Conservative VS Liberal

[Cleo's Mom 257]

Paul Krugman, a noble prize winning economist, writes the following (my emphasis):

Paul Krugman: The deficit ploy

All the scary noise about deficits is just that: noise

Saturday, February 06, 2010

These days it's hard to pick up a newspaper or turn on a news program without encountering stern warnings about the federal budget deficit. The deficit threatens economic recovery, we're told; it puts American economic stability at risk; it will undermine our influence in the world.

These claims generally aren't stated as opinions, as views held by some analysts but disputed by others. Instead, they're reported as if they were facts, plain and simple.

Yet they aren't facts. Many economists take a much calmer view of budget deficits than anything you'll see on TV. Nor do investors seem unduly concerned: U.S. government bonds continue to find ready buyers, even at historically low interest rates.

The long-run budget outlook is problematic, but short-term deficits aren't -- and even the long-term outlook is much less frightening than the public is being led to believe.

So why the sudden ubiquity of deficit scare stories?

It isn't being driven by actual news. It has been obvious for at least a year that the U.S. government would face an extended period of large deficits and projections of those deficits haven't changed much since last summer. Yet the drumbeat of dire fiscal warnings has grown vastly louder.

To me -- and I'm not alone in this -- the sudden outbreak of deficit hysteria brings back memories of the groupthink that took hold during the run-up to the Iraq war.

Now, as then, dubious allegations, not backed by hard evidence, are being reported as if they have been established beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, as then, much of the political and media establishments have bought into the notion that we must take drastic action quickly, even though there hasn't been any new information to justify this sudden urgency. Now, as then, those who challenge the prevailing narrative, no matter how strong their case and no matter how solid their background, are being marginalized.

Fear-mongering on the deficit may end up doing as much harm as the fear-mongering on weapons of mass destruction.

Let's talk for a moment about budget reality. Contrary to what you often hear, the large deficit that the federal government is running right now isn't the result of runaway spending growth. Instead, well more than half of the deficit was caused by the ongoing economic crisis, which has led to a plunge in tax receipts, required federal bailouts of financial institutions and been met -- appropriately -- with temporary measures to stimulate growth and support employment.

The point is that running big deficits in the face of the worst economic slump since the 1930s is actually the right thing to do. If anything, deficits should be bigger than they are because the government should be doing more than it is to create jobs.

True, there is a longer-term budget problem. Even a full economic recovery wouldn't balance the budget, and it probably wouldn't even reduce the deficit to a permanently sustainable level. So once the economic crisis is past, the U.S. government will have to increase its revenue and control its costs. And in the long run there's no way to make the budget math work unless something is done about health care costs.

But there's no reason to panic about budget prospects for the next few years, or even for the next decade. Consider, for example, what the latest budget proposal from the Obama administration says about interest payments on federal debt; according to the projections, a decade from now they'll have risen to 3.5 percent of GDP. How scary is that? It's about the same as interest costs under the first President George Bush.

Why, then, all the hysteria? The answer is politics.

The main difference between last summer, when we were mostly (and appropriately) taking deficits in stride, and the current sense of panic is that deficit fear-mongering has become a key part of Republican political strategy, doing double duty: It damages President Barack Obama's image even as it cripples his policy agenda. And if the hypocrisy is breathtaking -- politicians who voted for budget-busting tax cuts posing as apostles of fiscal rectitude, politicians demonizing attempts to rein in Medicare costs one day (death panels!), then denouncing excessive government spending the next -- well, what else is new?

The trouble, however, is that it's apparently hard for many people to tell the difference between cynical posturing and serious economic argument. And that is having tragic consequences.

Thanks to deficit hysteria, Washington has its priorities all wrong: All the talk is about how to shave a few billion dollars off government spending, while there's hardly any willingness to tackle mass unemployment. Policy is headed in the wrong direction -- and millions of Americans will pay the price.

So, you see, all that yapping coming from the right about deficits is just fear-mongering in attempts to win political points, defeat Obama and his agenda and win elections, and not grounded in economic legitimacy.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[BJean 16]

It has been so funny to hear the right wingers rage on about the deficit and how horrible this president is because he's nothing but a socialist.

What, do they think we weren't paying attention when Bush wrecked us with his policies and the war? It's just one more political strategy that is lame and utterly obstructionist in nature. But then this has been the way they operated during the campaign and ever since the election. They don't have a conscience. They don't care if they are being hypocritical. They get caught every day in this same kind hypocritical political posturing. Anybody who is paying attention sees it for what it is.

And likewise, Sara Palin is the gift that just keeps on giving to the Democrats.

Edited February 8, 2010 by BJean

[BJean 16]

And when going back over some of the early posts, I'd like to add that when Bush was the president, Democrats did not refuse to support all of his proposals. They did reach across the aisle and they did give him support when they felt it was in the national interest.

The Republicans have simply refused to work with the Democrats on any level whatsoever. And lately the President has decided to support some of the proposed legislation that the Republicans were in favor of when Bush was president. But guess what? Now since the president has endorsed them, they are AGAINST them. They are a group of truly bad legislators and their lack of civility and respect in congress is utterly astonishing.

I'm pretty old and I've been involved in politics most of my life and these people take the cake for obstructing any kind of forward movement in this country.

You may hate the two-party system and it could be that in the future we will have more than two viable political parties. But right now, that's what we have.

Yes there are liars and creeps on both sides. I sure can't deny that. But right now, the right wingnuts of the Republican party are ruining that party for any moderate Republicans in the U.S. And they sure are proud of it.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

And when going back over some of the early posts, I'd like to add that when Bush was the president, Democrats did not refuse to support all of his proposals. They did reach across the aisle and they did give him support when they felt it was in the national interest.

The Republicans have simply refused to work with the Democrats on any level whatsoever. And lately the President has decided to support some of the proposed legislation that the Republicans were in favor of when Bush was president. But guess what? Now since the president has endorsed them, they are AGAINST them. They are a group of truly bad legislators and their lack of civility and respect in congress is utterly astonishing.

I'm pretty old and I've been involved in politics most of my life and these people take the cake for obstructing any kind of forward movement in this country.

You may hate the two-party system and it could be that in the future we will have more than two viable political parties. But right now, that's what we have.

Yes there are liars and creeps on both sides. I sure can't deny that. But right now, the right wingnuts of the Republican party are ruining that party for any moderate Republicans in the U.S. And they sure are proud of it.

So true, BJean, but apparently being the party of no is working for them. They are looking forward to big gains in the 2010 election. Apparently doing nothing and being obstructionists is popular with people. Like Obama said, if all you want it popularity and care about poll numbers, then don't tackle the tough problems, and just do nothing.

[BJean 16]

That's right! Ted Kennedy was one of the hardest working and most effective senators that we've ever had. His opposition were sure to criticize him at every turn. He even collaborated with Republicans on legislation that we needed and the opposition still said he was a bad person.

If the Republicans continue to do nothing, they don't risk getting criticized for their proposed legislation. If they make up personal stuff about the president, people love it because they want to think someone in a position of power is doing something wrong.

It's true even with movie stars. The rags scream horrible headlines about them and it sure sells papers. You know it does because they pay hundreds of thousands in lost lawsuits when the headlined stories turn out to be false. Yet they continue to do it.

Like the "Swift Boat" ads and letters... people believed the very worst about Senator Kerry even though he was a decorated war hero because some wealthy folks took that smear campaign project on and it paid off for them handsomely - Kerry lost the race to the furthest thing from a war hero!

The Republicans are still reeling from their loss to Obama. Especially since their dirty, nasty politics has paid off so well in the past. Fortunately Obama had his ducks in a row and was able to debunk the lies and get the truth out during the campaign.

Now they're making up stuff about his policy agenda and calling him a "socialist". And then there are the "birthers" and others still making a mockery of the system. Yeah, people who love hearing bad stuff are sucked in by it all, but hopefully most Americans are going to be aware of the truth and will demonstrate it at the polls. I'm pretty much an optomist.

But I have to tell you, I spoke with my doctor Friday about proposed health care changes. She said the system definitely needs changing. She said she doesn't like anything that is on the table right now. I asked her what specifically she disagrees with. Oops! My doctor visit ended with my doctor saying that she loves John Stossel and she doesn't like the way Obama pushes all his policies through in such a sneaky fashion.

And this from a relatively well-educated woman!

Edited February 8, 2010 by BJean

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I agree, BJean. There has always been a group of people who have never accepted Obama as president. They were fractuous. But then in August when the healthcare reform wasn't passed (as it should have been except for that dumba$$ Baucus let it linger) and the reps went home to townhall meetings, this fractuous group found their forum and then the big money people got to organizing them.

Now the group is a hodgepodge of all kind of people whose common denominator is hatred of Obama. They hide behind deficits, spending and other issues, but that's what it's all about.

And the republicans have seized upon this movement and fed off of it, but at the weekend tea party convention, Sarah Palin told them to tone down the rhetoric and they were told not to have all those hateful signs. Because they just look like a lot of angry, hate filled lunatics, which they are. Too late, that ship has already sailed. No putting that toothpaste back in the tube.

[pattygreen 5]

You seem to "need" to accentuate your reasoning for those who oppose your precious Obama's policies. Which is: "we "hate" him". Well, just like you've said so many times before: "Just say it enough, and you'll believe it." Could it possibly be because he is such a liar and a fake and an inexperienced individual with great speaking skills?

He calls it a 'jobs' bill. Why doesn't he just call it what it really is: Another stimulus spending spree! He calls it a 'jobs' bill cause he thinks we are so stupid that we wouldn't be able to see it for what it really is. This infuriates the people when someone insults their intelligence. My state got plenty of stimulus funds. The city of Waterbury, which is the next city over from where I live, is purchasing $64 million dollars worth of fleet city buses with some of the money. There buses are 12 years old, and they could use some new ones they say. Well, buying some buses didn't create ONE job!!!!! And, why should the people in Idaho have to pay for new buses in CT? If a city in CT needs buses, then they should raise the funds and purchase them. The federal government should not be spending "jobs" money on buses. This is just one example of the waste that these stupid bills are promoting. Wouldn't it have been better to have opened a private business of some kind that could employ 10-15 people for the next 64 years at a million dollars a year in salaries for them? The $64 million dollars wasted on some buses for the city of Waterbury where the people don't use bus transportation much. I know. I've seen the buses and the people who ride them. Sometimes there is only one or two people on a bus, if that. Talk about wasteful spending! And if it's happening in my state, you can be sure it's happening in every state. The last stimulus giveaway only brought the unemployment rate up higher.

[pattygreen 5]

The Republicans are still reeling from their loss to Obama. Especially since their dirty, nasty politics has paid off so well in the past. Fortunately Obama had his ducks in a row and was able to debunk the lies and get the truth out during the campaign.

You're the one who is reeling right now because you can forsee the future of your party just as clearly as the rest of us can. Sorry for you, but the far left liberal fanatics and their agenda is NOT what the American people want! And you know it, and you see it, and it is ticking you off because it's true. You can call it "hatred" if it makes you feel better. Personally, I don't care. I'm just glad that these progressives are not going to be able to run with their plans for this great country of ours. I see many dems ousted in November and a new president in 2012! Hooray! Obama has got to be Thee worst president we have ever had in this country. I will be glad to see him go. Did I forget to mention that it's all because I have hatred in my heart for him and want to see him fail? (rolling eyes)

[Cleo's Mom 257]

The Republicans are still reeling from their loss to Obama. Especially since their dirty, nasty politics has paid off so well in the past. Fortunately Obama had his ducks in a row and was able to debunk the lies and get the truth out during the campaign.

You're the one who is reeling right now because you can forsee the future of your party just as clearly as the rest of us can. Sorry for you, but the far left liberal fanatics and their agenda is NOT what the American people want! And you know it, and you see it, and it is ticking you off because it's true. You can call it "hatred" if it makes you feel better. Personally, I don't care. I'm just glad that these progressives are not going to be able to run with their plans for this great country of ours. I see many dems ousted in November and a new president in 2012! Hooray! Obama has got to be Thee worst president we have ever had in this country. I will be glad to see him go. Did I forget to mention that it's all because I have hatred in my heart for him and want to see him fail? (rolling eyes)

Well, the "experienced" (so you say), but stupid and poorly spoken bush ran this country into the ground and it will take us a long time to dig our way out of it. Those of you on the right can try to re-write history but you can't. And historians will remember bush for being one of the worst presidents of our time.

Obama is head and shoulders above any of the republicans currently serving this country in any capacity. He is smart, level-headed, reasonable and keeps his cool.

When he gave a major smack down to the republicans at their GOP retreat that was televized, it showed american who really had a grasp of our problems. Now he has challenged the republicans to discuss, ON TV, their healthcare ideas. I sure want to see that (it will probably involve a tax cut, somehow, as that is their only solution.) I say let's televise all the no votes by the republicans and their filibusters - show america how the party of no helps solves the problems.

The jobs bill is paid back TARP money that will go to banks for loans to small businesses (which they need) and for tax cuts of $6000 for each new employee they hire.(which they also say they need).

Those new buses had to come from somewhere. They didn't hatch out of an egg. The manufacturer of the buses might have hired more workers. So it increased the manufacturer's business. Multiply that by all the stimulus money that is being used across the country.

You still don't understand the concept of tax money that goes to DC and then is distributed via your congressman. That is his/her job. To go to DC and bring money back to his/her district. It's federal money. States and local entities get these dollars, in ADDITION to money they raise. But they can't possibly pay for all the things they need with local taxes only.

I'm just sitting back, though, and having a good laugh at the "leader" of the tea party - Sarah Palin, who talks to her hand. Or rather, reads from her hand. And this from the woman who has made smart mouthed comments about Pres. Obama reading from the telepromter. What a hypocrite!!! But then, what else do they have other than hypocrisy???

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I disproved the panic about the deficits with the above post by Paul Krugman.

Now, the following (from dailykos) shows with charts and graphs the difference between bush and Pres. Obama.

For those who think bush's policies don't matter anymore. Yeah, they do. Every day we're trying to climb out of the hole he put us in. And it's going to take years.

 

Edited February 9, 2010 by Cleo's Mom

[BJean 16]

patty's response to one of my posts: "You can call it "hatred" if it makes you feel better."

I never used that word and would appreciate it if you wouldn't give the impression that I did.

patty: "You're the one who is reeling right now because you can forsee the future of your party just as clearly as the rest of us can."

I don't believe you know what you're talking about. You're so immersed in the kool aid, you're a little out of touch. Your party won a huge victory in Mass. But that may or may not tell us the feelings of the majority of the voters in this country. It definitely sent a message but you could be reading something into the message that just wasn't there.

I haven't made any claims at all about the country supporting an "extreme left wing agenda." I have made claims about the wacko right wing extremists. And those claims are true enough and I'm not bringing anything to light here that people can't see for themselves.

It's interesting that you claim that the majority of Americans support your boys on the hill, but we'll just have to wait and see. Just because you claim that it is so, certainly doesn't make it so and lots of Americans haven't made up their minds yet about the president, his policies, the behavior of congress or how they'll vote in the future.

Where's this crystal ball you're looking at? Oh yeah, Fox news and Glenn Beck and all the gang. They and your Republican newspaper have you convinced that Americans all agee with them. But like it or not, the right wing extremist media hasn't gone so far as to convince everyone that all the Democrats are dirty rotten socialists. But don't take my word for it, just wait and see like the rest of us.

And for the record, I haven't "claimed" anything about people supporting a far left wing agenda.

[BJean 16]

Read the graphs Cleo's posted and weep, Obama opponents.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I thought everyone snowed in, digging themselves out and suffering from cabin fever could use a good laugh:

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Bryan Fotographer at Houston Press brings us the above awesomeness from Sarah Palin's rally for Rick Perry in Houston, along with the following caption:

The "Get a brain, morans" sign guy must have been busy on Sunday.

Way to go, "Homescholers".

[Cleo's Mom 257]

More laughs for the snow weary :thumbup:

GOP Ransom Note

On Sunday, President Obama invited Republicans to a televised, open conversation on health care reform--just the type of conversation they've been demanding for weeks.

How did the GOP respond? With something closer to a ransom note than an RSVP. We've got a copy of the "original" list of the GOP's demands to Obama—check it out. And if you like it, use the buttons below to share with your friends.

Facebook Twitter Email

from moveon.org

[pattygreen 5]

How arrogant of you to decide what God would say about our government deficits. You speak for him now?

Yes. God has given all his children the right to speak for him. We are his ambassadors. The bible says so. It is not arrogant at all to speak God's words. Anyone can know what God would say on a subject by reading his words. If he says that 'debt' is wrong, and to 'owe no man anything', then it is safe to believe that he would want the country to get out of debt before they spend anything more and go further into debt.

I recall that he stayed out of local politics and said to give unto Caesar...

Whether he stayed out of politics or not doesn't matter. He tells us how to differentiate between what is right and what is wrong.

You post bible quotes all the time when they suit you. While you want the government to be involved in certain parts of what the bible says (like homosexuality and abortion) but you don't want the government to be involved in what it says about helping the poor.

LAWS are not in the same catagory as GIVING. Laws need to be made for the safety and social governing of mankind. Giving is required of each person as he or she seems fit. "God loves a cheerful giver." Government can not regulate what each individual desires to 'give' of their own heart. And government should not take what they feel is appropriate from the people and do our giving for us.

When anyone quotes those passages you are quick to point out that it doesn't mean government - oh, no - it means family.

Well, where does it say in the bible that our government should be involved in making laws against gays or abortion? It doesn't - you just decide that for these issues it's time for the government to step in. Then you're okay with government.

You're also okay with the government giving to corporations.

No, I'm not. That's just what you assume.

Corporate welfare. Did you read my lengthy post about corporate welfare? Why don't you rail against THAT? At least with welfare to people you are helping the least among us, but with corporate welfare you are just making the rich richer.

You like to paint liberals out as sinners who just want to be free to continue to be immoral. I am very insulted by that. I am a very moral person. I have already pointed out the many, many republican/conservative leaders who have engaged in immoral behavior, while preaching the opposite. HYPOCRITES!

So what. I've already commented on that. Everyone does wrong.

People have free will and a conscience and will have to live with both regarding their choices in life. You want to legislate what are sins and what is not. That's the job of the religious community, not the government.

Not true. You just think so because abortion and homosexuality are not on your list of sins (wrong doings). Murder, stealing, lying.... these are probably on your list, so they are okay with you to regulate with laws. Well, they are also biblical principles, just ones you agree with. Biblical principles like abortion and homosexuality. We need a guideline (the bible) to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Without it, there will be chaos. If a man feels that lying is okay, then when he gets on the witness stand in court, he can lie and whose to say he can't. If we can't make it a law, then anyone will be able to lie and suffer no consequence for it. It is the same with every issue out there.

Edited February 10, 2010 by pattygreen