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It's most definitely more complicated than an us and them conversation, because many of us, at some point on our journey, are on either side of that line. I do not know a single vet that hasn't slipped, ever. It's impossible to separate out "good vs. bad" when you're talking about food, something we all ingest daily. I think there's a boundary here and that things that AREN'T enabling are being lumped in because to some people, it's a temptation. That's a personal issue. Someone gleefully posting that they ate a pizza, followed it up with ice cream and then washed it down with a soda - and then getting virtual pats on the back and likes for their post? That's enabling. That's also disgusting, quite frankly. But there's a line. Because confessing that you ate something off and someone replying "It's not that bad, it's not the end of the world." I'm seeing people group THAT in as enabling, when more likely, that's a person trying to be positive and supportive. Because there are still people here (loads of them) that think support is ONLY positive and saying anything even remotely critical is being mean and unhelpful. Hey, guess what? It may bother some people, but I still like food. I still love to bake. I'm sorry if the fact that I cooked something today that wasn't a green smoothie or grilled chicken breast makes someone want to go off the rails on a food orgy. The planning of menus and the preparing of food for my family or entertaining is a large part of my life. And yes, it balances in with my surgery. But I'm expected to keep any and all talk about that to myself, for fear of someone taking a nose dive into the candy bar aisle? That's the part I disagree with. Above all else, this site should be supportive. It should also be respectful. That means respecting that we're all individuals on individual journeys. Hey, let me tell you, some of these threads make me incredibly upset. Nobody should be saying it's okay to break surgeon guidelines or binge eat! I don't care what your friend or nutritionist or doctor told you. It's not okay behavior. But that's MY opinion. Because if someone wants to fail at this? That's not my issue. Oh, it'll make me upset and maybe angry and definitely frustrated with people. I might even rant about people not being educated before a major operation. If you want to eat a damned cheeseburger while you're healing, I'm sorry for you and I'm sorry for your family. Because food is probably going to kill you if you can't get your act together. Again, I like that you started this thread, Laura, but I still feel there is a huge amount of personal responsibility that comes into play. We're all behind computer screens. Nobody is holding anyone else's hand and leading them to the cookie jar. If you cannot get a grasp on YOUR OWN (and this is not directed at anyone specific) disordered eating, wake up! Because NOBODY, NOBODY is going to change your life but YOU. Food is part of life. We cannot avoid it. Birthdays? Cake? Parties? Alcohol? These things are not going away because we opted to have surgery. Expecting nobody to post about how to incorporate these things into their lives (in a healthy way, hopefully!) is unfair. It's akin to expecting your non-sleeved husband to stick to a liquid diet with you because you chose to have surgery, or being angry that he can eat more than 500 calories a day when you can't. The world doesn't revolve around us! I wish there were a way to separate it out. Overwhelmingly, I see people asking advice here about food and taking it from strangers on the internet. Really? Do you REALLY think it's okay to eat cake during healing just because someone, somewhere says that their surgeon said it was okay to have "just a little?" (That's enabling.) And why on earth do you really have to ask?! You know darn well cake isn't okay while you're healing! Post to lament the fact that you're missing out, post to ask what you can do instead, post a positive on what you'll do instead, but for goodness' sake, don't ask us to tell you it's okay when you know it's not. Invariably, there will be ONE person out there saying, "Oh yeah, sure, go ahead!" The addict is looking for that one person. They'll skip the 22 "WTH are you thinking?" posts to go with the 1 that tells them what they want to hear. The person seeking support is looking to be told it'll be okay, so the 22 "WTH" and "It'll be okay" posts are encouraging and keep them on the right track. But you can't guess who's going to read it and what their intent beforehand is, so jumping in and saying those posts aren't okay at all isn't fair to the people that want a more moderate approach. The biggest solution would have people educated prior to surgery, so they're not looking for validation and approval for their poor choices on the internet. I can do moderation (usually...) despite having food addict behaviors. I will never overcome my addiction. I choose moderation, because deprivation makes me angry and resentful. I weigh daily and do not allow myself to fall off the wagon (at least not for long...) and I make the right choices more than 90% of the time. You know what? Three years out and there are stressful and "hungry" days when every single fast food sign I pass pulls on me and tempts me. I know darn well that McDonald's food tastes like crap but those golden arches still make me want their crappy food sometimes. It's up to ME to resist. It boils down to personal responsibility. Posts make me angry. They make me sad. They bother me because people give stupid advice. How I choose to react is entirely up to me. The same goes for food. If we're going to blame food discussions for making us eat, let's lump in television, too. Because late night food commercials? They get me every time. Laura reacted well. She chose to start a safe thread discussing what bothers her. It's some of the talk here that it's all enabling, or the idea that we all have to police one another that I find objectionable. Support, yes. Hard truth when needed, yes. Blunt truth when needed, yes. Policing or shutting down threads I don't agree with? No. ~Cheri

Hey sorry was off here for a few days...I am doing pretty good...yesterday (day 5) was my first day to get 80g protein and 8 cups of fluid. I feel full all day long and feel like I am living to drink (like an alcoholic haha) How are things going for you?? I have one more week of clear liquids but I found a concoction of a new choc protein powder w/30 g and PB2 peanut butter so I get 35g in one cup of protein shake so I can just do crystal light and water the rest of the day with 1/2 cup of jello w/protein. I am exercising now 20 mins a day I hope to do 30 today.

Yes, food and alcohol. Alcohol not a problem in terms of overt drunkeness, but certainly contributed to my weight problems. I am in the process of interviewing some therapists right now. I realize that this was the missing piece of the puzzle during my medically supervised weight loss 3-4 years ago.

Don't worry Cheri, I have always enjoyed your posts over the years and I understand why you haven't been as active lately as I see your bundle of joy in your avatar. But I think you diminish the power addiction has over some people. It isn't as simple as making a choice. It is difficult to explain to someone who may not truly know addiction (speaking to the general audience, not just you, Cheri). It is like trying to explain green to a blind person. If you were to look back to when I first went into rehab ... look back at all the events that led to it, you would wonder how any sane person could do these things to themselves. But that is the key word there ... sane. At first, when I abused alcohol, it was fun. Then it became a job ... then it became my tormentor. I no longer drank for enjoyment, I no longer drank to escape or blackout. I had completely lost the power of choice. I remember many times driving home from work (45 minutes) saying to myself that I was not going to stop at the bar, but then remembering this promise at midnight ... at the bar ... wondering how I even got there. Addiction is a cunning, powerful baffling foe for some. Again, we all know our own experiences and we see through those glasses. Addiction may have more facets than you realize.

Everyone is different post op. I followed my guidelines and didn't have alcohol till after 6 months. At goal, I enjoy a couple of drinks per week on average. Sometimes I have more, like while we were on vacation, and sometimes I have less. Even at 2.5 years post op, I no longer care for margaritas or drinks with a lot of mixer. I drink flavored Martinis, shots, liqueurs, wine, or port. I occasionally have a soda. Probably less than one per month. Lynda

I truly enjoy and value your posts PdxMan, and I have for years. You're right, this is one place we simply don't agree. To my mind, barring a mental issue that requires medication for "normalcy" there isn't a reason people can't change. The alcoholic that quits has the same options as the one that relapses and never succeeds at sobriety. It's a matter of will, a matter of support, and a matter of determination. On that note, though - I do concede that while this thread is helpful for others that aren't engaging in destructive behavior often, that viewing it in light of "support for all" does diminish the value and positive intention of the thread if you consider people might view it as a learning tool. But, oh, part of me still thinks they'd be leading themselves right off the path, anyway to do that! I'm the one that took a year to research surgery after making my decision to have surgery. I don't have a large amount of sympathy for someone who'd do this with no education and then look to a thread specifically about poor choices for support and/or rules! My views on personal accountability stem from my past and due to my experiences I'm likely more rigid than most about this. I come from a family of addicts and abusers of all varieties. I also have a drug addicted stepdaughter. She can quit. She could quit. People around her have quit and stayed sober. She has chosen to cope with drugs, much the way people here cope with food. She hasn't hit a point where being sober means more to her than being high. If she never hits that point, my husband and I may bury another child. It saddens me and sickens me, but I don't blame the people she associates with or their influence. It's her choice every time she uses drugs. It was her choice to be with people where it was possible even if she didn't leave the house with that intent. Is it hard to say no? YES. Is it impossible? NO. People do it. If we start down the slope of saying people aren't responsible for their actions and their choices it's a long and slippery ride to the bottom. I sat in court with the man that murdered my infant daughter while he and his lawyers (as well as his parents and a smattering of acquaintances) tried to convince a judge that shaking her to death wasn't his fault due to his traumatic childhood. That's utter crap. I make a choice every day not to be the person that I was taught to be by my childhood and my experiences. If I eat a brownie, it's because I wanted a brownie. It's because I caved or because I justified that choice or because I opted to ignore the repercussions. And yes, sometimes it's hard. And when it's hard, I sure as hell don't wander over to the "confess all your sins" thread for support! So your point about an AA meeting being a safe place is very valid. There's a big label on this thread that says what it is, and nobody with a monkey on their back should be opening the door and inviting in the trouble. That said, yes, I agree with you about some of the posts. I wish the tone of some of these posts were different. Nobody should be gleeful about sabotaging their success with a massive binge or eating ahead of their surgical guidelines. But again...people will do what they want and were already doing it. This thread is just putting it out in the open, for better or worse. I hope that neither Fiddle or PdxMan are upset on a personal level. We all disagree and we all feel we're right or we wouldn't take the time to post or share our opinions! ~Cheri

First, I plan to get through whatever time period my surgeon has set forward. I know they don't prohibit it completely, but it's at least 6 months and maybe a year. Then I plan to only have one drink in any situation for two reasons. It's been documented that our sleeve stomachs absorb alcohol really quickly and affect us differently after surgery. That alone should give any of us pause. (There are documented cases of people getting DUIs after having one drink.) The second is that as a woman in my 40s, with my friends one of our favorite things to do is kick back and have a couple of cocktails. I'm not saying I'll never have another drink but I do think that this social activity, for me anyway, needs to be completely reframed. Hey, I was just sleeved. But I'm looking at this from the standpoint of years of slippery slope behavior that got me to the point that I wanted/needed to be sleeved. I don't want to throw that away by not being very careful how I proceed.

I am two weeks post op and I am now starting to drink normally. I did have issues the first week +, but now it has pretty much evened out. ( No huge gulps though) I cannot drink alcohol. Not only because of the sleeve ( absorption issues & empty calories) but because I am blood thinners. Never a big drinker, I did enjoy it once in a while. But since earlier this year that has been cut from my life. Pre op I gave up soda because I knew post op they say no carbonation. I thought it would be harder than it really was. I have had one soda since August. Took a sip or two and thought "yuck". Now, if I had to give up ice tea I would be in trouble. (non sweetened) I also do not have a lot of caffeine. It messes with vitamin absorption so no-no. So far none of it has really bothered me nor have I missed it.

I agree with Art. I am 2 weeks out and I have no trouble drinking fluids. I can drink just about the same as pre-surgery. Even after a few days it was pretty easy for me. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. As far as alcohol, I am not planning on consuming alcohol. I was never a big drinker anyway so this might be easier for me than others. I am planning on finding new things that give me comfort and happiness. With my imporved health and new figure, I am sure I can think of a lot of fun things to do that do not including drinking empty calories. Bonnie.

I can drink normally (physically). And have been able to drink normally since the 3rd month. In terms of WHAT I drink, my plan says no alcohol for 6 months and no carbonation ever. At 5 months I am happy with crystal light and the squirt flavorings. I may have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving, but... "all the things that gave me a lil comfort and happiness I wont be able to do" I am working hard to make my family and friends to focus of social times, not food and drink. Unless I plan it, I don't do it. But then I am a junkie.

Drinking contributes to depression so you are making a bad situation much worse. It is called transfer addiction, trading one addiction (food) for another (alcohol) and adding ulcers to the mix. This has to stop! Please, get professional help now before you cause serious injury to your body! Be kind to yourself--you deserve much better than this.

I have 18 years alcohol free. I am gonna have to watch myself close because I know that a lot of people who have gastric bypass will become heavy drinkers. You are one the right path! Congrats on being sober for a year!!!!

Hi, I am eight years post-op. I went looking for this site last year when I was at a pretty low point in my life. I had my surgery, I had lost weight, I was successful in my career and I was wallowing in alcohol abuse. I was at a point where I was pretty much drunk all the time. I want to warn everyone..I know you (or maybe some of you) want to feel "normal". I wanted to not be the lady who had had the surgery, I wanted to be like everyone else. I went to parties, ate what I wanted (after all, I couldn't eat much) and also, drank what I wanted. The weight started to go back on. I told myself that I would lose it tomorrow. Tomorrow never came. I put on half of the weight I had lost before I sobered up enough to realize how self destructive I had been. I called and made an appointment at a new surgery center with a new doctor. My previous doctor had never been supportive, the company had closed and changed hands etc...etc....etc. My new center sent me to a new PA (who is fabulous..by the way!) and she sent me to de-tox. I have been sober for a year and three months...something new to count. I have been losing the weight I had gained-slowly but steadily. I want to tell everyone...alcohol is something to really avoid. You may think you can handle it but, with the surgery, there is no way. I know that there is no one to blame but myself, no one made me take that first drink. Maybe I would have experienced this anyway, I don't know. What I DO know is that...there is no "normal". I will always have to follow the rules and that is the only path to success. My hope is that someone will read this and NOT take that first (or next) drink. You don't need to be numb and you can get help if you have gone down that path. Thank you for giving me the forum to put this out there, Deena

I don't care if it IS the "easy way." As someone who also does the AA program due to a drinking problem, if there was an equivalent of VSG for alcoholism, I'd take that "easy way" in a matter of seconds, too. Probably even faster, because I would LOVE some kind of surgery or something that just magically made my alcohol cravings go away. The easier, the better. There are multiple solutions to obesity, and this is one of those solutions. The way I see it, if there's a different solution that's better for someone else, that's fine too. But this was the best solution for me. And I also wear glasses to drive and for distance viewing. I could also have surgery, or I could wear contacts, but the solution I went with was glasses. So I chose one of the medical solutions to help me see clearly, because I've found sight to be valuable.

I have to be honest- I haven't been as consistent taking my vitamins for the past year or so. This past year I really gave up as far as weight loss and trying to be healthy because I really felt like I was out of options and why bother when nothing was working anyway?… until I started researching the sleeve in February 2013. I truly believe that getting the sleeve will help me immensely. I also think that I need to start taking vitamins again just to get used to taking them since my surgery is in February 2014. I've stopped little things such as drinking soda and alcohol so my next step to prepare myself I decided I would drink a shake for breakfast every morning and start taking my vitamins… I have to purchase both of those and start that this week. Sorry that was the long way around to your question of what vitamin I am taking LOL. And the answer would be… None.

I am 4 years banded. I am down 102 lbs. I started at over 385, lost 20 before surgery and now weigh 283. My goal is somewhere below 240. My BMI now is only obese, not morbid obese. After surgery I went from 365 to 290 then back to 353. This year, I committed to following the rules and lost 70 lbs. My secret, eat real food. I usually start my day with Unjury protein shake with a banana in it and Chocolate Silk soy milk. Lunch is usually what my wife makes. Salads, meat and cheese, sometimes leftovers. We do Water Zumba at the gym. Dinner is meat, vegetables, salad, sometimes potatoes or bread. All made from the outside aisles of the grocery store. Way off the carbs. Way off the sweets. When we eat out (we travel a lot) we ALWAYS split everything. Never order 2 entrees. Little soda, never diet soda. Alcohol is allowed. This is how normal people live. I now feel normal. I spent the last 6 weeks in Hawaii, Atlanta and Florida and most days in swimsuits. This is how normal people live. Really, while I still want to loose 40 or so pounds, I feel normal. It has taken 56 years, but I am Happy!

I'm about 6 1/2 months out. I have had alcohol once and I haven't had a single bowl of cereal since I was sleeved. Nobody can make you drink and eat that stuff except for you. The sleeve doesn't make you change your eating habits--you do that. Remember the part about not drinking when you eat? You can't eat cereal with milk--same thing. You're just diluting the cereal down, it's passing straight through and you get hungry quicker. I strongly suggest meeting with a dietician. Your physician should have provided you with a meal plan. I lost hair between 3 and months. You should be taking a multi-vitamin, vit D, Vit B12 and Calcium at the very least. You should be eating 60+ grams of Protein a day. Stop buying cereal. You will not be able to eat like you used to and keep the weight off. I'm down 77 lbs and I still cheat every now and then. I keep chocolate chips in the freezer so I get a crunchy/sweet snack sometimes. I eat pretzels ( I count out 10) when I want something salty. Stop buying cereal. If it's not there, you won't be able to eat it. Don't even go down the cereal aisle. And lay off the partying for awhile. There are plenty of things you can enjoy without alcohol. My diet plan is basically 3-4 oz of protein 3 times a day. I can have a low-carb veg if I'm still hungry AFTER eating the protein. I stay between 500-800 calories a day. Sometimes I still do a Protein shake at Breakfast. I eat around 20 grams of carbs a day. It's really a mindset, changing your attitude about food and developing self-control. You have to do the work--the sleeve only helps you with portion control. There are days I eat crap too. I think probably everyone does sometimes--protein can be boring. Save the crap for special occasions or just the occasional splurge.

It's not dumping as such as sugar alcohols have this effect in people who haven't had surgery. It's just the effect sugar alcohols can have. ... On anyone :-) I must admit, they never have that effect on me so I guess I'm lucky.

My last beer was a sip of beer at Fenway park the night before surgery. Since then I'm am enjoying a whisky when I imbibe. No carbonation.... Fewer ounces. We all know it is the same calorie count either way. About 100 cals 3500 cals = one pound. The big thing to rebember is alcohol is a dis- inhibitor. We sometimes make poor choices, and decisions after drinking.

I've only experienced dumping syndrome a few times, but I knew exactly what it was. I still do not know what I ate to cause it, but the abdominal pain, and severe diarrhea, was enough for me. My nutritionist said it may have been the sugar alcohols in a sugar free life saver. They will get you every time.

Throwaway: The sleeve is a tool,not a silver bullet You like to drink? Me too. My motto: "One and done" Alcohol is empty calories. Factor it in. 125 cals Per drink. Also it is a dis-inhibitor. You drink----- you do Stupit things..... I'm sure you can recall some examples. Like eating the wrong things. I go out all the time and order Virgin Mary's. Only the bartender and I know I'm not drinking alcohol. You Do not need to cook to get the good Proteins. Protein shakes.--- Pre mixed or powders Canned tuna Canned chicken___ Swanson has tuna & chicken in 3 oz cans-- pop top lids. No can opener- perfect portions. Hard boiled eggs yogurts Cottage cheese Go out and order an omelet I was out to dinner tonite and ordered tuna tartare.--- awesome! Remember why you started this.

I haven't not been back on here for a while, been working too much. I thank you all for your comments an so glad I am not the only stress/ emotional eater! food addiction is harder that alcohol and or drugs (I have done both at some stage in my life, please don't judge) I feel as with both of those you need to give up and not touch again which all though is hard it is sustainable. Food unfortunately you need to live so you cant just not touch it and never eat again. As soon I eat something "naughty" that's it I cant stop. However if I deprive myself I binge as well... Aaargh!

Actually not entirely true... To the weight loss surgery patient slider foods are the bane of good intentions and ignorance often causing dumping syndrome, weight loss plateaus, and eventually weight gain for gastric bypass, gastric band (lap-band), and gastric sleeve bariatric patients. Slider foods, to weight loss surgery patients, are soft simple processed carbohydrates of little or no nutritional value that slide right through the surgical stomach pouch without providing nutrition or satiation. The most innocent of slider foods are saltine crackers, often eaten with warm tea or other beverages, to soothe the stomach in illness or while recovering from surgery. Understanding Slider Foods The most commonly consumed slider foods include pretzels, crackers (saltines, graham, Ritz, etc.) filled cracker Snacks such as Ritz Bits, popcorn, cheese snacks (Cheetos) or cheese crackers, tortilla chips with salsa, potato chips, sugar-free cookies, cakes, and candy. You will notice these slider foods are often salty and cause dry mouth so they must be ingested with liquid to be palatable. This is how they become slider foods. They are also, most often, void of nutritional value. For weight loss surgery patients the process of digestion is different than those who have not undergone gastric surgery. When slider foods are consumed they go into the stomach pouch and exit directly into the jejunum where the simple carbohydrate slurry is quickly absorbed and stored by the body. There is little thermic effect in the digestion of simple carbohydrates like there is in the digestion of Protein so little metabolic energy is expended. In most cases patients in the phase of weight loss who eat slider foods will experience a weight loss plateau and possibly the setback of weight gain. And sadly, they will begin to believe their surgical stomach pouch is not functioning properly because they never feel fullness or restriction like they experience when eating protein. The very nature of the surgical gastric pouch is to cause feelings of tightness or restriction when one has eaten enough food. However, when soft simple carbohydrates are eaten this tightness or restriction does not result and one can continue to eat, unmeasured, copious amounts of non-nutritional food without ever feeling uncomfortable. Many patients turn to slider foods for this very reason. They do not like the discomfort that results when the pouch is full from eating a measured portion of lean animal or dairy protein without liquids. Yet it is this very restriction that is the desired result of the surgery. The discomfort is intended to signal the cessation of eating. Remembering the "Protein First" rule is crucial to weight management with bariatric surgery. Gastric bypass, gastric banding (lap-band) and gastric sleeve patients are instructed to follow a high protein diet to facilitate healing and promote weight loss. Bariatric centers advise what is commonly known among weight loss surgery patients as the "Four Rules" the most important of which is "Protein First." That means of all nutrients (protein, carbohydrates, fat and alcohol) the patient is required to eat protein first. Protein is not always the most comfortable food choice for weight loss surgery patients who feel restriction after eating a very small amount of food. However, for the surgical tool to work correctly a diet rich in protein and low in simple carbohydrate slider foods must be observed. The high protein diet must be followed even after healthy body weight has been achieved in order to maintain a healthy weight and avoid weight regain.

Just a couple of other things I wanted to mention, though for the most part it's already been said. As long as you're over 18 and your parents don't have any kind of medical proxy over you, your counselor can't tell them anything. Don't hesitate to be honest, that's why you're going there! As far as telling your doctors the truth, please, please, please do that too. Remember this: they work for you! Every time you see them, they get paid a ridiculous amount of money (whether you're self pay, have insurance or use assistance doesn't matter, they still get paid), and it's in your doctor's best interest to see you succeed. They can also refer you to a nutritionist who can help you figure out what you can eat that meets your nutritional needs and that is still within your culinary skill level. Don't let embarrassment damage your health. Also, I hope you don't take offense, but you might be helped by some assertiveness training too. I took an assertiveness seminar a few years ago and it made a huge difference in the way I carry myself, and how I live my life. You've got to practice it every day, and might need a refresher from time to time if it doesn't come naturally (it doesn't for me, and I could use a "tune up" at the moment myself), but it might help you reach a point where you're willing to step up instead of sublimating your needs to what you think other people want from you. It's also a good way to help you "lose your inhibitions" without alcohol . As long as you're still breathing, there's not much that can't be fixed if you really want to fix it - you can do this!

I am pretty new here and was only sleeved 6 days ago. I have been obese (I damaged my back and hip and no excersise and bad food choices makes for extra weight) for some time lost weight put it on and more etc etc. when starting the whole process almost a year ago, the surgeon I chose (I'm in Australia) has a wholistic clinic with him, 2 dieticians, 2 psycs, 2 doctors and a support line. It was a little more expensive but once paid you are a life member. I chose this clinic because I do have a problem with food (would not be here if I didn't) I chose a mantra that I use quietly in my head "If I always do what I've always done, I will always get what I've always got". This works for so many scenarios, using it over the year saw me bring other areas of my life into question. I was bullied at work, I was a sucker for every as*^^^**le out there and I did not know (or not strong enough) to say no or ask for help. I now have a new job where I am respected, I have learned to say NO to things/people that are not good for me and overall happier. I have fears sure, fears this WLS won't work for me, fears my son and I will end up on the streets cause I spent every cent on this surgery lol (actually serious). But every day is a new one and yesterday is done and gone. Cooking tips stick to KISS keep it simple stupid (just a saying not personal). As I have no family my sone was home while I was in hospital (don't panic he is just 18). He used YouTube vids on simple cooking for uni students to fend for himself while I was gone and only had takeaway once. I don't believe you are an alcoholic, I think you just need to understand that you can get drunk on a lot less alcohol than you used to, you head is used to the fact that 5-6 drinks got you drunk and now your body only needs one. Bring back to basics that a normal 3 meals a day and 2 Snacks is what it took to fill your normal day but now your reduced tank can only deal with a third of it and so while the ratio has not really changed the amount has. Not sure what you are studying but if it is finance think of it as while the interest rate has changed the principal has not, the principal always has to be paid first (protien always has to be consumed first). Two stroke motor there always has to be petrol as the additive on its own will screw the motor (what ever your interest there is an equation). I do hope you can get some help, you did not take this journey for nothing remember the reason you started. Get off the merry go round (it's boring) ride the roller coast lots of ups and downs and a whole lot more fun. Good luck and good health to all. BTW thanks to all on these threads for being and inspiration, a voice on my shoulder, a reason to re evaluate and some times just a good laugh!