Conservative VS Liberal

[BJean 16]

Honey you're wrong from the get go. God didn't give us the Bible. People did. And for you to be so blinded by faith that you cannot see the truth, it keeps you in a very unhealthy and unspiritual state of being.

That is why you believe that you are right when it is obvious that your beliefs are contrary to the betterment of mankind.

Kind people do not want to live in an "anything goes" world that you hatefully accuse them of. They want to be healthy and happy and help others when ever the opportunity arises. If that means that they need to petition the government to make a legal union between all loving couples - not just hereterosexual ones - in order to make things right, then that's what they are driven to do.

If God made the world, Adam & Eve, all the animals and living creatures that inhabit the earth then he darned well made homosexuals and you are not to question his wisdom. He knows why he made people the way he did and you need to search much deeper to find meaning in all things instead of condeming so many things that you obviously do not understand. God did not write the Bible, men did.

It is a guidebook, not God's literal word. It was written with the same prejudices that you have embraced and that is wrong.

[pattygreen 5]

Honey you're wrong from the get go. God didn't give us the Bible. People did. And for you to be so blinded by faith that you cannot see the truth, it keeps you in a very unhealthy and unspiritual state of being.

That is why you believe that you are right when it is obvious that your beliefs are contrary to the betterment of mankind.

Kind people do not want to live in an "anything goes" world that you hatefully accuse them of. They want to be healthy and happy and help others when ever the opportunity arises. If that means that they need to petition the government to make a legal union between all loving couples - not just hereterosexual ones - in order to make things right, then that's what they are driven to do.

If God made the world, Adam & Eve, all the animals and living creatures that inhabit the earth then he darned well made homosexuals and you are not to question his wisdom. He knows why he made people the way he did and you need to search much deeper to find meaning in all things instead of condeming so many things that you obviously do not understand. God did not write the Bible, men did.

It is a guidebook, not God's literal word. It was written with the same prejudices that you have embraced and that is wrong.

Honey, you ARE wrong. God made all mankind, even those who desire to have sex with the same kind. I do not deny that God made men who are homosexuals. He made ALL mankind. The 'acts' that we perform, whether they be good or bad, are our choices, though. God made men who have sex with men and God made women who have sex with women. It doesn't mean that he approves of what they do.

Now, as for who gave us the bible: All I can say about this is that God says that he gave men the words to write through the power of His Holy Spirit. Whether you choose to believe this is up to you. I choose to believe it. I guess, all I can say is, when you die, you shall find out who was right. If you are right, I have lost nothing, for life is over and I rot in the ground. If I am right, then you will have lost much.

[loserbob 11]

Patty, you've often said Christians aren't against homosexuality just gay marriage. In fact, m

any Christian conservatives and religious leaders are indeed anti-gay, not just against gay marriage.

Christians ARE against homosexuality. I never said they weren't. It is a sin and all Christians should be against anything that is sinful. Christians don't HATE the sinner, they hate the sin. Christians can't stop sin from happening. Sometimes, they are the ones who sin the most, and they can't even stop themselves from sinning. So, while we are against the sin of homosexuality, we can not do anything to keep others from practicing it, but we can do something about the laws in this country that can allow this kind of sin to be instituted as "marriage". This is where Christians can do something.

I do not want to tell others (homosexuals) what they can and can't do. If they want to participate in those acts, then go right ahead. They will answer to God for what they do, just as I will for my wrongs. So, in that sense, I'm not against homosexuality. I would be against any law that makes it okay. I am against any laws that make sin of any kind acceptable in society.

The bible teaches that in the end, people will be confused as to what is right and what is wrong. They will make what's good in God's eyes, bad.... and what's bad in God's eyes, good. I see this happening all around us.

Isnt god forgiving? Again, you make it sound like god is this scary , I dont know, god, that is "going to get you" if you sin! "Youll have to answer to god"! Thats right, you practice witchcraft. Now youll turn this around on me but Im sorry, thats what it sounds like your saying, to me!

[BJean 16]

Fundamentalist christianity, extremist gun-totin' homosexual bashing, no different than witchcraft really.

[loserbob 11]

Honey, you ARE wrong. God made all mankind, even those who desire to have sex with the same kind. I do not deny that God made men who are homosexuals. He made ALL mankind. The 'acts' that we perform, whether they be good or bad, are our choices, though. God made men who have sex with men and God made women who have sex with women. It doesn't mean that he approves of what they do.

Now, as for who gave us the bible: All I can say about this is that God says that he gave men the words to write through the power of His Holy Spirit. Whether you choose to believe this is up to you. I choose to believe it. I guess, all I can say is, when you die, you shall find out who was right. If you are right, I have lost nothing, for life is over and I rot in the ground. If I am right, then you will have lost much.

Heres another example of a born again, bible thumping, nut-job, hypocrit. (IM not saying all bornagains are, just all the ones I know and a few I dont know). This is another former boss of mine, I ran into him the other day and was reminded of his story. Here goes! When I met him for an interview in 2000, he was telling me how his only son was 18 yrs old, his body was found by the allegheny river(in Pittsburgh)cut into pieces. He didnt know how to deal with it so he turned to god(again, wait until a problem to "find god", how hypocritical!) After a few years he started to heal so he and his wife adopted 2 "retarded" children. (I left out the part where he told me he knew who did this to his son and "had the person dealt with".) Again, hypocrite, at this point he had "found god"! Now the real hypocritical part of the story. Years went by(all I wrote about so far happened way before I worked for him, 2000-03). Now about 3 years ago, 2007, he left his wife, who had health problems and is wheelchair bound, for a 26 year old woman, hes about 58. Friends of mine who still work for him tell me he does drugs now! When I saw him the other day, he was wearing Harley clothes, t-shirt, leather vest, earings in both ears. I thought to myself, "what a joke this guy is", just another example of a born again hypocrite!!! I think the hard part for me is, I looked up to and really respected this guy because he was very believable and now I couldnt be more disappointed in him. He always preached about how close his family was and how he'd do anything for them. I dont have a problem with someone not wanting to stay married if the feelings arent there, just the way he went about it was all wrong. Again, Im not saying all born agains are this way but it seems like they have to let you know theyre born again, usually by trying to push theyre beliefs on you and letting you know about "the good deeds" they've done like him, adopting 2 "retarded children"! Maybe I should start a thread about born agains!

[BJean 16]

It's a losing battle. They can't see the forest for the trees.

Remember good old Newt Gingrich, the born again hot shot in Congress? He left his wife who had cancer and married someone younger. They really are such inspirations, aren't they?

[leroyspuds 0]

To Patty re: homosexuals

You said the new covenent means you don't have to adhere to the rules in the old testament, though many fundamentalist Christians use Leviticus as their main weapon against gays. OK, for argument sake, let’s not worry about what the Old Testament says. Let’s just look at the new testament.

None of the four gospels mentions the subject. So as far as we know Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. There’s nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, John, and Jude. Homosexuality isn’t mentioned in ten of the thirteen letters attributed to Paul. It’s only in Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1Timothy 1:8–11 that there may be references to homosexuality. (I’ll explain the “may be” later.)

In any case, the utter scarcity of references to homosexuality in the New Testament suggests that it was not a matter of major concern for Jesus or for early Christians, yet it has been singled out as the one sin that results in American men and women being denied basic civil rights.

1Timothy 1:8–11 – from one of Paul’s letters to Timothy: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 Paul’s letter to the church in Corinth: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:24-27 Paul is exposing the practice of the pagan rites of fertility, common in Rome. Paul’s concern was for the Christian converts still practicing these pagan rites, worshiping idols and so forth. ..And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another

So, what do these words in blue really mean? The reason I said “may be” earlier is because scholars have had difficulty translating the Greek words malakoi andarsenokoitēs which were used by Paul in Timothy and Corinthians. They are believed to be slang words for “soft” and “exploitative.” In later versions of the bible we see them translated as “boy prostitute” and “sodomite.” (Note it’s often misunderstood that Sodomites means homosexuals when in fact their sins were being cruel, selfish people who thought nothing of raping and killing strangers.) So what Timothy and Corinthians were referring to was the sexual exploitation of young male prostitutes. In recent versions of the bible we see the word “homosexual” being substituted. If these references were really about homosexuality in general there were Greek words with that actual meaning that Paul could have used, but didn’t.

It’s interesting that all these references are from Paul. Paul also said, “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

In Mark 10:11 Jesus says, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

If we are to take these things literally does this mean there should be no law that gives people the right to divorce and there should be laws prohibiting women from teaching and supervising men in the workplace?

Fortunately, the United States is not a nation governed by the Bible, though you believe it should be. Our nation is governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights which says we’re all entitled to equal rights. Our laws were created to protect an individual's right to disagree. If the Bible (or someone's view of the Bible) replaces the Constitution as the law of the land, we undermine the great foundation upon which this country was built.

Edited May 30, 2010 by leroyspuds

[Cleo's Mom 257]

On March 25, 1911, 146 employees of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company in New York City--mostly female Jewish immigrants--perished when fire engulfed their factory. Death came in many hideous ways: Some workers were trampled to death in the panic. Others suffocated on the smoke-filled ninth floor. More than 50 chose to jump to their deaths rather than burn once they discovered the emergency doors had been locked by their employer to keep them from leaving work early. Though nearly forgotten today, the Triangle Shirtwaist fire was responsible for many fire safety regulations and labor laws that exist today.

I challenge anyone who supports Rand Paul and his political philosophy of anti-union and anti-government regulations of private businesses to watch this video and say he's right.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[pattygreen 5]

Isnt god forgiving? Again, you make it sound like god is this scary , I dont know, god, that is "going to get you" if you sin! "Youll have to answer to god"! Thats right, you practice witchcraft. Now youll turn this around on me but Im sorry, thats what it sounds like your saying, to me!

Yes, God is forgiving. Why do you think it is so important to make Jesus your Savior before your life ends on this earth? Cause no one can go through this life without sinning.

Just a point here: God forgives those that are His. In other words, if you're not a member of His family before your time is up here, you will not be forgiven for your wrongs in life. You are trusting in your good deeds to save you and they will not be good enough.

BTW, God is not an "I'm gonna get you" God. He is very loving and caring. He doesn't want anyone to perish. He is also just. And he must give us the punishment we deserve for our sins. Those who sin deserve death. Those who accept Jesus' sacrifice for their sins will receive life. Eternal life.

[leroyspuds 0]

Related to Rand Paul philosophy and business regulation:

There are so many examples of this that it should be obvious we need government to regulate business (BP duh.) We wouldn't have child labor laws either or mining safety. Libertarians represent the epidomy of greed and selfishness. Everyone for him/herself regardless of the cost to society. Chris Mathews is supposed to have a show on "the new right." Not sure when it's being broadcast.

Edited June 1, 2010 by leroyspuds

[pattygreen 5]

Heres another example of a born again, bible thumping, nut-job, hypocrit. (IM not saying all bornagains are, just all the ones I know and a few I dont know). This is another former boss of mine, I ran into him the other day and was reminded of his story. Here goes! When I met him for an interview in 2000, he was telling me how his only son was 18 yrs old, his body was found by the allegheny river(in Pittsburgh)cut into pieces. He didnt know how to deal with it so he turned to god(again, wait until a problem to "find god", how hypocritical!) After a few years he started to heal so he and his wife adopted 2 "retarded" children. (I left out the part where he told me he knew who did this to his son and "had the person dealt with".) Again, hypocrite, at this point he had "found god"! Now the real hypocritical part of the story. Years went by(all I wrote about so far happened way before I worked for him, 2000-03). Now about 3 years ago, 2007, he left his wife, who had health problems and is wheelchair bound, for a 26 year old woman, hes about 58. Friends of mine who still work for him tell me he does drugs now! When I saw him the other day, he was wearing Harley clothes, t-shirt, leather vest, earings in both ears. I thought to myself, "what a joke this guy is", just another example of a born again hypocrite!!! I think the hard part for me is, I looked up to and really respected this guy because he was very believable and now I couldnt be more disappointed in him. He always preached about how close his family was and how he'd do anything for them. I dont have a problem with someone not wanting to stay married if the feelings arent there, just the way he went about it was all wrong. Again, Im not saying all born agains are this way but it seems like they have to let you know theyre born again, usually by trying to push theyre beliefs on you and letting you know about "the good deeds" they've done like him, adopting 2 "retarded children"! Maybe I should start a thread about born agains!

ALL Christians are hypocrites. It's not possible for them to not be, cause no one can be good. No one can be righteous, thus our need for Jesus. So, stop worrying about the hypocrites, and YOU do the right thing. If you say that it is wrong to be a Christian cause they never do as they say, I ask you, is the Christian a hypoocrite?, or is he a sinner, saved by God's grace?

Do you think that once you become born again you become perfect? You can't sin? This isn't true.

It is hard for Christians to be good examples for God, because we can't be good. All we can do is try our best and ask God to help us to not sin. Unbelievers should not judge whether Christianity is true by the actions of it's followers. The sinfulness of man does not make God any less real, it only reinforces our need for Him.

[pattygreen 5]

To Patty re: homosexuals

You said the new covenent means you don't have to adhere to the rules in the old testament,

No, I believe I said the ceremonial laws. Some of the laws from the OT, the ceremonial laws, do not need to be followed any longer. Sin is still sin though. Nothing there has changed.

though many fundamentalist Christians use Leviticus as their main weapon against gays. OK, for argument sake, let’s not worry about what the Old Testament says. Let’s just look at the new testament.

The sin of homosexuality mentioned in Leviticus is still sin today. It was not a ceremonial law.

None of the four gospels mentions the subject. Yes, they do. So as far as we know Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. There’s nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, John, and Jude. Homosexuality isn’t mentioned in ten of the thirteen letters attributed to Paul. It’s only in Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1Timothy 1:8–11 that there may be references to homosexuality. (I’ll explain the “may be” later.)

In any case, the utter scarcity of references to homosexuality in the New Testament suggests that it was not a matter of major concern for Jesus or for early Christians, yet it has been singled out as the one sin that results in American men and women being denied basic civil rights.

1Timothy 1:8–11 – from one of Paul’s letters to Timothy: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 Paul’s letter to the church in Corinth: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:24-27 Paul is exposing the practice of the pagan rites of fertility, common in Rome. Paul’s concern was for the Christian converts still practicing these pagan rites, worshiping idols and so forth. ..And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another

So, what do these words in blue really mean? The reason I said “may be” earlier is because scholars have had difficulty translating the Greek words malakoi andarsenokoitēs which were used by Paul in Timothy and Corinthians. They are believed to be slang words for “soft” and “exploitative.” In later versions of the bible we see them translated as “boy prostitute” and “sodomite.” (Note it’s often misunderstood that Sodomites means homosexuals when in fact their sins were being cruel, selfish people who thought nothing of raping and killing strangers.) So what Timothy and Corinthians were referring to was the sexual exploitation of young male prostitutes. In recent versions of the bible we see the word “homosexual” being substituted. If these references were really about homosexuality in general there were Greek words with that actual meaning that Paul could have used, but didn’t.

It’s interesting that all these references are from Paul. Paul also said, “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

In Mark 10:11 Jesus says, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

If we are to take these things literally does this mean there should be no law that gives people the right to divorce Yes, that's what that means. Divorce should be against the law. I'm all for that law.

and there should be laws prohibiting women from teaching and supervising men in the workplace? No, in the church services. I'm all for that also.

Fortunately, the United States is not a nation governed by the Bible, though you believe it should be. Our nation is governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights which says we’re all entitled to equal rights. Our laws were created to protect an individual's right to disagree. If the Bible (or someone's view of the Bible) replaces the Constitution as the law of the land, we undermine the great foundation upon which this country was built.

One day, soon coming, the law of the land will be God's word. "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." So, since this will one day be inevitable, why not bow your knee now?

[leroyspuds 0]

One day, soon coming, the law of the land will be God's word.

Patty, I'll leave you with this: An indisputable fact is that no religion will ever be the law of this land as the founding fathers had the good sense to make that unconstitutional.

[pattygreen 5]

Patty, I'll leave you with this: An indisputable fact is that no religion will ever be the law of this land as the founding fathers had the good sense to make that unconstitutional.

Religion? I didn't say religion. I said God's word will one day be the law of the land. When He returns. And not just this land of America, but the whole earth. Then there will be no more 'constitution' to follow. Just God's word.

[pattygreen 5]

Why are we drilling in 5,000 feet of Water in the first place?

Many reasons, but this one goes unmentioned: Environmental chic has driven us out there. As production from the shallower Gulf of Mexico wells declines, we go deep (1,000-plus feet) and ultra deep (5,000-plus feet) because environmentalists have succeeded in rendering the Pacific and nearly all of the Atlantic Coast off-limits to oil production. (President Obama's tentative, selective opening of some Atlantic and offshore Alaska sites is now dead.) And in the safest of all places, on land, we've had a 30-year ban on drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

So we go deep, ultra deep, to such a technological frontier that no precedent exists for the April 20 blowout in the Gulf of Mexico.

There always will be catastrophic oil spills. You make them as rare as humanly possible, but where would you rather have one: in the Gulf of Mexico, upon which thousands depend for their livelihood, or in the Arctic, where there are practically no people?

All spills damage wildlife. But why have we pushed the drilling from the barren to the populated, from the remote wilderness to a center of fishing, shipping, tourism and recreation? Not that the environmentalists are the only ones to blame. Not by far. But it is odd they've escaped mention. Charles Krauthammer