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Showing results for 'vegetarian'.
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Gonna Get To Goal. Wanna Join Me?
MegInNOLA replied to coops's topic in Gastric Sleeve Surgery Forums
Yeah, I'm not so interested in the paleo diet any more--it really is too meat-centric to be something I physically COULD do, even were I of a mind to do so, which I am not. :-) So looks like I'm back to being a "nutritarian," which is a term I just love--eating for maximum nutrition, no matter the source. Flexible enough to go with the seasonal changes in produce, and able to get protein from various sources (preferably vegetarian but with occasional dairy)... sort of like what I'm doing now but substituting vegetable proteins when I can. Obviously volume is an issue; it's harder to get a lot of vegetable protein in when you can't physically eat a large volume of food, but there are strategies for that, too (blenders are wonderful things--I can hide a lot of stuff in a smoothe!). -
December 2010 Bandsters out there?
CheckYes replied to GardenGal's topic in POST-Operation Weight Loss Surgery Q&A
Hey Chasing, I'm vegetarian too but eat fish and organic dairy products (and cage free, free range eggs). I prefer to eat vegan too but I'm ok with fish and humane dairy. I love tofu and am working on finding some simple marinade recipes for tofu. I'm also a huge fan on lentils and have a great Lebanese recipe for them (sans rice). I could only find one organic whey protein (Taras Whey) and it didn't agree with me. I did end up finding a soy protein with 25g protein per serving and zero sugars! I just ate my first purée meal... 1/4 cup! -
June RNY buddies?
Little Kansas Kitty replied to Ppdunn22192's topic in Gastric Bypass Surgery Forums
Hi All! Can anyone share their menu of their daily meals/snacks? How many calories is everyone getting? I meet with my nutritionist next week since before surgery and want to be sure I'm ok. I average between 700-800 calories a day right now and probably burn an extra 300-400 calories a day during my jogs/light lifting. I'm averaging at about a 1 lb. loss per week so hoping I can figure out if I need to make any adjustments as I wish I was losing more only being about 8 weeks out... TODAY: Breakfast: Dannon Oikois Triple Zero Vanilla Yogurt Snack: Premier Protein Shake, Calcium Chewy Bite, Fiber Choice Chewy Tablet Lunch: 2 oz. turkey deli meat, 1 oz. string cheese, 1 oz. canned carrots Snack: Premier Protein Shake, Calcium Chewy Bite, Fiber Choice Chewy Tablet Dinner: 1/2 Cup Amy's Organic Vegetarian Chili -
Hello everyone, I am on day 2 of my pre op diet and boy am I hungry! My last meal was a delicious vegetarian lasagne and ice cream. Sunday i started drinking and only consumed a Powerade Zero (gross), a Fruit 2o, and a cup of broth. Today so far another Powerade Zero (still gross), a cup of coffee (dark and no sugar), and a small greek yogurt. My date is 7/21 and my surgeon requires 10 days. I know i can do it but boy do i hate it. I do not want to cheat but im dreaming of anything but liquid!
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I've never been a fan of buffets because I'm vegetarian. When we went to Vegas my friends didn't understand why I didn't want to pay $30 for some heavy buffet when i'd probably just end up eating salad. They've never been worth it for me, especially not now.
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One can of vegetarian retried beans split between 5 1/2 cup bowls with a sprinkle of cheese on top. Just ready to be popped into the microwave for a minute or so for a meal.
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Wrangler, you are moving along quickly. Sometimes I felt like they should just do a full body MRI and check out everything. I feel better though. I haven't ever been checked out this thoroughly and as I am getting older, issues can arise. I think the only thing not done is a mammography. Since my Primary care doc wants me to have one yearly, I will try to get it in before the surgery. Having just have a colonoscopy within the last 6 months, I will feel like I have been checked from head to toe...wait a minute, I HAVE been checked from head to toe...:biggrin1: Dini, you are going to have to give a report on the protein supplements. I did a great deal of internet research last night on the issue of maximum of 25 gm protein. I did find on vegetarian site that stated that. I read numerous research studies and the gist was you need to replace what you lose. Protein is like any other nutrient (carbs, fat) in that if you take in more than you use it will convert to fat. Protein absorption varies based on the type of protein it is (animal, plant) and even the type within each group. Several studies used supplements containing 50+ gm. per serving. Protein is broken down starting in the stomach with most absorption in the duodenum and upper small intestine. This is why protein deficiency is such a potential problem in gastric bypass patients. If you are not real active your protein needs are lower. The more physical activity, the more protein you need. Recommendations ranged from 0.3 gm/kg body weight(RDA), the average was 0.8 gm/kg, with athelete and exercise anywhere from 1-2 gm/kg. So the overall consensus was there is no set amount to take in or not take in at one time and you should work with your nutritionalist, based on your activity level, come up with a daily amount. It was stated it is better to space it out through the day as you use protein throughout the day. I sure hope this was not too much and too detailed information. I am really into research...
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Anyone know of Dr De Bruyne Chris
Cadence121 replied to susanlondon's topic in Weight Loss Surgeons & Hospitals
Ok...so I'm looking into this whole gastric band thing, and I'm completely terrified. I'm 5 ft 5, approx 14 stone. and 30 years of age. I've been overweight since I was 11. I once lost 4.5 stone and maintained for over a year, but gradually it came back. It looks like Dr Chris has some great feedback, so I think if I go ahead, he looks like a solid choice. I have been in touch with himself and Frederick, and I need to fill out the hospital form. I had previously enquired with another company who had Dr Chris mentioned on their website, but when they followed up on my enquiry they said they don't work with him. They also seemed very pushy so I backed right off. If someone could help me with some questions, I'd really, really appreciate it. As much as the pros seem amazing, the down sides are really making me nervous! I'm going to throw out some questions, and I would really appreciate any input from personal experience! 1. I've heard that meats, breads and pastas are very difficult to eat after banding...in which case, what on earth do people survive on? I can't eat fish, it makes me feel ill! Is it mainly vegetarian diets? 2. I'm most definitely, absolutely, positively an emotional eater and I guess a food addict. I quit alcohol a year ago (not good for me at all), and smoking earlier this year. Seeing as I clearly have an addictive personality, I'm very worried that removing the food addiction by force may end up in a brand spanking new addiction rising....anyone found other compulsive areas arising post-band? I know that's very personal, so you obviously don't need to answer on the boards! 3. Is PBing really as terrible as it sounds? How can you avoid it? Do you have time to get out of company before everything comes back up? 4. I had heard of an increase in complications after 5 years -anyone know if this is true? 5. The port - can you feel it? As in, if you touch the skin over where it is, can you feel the port? Or can you feel it moving around in there? Do the fills hurt? 6. Has anyone regretted getting the band fitted? If I go ahead, I'll be using money I was supposed to be saving for a housing deposit....I feel enormous guilt at the thought of that...and I'm scared to tell my family as I think they'll judge me as vain. Any advice at all on the above would be much valued. And feedback on Dr Chris and the team from personal experience would be great! R -
Hello All Well just got off the phone with Kaiser again. Everytime they call I think they are gonna cancel. Just more questions and more forms to fill out. I wanted to know the time for the surgery but still have to wait until friday. I think I will be 6:45 am................for the first surgery of the day but who knows. I know one lady who will be there with me........she is gonna so be stressing that day!! She was stressing at pre op and has a laugh like a hyena!! LOL. Reggie: I went through the same thing as you with the weight not moving for days on end. I had to STOP not just limit the carbs. And overdue it on the Water. Even than it was slow I just can't seem to lose quickly like alot of people on here. I think for me it is not enough protien since I am vegetarian...........but after Africa I am losing 2-3 pounds a day. I know it has to stop again soon.......but next week sugery and restricted diet so maybe not ya know. I didn't like the African food so I didn't eat much..........lost my apetite I think but not a bad thing. Also it was killer hot over there and you sweat all day long.........that plus no cars and only walking everywhere for three weeks my motel was down this huge hill and I had to walk up and down it all day.......talk about forced exercise!! I kept thinking Dr. Baggs and Liz would so love that I am sweating............ Reggie I bet your scheduled 3-4 weeks out from your CM so May or early June maybe!! So excited for you. Christine so glad to her about your progress. Seems true the second day is the worst!! I heard by the four day things are so much better and that is only tomorrow!! Ok I am down to 4 days.............start the pre op stuff on Sunday. Hey all did they say anything about soap or what not to do before surgery?? Liz didn't go into any of that and no soap..............I thought that was part of pre op..................I know no lotions............but what about shampoo/conditioner..............gell.............oh dear no one asked her.........................
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Carbs are NOT my friend. I tried to stay away from them. Nothing white for me, flour, sugar and flour. If I do eat carbs it is whole wheat...........but hmm I don't even do that much. I have not eaten pasta in 7 months. Bread off and on but I ate what I can "fat bread" the kinds that has lots of roughage in in so it is sorta thick and .........oh yes lets me honest dry!! My biggest problem was snacking/sugar and diet coke. Snacking is still hard. Diet Coke. Well it has been 7 months and I don't miss it anymore. Now Vitamine water 10 orange or peach flavor. I drink that stuff instead and LOVE, LOVE, LOVE it!! I am vegetarian so things are a bit more complicated for me since I don't eat animals!! LOL!! I am suppose to try meat this week!! But I could gag and slip my band!! LOL. NO really I am gonna try it so I can tell Robin I did. I made this Egg McMuffin thing tonight. So good. And mostly protien. 1 egg, Morning star farms veggies sausage, reduced fat cheese and Hearty grain ENglish muffin. It was so, so good. I wanted two but only had one!! Tomorrow morning I know what I am gonna have!! This is my new breakfast thing. I am hating eggs but need to eat them again after talking to RObin this way they don't taste so yuck. I could add some salse or pesto to for a condement!! Hmmm.........but it was good plain too!! Ok I gotta clean............:-)
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I asked Dr. Baggs once about the pouch test and he said, "What is that?" LOL. I tried to explain it and his comment is "but why?" LOL. He said that is against the lap band rules but I was telling him it is to test the pouch is not streched.........he laughed!! So I don't know what the medical opinion of the pouch test is!! LOL. THey probably think it is a fad diet or something!! But I tell you it works.........I know AUDSMOM did it and went down fast too. I have never done it more than a day!! :-( Being vegetarian sorta makes it hard. Ok serious I have to get off here and take a break until I get caught up. I may not be on for a few days!! LOL.
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OMG Tina, the dried ones don't taste ANYTHING like the real ones...I don't like the dried edamame either. You should really try them! As a vegetarian, it would give you a great, EASY, high protein and fiber option. I bet you'd like them.
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Kaiser Richmond Pre-op
wantshealth replied to 123008's topic in PRE-Operation Weight Loss Surgery Q&A
CoCo - the pictures are wonderful. You looked so pretty and so happy! So glad Tahoe was fun. I never heard why your sweetie is going to WA for 3 months? Will you get to see each other at all during that time? Reggie - you are amazing. What a beautiful party for CoCo. You are a real sweetheart. What a hostess! Donna, Jess, Candra, Heather and April - you all look wonderful. I'm so glad you could go - I wish I could have too. Tam - hang in. You need to get off the carbs, like I need to cut my portion sizes down! Go back to protein and drink alot of water. Pam - I weigh and measure. I tend to eat the same things over and over, and I keep a food scale on my counter. I know that 2.5 oz of grilled chicken breast is 1/3 c. because I measured it once, so now it is easier for me to just cut off my chicken and throw it on the scale. Unfortunately I am having very little restriction so I can eat more than the 1/2 cup now. I also am not having trouble with much of anything - on Sat. we were doing a lot of errands and it got to be 4pm and we were at Costco so we got a turkey wrap - which of all their things seemed like the healthiest. I was able to eat more than 1/4 of it (and it was big) complete with the lettuce, tomatoe and whole wheat torilla - even though I'm not suppose to have raw veggies or untoasted bread. Even if I eat more than I should, I am trying to make it good food - trying to stay away from the junk (other than the 2 cupcakes last weekend and a few licks of the brownie and cupcake batter and frosting this weekend when I was baking for the concession stand.) Anyway - hope we are still on for Sat. 3/20 for the walk at the Wetlands. I suggest we meet there at 11 am and then we will be back at my house around 12:15 to 12:30 for lunch. Ok so a while back I think I heard that Jes, Candra, Heather, CoCo, Tamra, Riley and maybe Lee were coming. Anyone else? I'll post directions later in the week to the park. Ok so Tam, CoCo and I are on Stage IV and Riley is a vegetarian - any other food restrictions? -
Tina yes, I am back to 100% vegetarian again now (ovo-lacto, although I can't tolerate milk - the lactose OR the whey - but I do love my cheese and eggs!) but I am considering pescatarianism because I find that fish works REALLY well with a lap-band - and it does not seem so much like carcass to me. I could NOT do this program vegan, that is for SURE. So for any vegetarians lurking out there who are considering weight-loss surgery, lap-band is the way to go for sure! You can do this. In the beginning I committed to eating meat for 1 year during my rapid weight loss - although I told Robin it was only gonna be meat in cans - canned tuna & chicken - and she was totally fine with that (I did not know she was vegetarian at the time!). So I started eating meat again in November 08 - talk about irregular, BOY did I have issues around re-introducing meat! - and ate it until I went and met with Robin for my 1st fill, she looks at my logs and I was getting 200% of the protein I needed. She said that the body stores extra protein as fat, same as it stores extra anything, and I could transition back to vegetarianism at any time! So I ended up eating meat for only 6-7 months. There is a bunch of vege stuff that I can't eat - I have a wheat sensitivity so I cannot tolerate seitan at ALL, and even the lightweight meat analogs have wheat in them so I have to limit the amount (veggie brugers, etc). And you necessarily get a LOT more carbs on a vegetarian diet than you do on a regular diet where you can restrict them more, so the weight loss IS slower . . but also healthier! Oh and I could not do it without tofu!! I love good-quality tofu, and the firm stuff works really well with the band, too. I now average about 80 grams of protein a day, more than I need. I do have a concern (which Robin shares) with the high amount of soy protein that I eat, since I am adopted I have no idea if I have a family hisotry of estrogen-related cancers (breast cancer, etc) and people who have that familyhisotry are advised to limit their soy. I have soy (milk, tofu, edamame) everysingle day, so that worries me a bit. BUT I remain convinced that a plant-based diet is much healthier for anyone, and heart disease is more of a threat for most folks than soy. That's my lecture for the day!
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Hey Riley I am in the same place right now............ I am still confused why some people are already at 5-6ccs at the first fill and 3-5.8 at surgery? Your only three and you have had two fills already? I am sorta confused about how they do this.......... Riley how much are you getting filled at each appointment and do you know how much your fill was at surgery? I have never really had great restriction but lately I have none..............my guess is I don't have much of a fill from surgery or I have lost alot of fat in the last five weeks.......... I am not getting stuck at all. Not eathing much because everything feels like it sticks to me right now........... I have heard that chicken can be a big issue for bandsters............maybe you will have to just go back to being a vegetarian again??
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Hi All - sorry I have not posted for a while. I have been keeping up with your posts (y'all have been very busy!). Had a computer issue last week, but it's resolved now. I seem to be moving the scale a little faster now. Instead of 1 1/2 to 2 weeks to drop a pound or two, it's now 4-5 days. Last week I dropped 1 pound, then a day later another one! That's my best week in a long time. I am a slow loser, but a loser just the same, so I am not complaining (well whining a little, but you understand). I had lunch today with my work-friends from pre-retirement days. It was Kellie's birthday and she chose a vegetarian place. hmmm. This presented a Protein challenge. Not a fan of tofu. Oh well - it was just lunch. I had a delightful tomato bisque and a small salad topped with a scoop of egg salad. I couldn't eat it all, but I did eat all the egg salad. This was not difficult, did I say it was small? I tried to get a good amount of protein in for dinner but I wasn't very hungry. It's only one day - it seems so funny to worry about eating too little when I've spent much of my life worrying about eating too much (and eating too much anyway). I wonder if we will ever reach the point where we just eat healthy and don't worry about it. That is a worthwhile goal. I am going back to Korea! DD and her boys did not get to fly home this summer, so I'm going to them. Her hubby is in Washington for several weeks getting certified in his new job, she's still trying to get settled after the move to Seoul - 2 babies to care for. A girl just needs her mom sometimes, and this mom needs to play grandma with those little boys! I'm leaving July 30 and will come home on Sept 1. I am not looking forward to the flights to and from, but it will be much easier on me than it would have been on DD - 12 to 15 hours in a plane with a 27 mo old and a 3 mo old. They need to come home when dad can fly with them... They are hoping to make it home for Christmas. I know that season is harder for DD than any other. She misses being home for Christmas. I am VERY close to onderland. VERY close. and yes, Janet, I know you do not advise this, but I do weigh every day. I've found my weight fluctuates so much, I can't depend on one day a week. I have promised myself I will not allow a gain or status quo to upset me or drive me crazy. It's better than missing that one day that week when my weight is down. Did I say I am VERY close??? I will keep you posted. Listen for shouts of joy from Kansas City area!
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Janet, where's Andrew? Why isn't he walking his dog? Those pitbull type of dogs have lots of energy and need to be able to run. At least you have a nice fenced yard for him. Does he dig up your plants? I had a 2 vicodin night last night. At least I slept...a lot and this morning, besides the hang over, I'm feeling quite a bit better. So much so, I went out in the more than 90 degree sunshine and planted a lantana that has been sitting in it's nursery pot in it's future hole for a month. I also did some more weed removal from my front rock pile. All in all a good morning. I really don't want to get too carried away today because I think my back issues yesterday may have been aggravated by the weed work at my sister's. For some reason, I seem to crave the heat and sunshine...I will wait until it's hot before I go out and do stuff in the yard....when I come inside it feels so good. I think all my muscles stretch better in the heat. I've heard about yoga done at more than 100 degrees to help with the stretching. I remember back when I had grass (a different house), I would wait until noon before I'd go outside and move the grass...it would be so hot, but I seem to like it in small doses. We are going to a friends today for a little BBQ (vegetarian style). These are some of the FNSC people and I haven't seen them in quite a while so I'm looking forward to it. Have a great Memorial day! Thanks to all that serve our country in what ever capacity it is and to those who have given their lives. Eva
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Hey all, can ya give me a hand - I have a banded friend up here, Joy Marie is her name (beautiful isn't it??) she is a doll, was banded 3 months ago and has recently had her 3rd fill. She lost weight right after surgery, but not one bit since. She is very frustrated! She is in a wheelchair so is real limited as to what she can do for excercise . . . she does not have Kaiser so does not have the benefit of all of our education and support. So a couple weeks ago she was telling me what she was eating, and it was a lot of liquids and sliders! uh-oh. Riley to the rescue . . . I told her I would ask you guys for your opinions - what are the best band foods? Fill you & keep you full for at least 3-4 hours. . . . being vegetarian my "best" is probably too weird for her, so what do you guys think? I know it's different for everyone, but thought we could give her some ideas. Peanut butter? Tuna fish? I also told her to come on here and meet us, I hope she did! HI JOY MARIE!!!
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Hey Tina! I went to the pre-opp classes today with Liz & Robin, and I asked specifically about vegetarian eating, getting enough protein when soy protein is so much less dense, etc. Robin says it's harder but it can be done, she says that the plant based protein foods (i.e., soy) slip through the band easier and faster than the animal-based proteins, but you can eat eggs and cheese and cottage cheese and the regular-style boca burgers, but NOT the california burgers cause they are all grain and veggie. Seitan is good, too. She said she met with vegetarians one-on-one and she would meet with me before I went to stage 5 (rest of life diet). I have already agreed to eat chicken and fish for a year but no more . . . anyway, she was not negative about it and neither was Liz. The only thing Ronin didn't answer was if you can eat too much soy (I get over 35 gr soy protein a day) and she just said that's really controversial So nothing came up in my pre-op medical exam with Tom today about the apnea treatment, I guess Dr. Fisher is not as worried about treating it for a long time if you have lap band (cause you are under so much longer for RNY), but Dr. Baggs is my surgeon! I need to ask him but he's gone through the 12th . . . . so I am going to just proceed on to surgery on the 23rd unless someone stops me! I had to lose more than 10%, I stared at 285 and I was 250 when I first saw Dr. Baggs, he set my goal at 255. Whew! A little breathing room. Still, I want to be down 40 lbs before surgery, and it's within reach. :thumbup:There were 2 or 3 folks in my class today that were almost 20 lbs below their goal weight, Liz was VERY happy :-)
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That's great Tamra. I'll look forward to it. Sherri, the most critical thing for you right now is that you don't get dehydrated. I'm concerned because you have pain drinking water which would have me want to stop doing it. I know a lot of people that had to be admitted to the ER to get hydrated. I'm on Protonix 2x a day for anti-acid. When my sleeve was irritated for a couple of months, Dr. Baggs gave me Carafate at my three month visit. That's what is generally given to RNY patients to coat the stomach and reduce chance of irritation. I only took it for about a week. I've recently determined that what causes the irritation for me is eating meat. As someone who's been vegan or vegetarian for most of my adult life, not eating meat is easy for me. We all have to find our own path. Since you're still on full liquids, I would definitely check in with Kaiser tomorrow and ask for help. This doesn't sound like the incision pain that you're already familiar with. Insist on getting help, even if it's in the form of getting fluids at your local Kaiser. Please keep us posted on how you're doing.
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Yes Jes YOU CAN DO THIS, and you WILL, and you will be SO GLAD that you did!! Your feelings right now are 100% normal my friend :-) OMG I cannot stop pee-ing today, I think that was 15 or 16 times . . . but it is paying off, I just weighed and I am 2 lbs. less right now that I was this morning! So it is mostly water . . . I will be down another 1 or 2 in the morning, get me motivated again and THAT will be good :-) Tina, have you tried DOminex brand vegetarian meatballs? YUMMO and no wheat gluten, they are made from eggplant!! 90 cals 2.5 fat 9 carb 5 fiber (so 4 net carb) and 9 protein, NOT BAD for 5-6 meatballs! I got mine at Safeway, I am eating like a box a week!! Going to read, pee and go to bed - goodnight my lovelies!!
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beginning week 2, full liquids, how do I get the needed protein
F_it replied to kipa's topic in LAP-BAND Surgery Forums
Im using these after workouts too, not exactly the best tasting stuff but at such a small amount, i just gulp [edit: (half of)] it and imagine its medicine so that my brain isnt expecting anything pleasant lol and there its done! Does anyone know if these "new whey liquid protein" shots are suitable for vegetarians? I havent found any details on their website about that but dont want to suggest it to vegetarian friends before Im sure. Thanks :-) -
Tamra, my son was a vegetarian for several years after he was born. We ate diary but no meat. If your daughter doesn't get fries and chicken nuggets, she'll be healthier for it. Look at the childhood obesity statistics these days. I'm delighted that my son never followed in my eating food steps and at 36 wears a 29 or 30 inch jeans. I think you're very aware and are doing a really good job trying to keep yourself on a good path. I bet that BF being on the 1200 cal will really help you. He'll get it how difficult this is for you and won't try to tempt you. Big kudos on the exercise you've been doing!! Hey, how does that couch look? Do you love it? :smile:
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Hey Riley I will ask my mom for the lentil loaf recipe. I have lots and lots of vegetarian recipes like Special K loaf.....which sounds awful but is so good. I grew up vegetarian so I actaully like all the soy products and veggie loafs.........crazy I know!! My problem is the same as yours I was reaised with to much carbs and not enough protien so it is hard to learn how to do this now. I am really still learning and Robin does help me out alot...........she had me try tempah which is not bad but looks terrible, tofu (which I am trying to like) and cottage cheese (;-P)..........I don't like eggs either but I can now eat them every morning...if it comes to a chicken or an egg I gotta go with the egg......LOL Riley we are in the same place. I have been eating three meals and snack but I get hungry too. I definetely CANNOT eat anything past 1/4 without extreme pain and PB'ing. I did it again today darn it. It is that one last bite and yep it was already chewed up when I realized it was not gonna fit in my pouch.......in a resterant can't spit it out. I swallow and than sit there in pain for 10 minutes...........I mean berating myself for not learning from the day before!!! OMG this is crazy stuff but I am losing a bit so I am happy with the band just not my measuring abilities. But yep it is almost stuck full, not a full full!! I so get what your say, I totally get it!! Sorta nice to have someone else there with me.............sorry your hurting but at least I know my band didn't slip or something!! I am gonna see how it goes in a few weeks. I might not need a fill............but I will trust Dr. Baggs with that one. As long as I can have my crystal light........
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I love you right back! LOL, we'll get you eatin' our freaky-healthy vegetarian food yet, LOL. I don't think even Tina eats tofu!! Fry it up crispy & salty enough though, OOYAA Pami I'm invited and not going either! I can't afford one party, and I can't afford to go sit at a bar for the other one. Chris has Chris Jr. so he's not coming over and we can't do anything . . . I can deal tho, will walk down to Round Table to see youngest at work, have a couple of beers with middle son, and walk back home! Then talk to Chris on the computer half the night, LOL. My life is BORING . . . . but I like it :-)
