

This is one of the biggest issues for me in education. From the first day of school there is a huge push to ready the kids for the test. Readying for the test doesn't allow them they chance to really learn. Most kids have a natural curiosity about the world and a desire to learn. I think the modern way of teaching (lecturing to young kids, drill and kill, reading the chapter and answering the questions at the back) might prepare them for the test, but it kills their desire to learn. I think that if there was less pressure on the test for teachers, they could teach better, teach in a way that engages students. I also believe that teaching this way would better prepare students for not just a test, but for the next grade level and for life outside of the classroom.

As for parents volunteering. I know it's not possible for every parent to come volunteer in the classroom, or even help out by doing something at home. I think for parents to truely impact their child's education, they need to show interest in that educaiton. Helping their child study, reading a book together, helping with a project, even asking what they did that day all show a child that the parent values education.

I agree that we do kill the desire to learn in some of our children by just lecturing and expecting them to learn through memorization. Some children, like I was, are very visual and in order to retain things they need to be able to see it and interact with it. Others, like my husband, was the opposite so rote worked for him. So maybe what this tells us is that we need a system whereby we determine how each child responds to different forms of teaching methods. Then we can place them in classes that address their particular needs.

Right now it's a one-size fits all scenario and we're definitely dropping kids through the cracks right and left.