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@butterthebean Believe it or not, I sooo agree with all you write.. I know I'm a newbie FOR SURE! I know it sounds down right righteous to some. It wasn't my intention nor point. My theme was to indeed KNOW yourself and we are all different.. And soo many posts like licking the cheese off the dorito or chewing and spitting.. That sort of thing (ALOT OF IT ON HERE) is what I am referring to! I know I may have issues. When I do, I'll scale back! You are also so right about the food addictions, etc. My psych visit caught all of that (and the recent comments about alcohol and cross addictions). I know for ME, I have no alcohol addiction. Others need to be honest.. Re food addictions, yep, I think all of us have them.. My point wasn't to cave into whims. Junk food indeed got me here.. Or bad choices... I am working on changing that and only time will honestly tell. I don't think I'm enabling anyone, because my point was have the ONE dorito! but, if yuo are the type who can't handle that (only you know that), then don't do it! It works for me.. Same for the 2 pretzels. Etc. So, yes, I do agree with your points and that's why I love this forum!

That's my plan too- to have my first drink at home. I didn't tolerate alcohol too well prior to surgery so I need to see how I handle it at home first

Can we pretend this is an Overeaters Anonymous meeting and it's my turn to stand up front and bare my soul?...especially since I never had the balls to set foot in a live meeting during my 35 years of having a BMI score higher than my IQ. There's donuts in the back...JOKE😁 It's been almost a year since my sleeve surgery and I couldn't be happier with the physical results. I was 60 years old, 5'4" and weighed close to 210 when I finally made an appointment with a bariatric surgeon. I'm now 61 and 134 pounds...I'm still 5'4" though. The past few days I've been in deep thought mode and was just hoping to use this forum to vent and hopefully get some feedback, positive or negative. Dining out: It's going to happen. It was probably part of your life pre-surgery, so it's naive of you to think it won't be a part of your life post-surgery. So maybe it's just me and my family (obese mother) and significant other (F, normal weight), but the minute the menu appears, I get a barrage of "Oh..they have plenty of appetizers and small portions you can order. Be careful, etc. Did you see the vegetable plate?" OK, so I know my significant other and my mom love me and are probably just concerned about my health and eating habits post-op, and if I'm being overly sensitive, just tell me and I'll shut up, but when they say things like that, it's not helping! If anything, something deep in my primordial starving "fat" brain wants to order the biggest thing on the menu and attempt to eat it. When it happened yesterday at lunch, I calmly and nicely asked both of them if they could refrain from offering me ordering advice, as I assured them, thinking about the ordering process and the actual eating of said meal in a healthy manner was the number one priority on my mind pretty much 24/7. They didn't seem to take it too well. Which leads me to my next thought... I might be stereotyping, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of us here were never/are not selfish people. I'm sure there are pages of psychological data written about the personality traits of the chronically obese and the myriad reasons we ended up as we did. My point is, after bariatric surgery, you might have to become a little selfish. You may need to put yourself first, sometimes to the detriment of others. Obviously, it helps if you can do this in a nice manner, but with certain people and situations in your life post-surgery, you might just have to be a selfish a*****e. If your new lifestyle (diet, whatever you want to call it), exercise regimen, food habits, etc don't quite mesh with those around you, too bad. This is your last chance at success and you need to make YOU the priority. I walk a lot now...and it takes a lot of time. Some of that is time I used to spend with other people...now it's not always like that. Some have mentioned it. I don't care. I always invite them to walk with me but I'm not going to not walk because they want to do something else or don't feel like walking. When I think about some of the healthiest people I have known in my life, they were/are quite selfish when it comes to exercise. One of my friends has been to the gym every morning from 5:30-7:30 for 35 years. He never misses. It's not an option. That's amazing to me because despite the genetics of obesity, there's no question that having some type of exercise regimen helps at some level. Did I ever have that level of commitment? Only to stopping at Whataburger several times a week. So as much as I read pre-surgery and even with the psychological profiling the doctor did, I never read much or heard anyone talk about some of the changes I needed to make mentally to make this work. It seems like most of the pre-surgery discussion is about how to eat before and after the surgery and most of the psychological discussion is about not letting one addiction (food) be supplanted by another (drugs, alcohol, etc). The crux of this dissertation, if you're still reading, is that there couldn't be more truth to the phrase bantered around here...."They operated on your stomach, not your brain". Prepare yourself for some mental challenges that being thinner does not make any easier. I must look a lot better because everyone tells me so...but I don't always feel better. Some of the same issues I've dealt with all my life, totally unrelated to weight, are still around. It's not that I expected them to disappear, but I think at some level, deep down, many of us think/thought, "Oh, if only I weren't so fat, I wouldn't have to deal with this problem [insert the problem/issue of your choosing]". Maybe I was just being naive or stupid, or both, but even being "thin" comes with plenty of challenges. I know these are "first world" problems and I'm not trying to sound like a complaining, spoiled brat. I just wanted to let off some steam here in the hopes that I'm not alone. Thanks for listening.

Well, maybe not all of them. And it was more like I bent the rules instead of trashing them and behaving like an unrestrained hedonist. Mrs. LittleBill and I were invited to the 60th birthday party of one of our neighbors. Today was the big event. This neighbor lives in the swanky development that was built on the rest of the farmland from which our little slice of heaven was parceled off. Any of the parties back there are guaranteed to be overflowing with all sorts of food and booze. This one promised to be no different. I knew I had a challenge in front of me, so I planned out my actions ahead of time, keeping in mind the 80/20 rule advocated by the people in my program. We started off with some good stuff. We can see their house from our back porch. It is about 250 yards away. Going straight there is out of the question though, as it involves negotiating some steep hills, and a fencerow with brambles, sticky burr bushes, an old wire fence designed to catch the unaware, and various wild animals that often don't take kindly to being disturbed. So we opted to walk the road, making the trip about 500 yards or so. It is not all that long, but any walking is good walking. I joked with Mrs. LittleBill that we could drink as much as we wanted since we weren't driving. The walk back might be longer, but the cops would not get us. Of course, we do not drink like that. It is too far for one of us to drag the other, and besides, it is not good for our livers. But going in, I knew I needed a plan ahead of time to be successful. As soon as we entered, we were offered drinks. We both opted for the punch bowl, which was some sort of sangria concoction. This had the advantage of being weak, and in this case it was not too sugary, so that was good. I filled my glass about halfway up and proceeded to nurse it very slowly. So Bad Thing No. 1 was drinking alcohol, but I had already tried it with the blessing of my CRNP, and I knew what I could do. I merely write "bad" because it is one of the favorite things for people to wag their fingers about. I reconnoitered the food tables to see what was there that would be relatively safe to eat. They had a big ole pot of meatballs in a very light juice that looked promising. There was also some sort of wraps that looked like mostly carbs, so they were off the list immediately. The ham and cheese sandwiches with the big fluffy rolls were out. Next to those, though, were some very tasty looking crab cakes. The breading looked to be very thin, so they went on the maybe list. In the other room there was a huge bowl of peeled shrimp and a bowl of cocktail sauce next to it. That went on the definite list. After taking some very small sips of my drink, I combined a couple of things into Bad Thing No. 2. I violated the do not eat within 30 minutes rule to sample some of the delicacies mentioned above. I probably went with 10 minutes. The shrimp went down very well with just the smallest taste of cocktail sauce. The meatballs were mostly meat, and the juice was indeed light, with just a hint of sweetness. I let most of that drip off. The crab was excellent, and as I surmised, the breading was very light indeed. I am sure there was some filler, but it was also minimal. Bad Thing No. 3 was a very small - and I mean minuscule - piece of birthday cake. This was the kind of party where there were about 60 people present, and one sheet cake. I simply asked for a teeny tiny piece that was not a corner. Sweet things have been something of a challenge for me since surgery. It is not that I crave them. In fact, I have not craved them at all, and I was a 2-3 pack junkie of Tastykakes every day before I started my program. Since I started this journey back in June, cake has been on the "Do not eat" list. The challenge for me since surgery is the sugar tends to upset my stomach. So I nibbled at my tiny piece very slowly, while talking with a group of neighbors. It is easy to eat slowly when you are telling stories. We spent about four hours there, and I was able to eat stuff that wasn't quite ideal, but not off the reservation. I sipped a bit of booze, and had a tiny bit of sugar. I am sitting here at home now, with no ill effects, and pounding down some Water to get myself back to my regular Spartan practice. It was an enjoyable time, and most satisfying was being able to camouflage myself in a way that no one suspected I had an odd eating pattern or requirement. One neighbor did notice I lost weight, and it was another guy. But he is happily married, so I don't have to worry about him hitting on me or anything. I was actually surprised he noticed. We wave at each other when he drives by, but we only come face to face about once a year. We had not seen each other up close and personal since October of '15. At the end, we made our way home in the near apocalypse snow flurries without incident. We'll see if we actually get the 1-3" they are forecasting.

Maybe splenda is not a sugar alcohol, but it somehow impacts me the same way, so maybe it is just that it is grouped in my head as one. Splenda = sucralose, and sorbital, xylitol, malitol = sugar alcohol. But to me, same difference! Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'm going to try Beneprotein and also try to contact unjury to clarify the statement. I have sent two emails thus far with no reply, so I will try to call on Monday.

Does anyone know of a good Protein powder with no sugar alcohols - i.e., sucralose, splenda, malitol, sorbitol, etc etc? Those make me SUPER sick now so I don't want to mess with them after surgery. I can tolerate equal and aspartame fine. I am wondering if I will just end up using Beneprotein and just have to use more of it, as it is only 6 gms of protein per serving. Has anyone found a better solution? Thanks.

Of course carbohydrates aren't evil. They're one of the fundamental sources of energy available in food. We're just not equipped to withstand the rediculous amount that our culture (with no small help from industry lobbyists) believes we should injest. We're humans, not hummingbirds, and didn't develop eating sugar or cultivated foods: agriculture is only a couple thousand years old. The "gatherer" side of "hunter-gatherer" meant opportunistic berries and herbs, not corn and rice, and even hunter-gatherer was a later invention to replace nomadic scavenger. External carbohydrates are necessary? Even Karo syrup was lobbied as "healthy" for inclusion in every child's meal, and I'm sure some of you remember the Nutella-at-schools debacle of recent memory. Both are wonderfully dense sources of easy-to-metabolize carbohydrates. But perhaps that isn't what you had in mind. So while we're at it, let's distinguish between carbohydrates (the biochemical construct by which life on this planet stores energy, as well as the primary constituent of the cellulose that forms dietary Fiber, both of which are called out on the nutrition information label), and the food products in which we find them (vegetable matter, including among other things grains, starchy roots, and saps/juices), which happen to also contain other things which actually have some value (carrots and carotene, broccoli and broccolene.. err.. Vitamin C). Now most people don't understand Atkins or low-carb in general, which was developed for diabetics, and later refined for overweight patients. Such people often focus on the "zero carb == zero veggies" myth, never realizing that Atkins, and most other low carb diets, encourage (nigh require) a good sized salad each day, so long as non-fiber carbohydrate intake is generally only around 1/5 or less of the total calorie intake. The books are available for people to read, but people almost never bother, trusting instead in the rumor mill. I suggest borrowing copies of the various different diet manuals out there and reading them. I'm late for lunch and distracted, and I'm sure you'll thank me for deleting the brief chemistry lecture I'd started to type :smile2: But, if you understand (at least conceptually) the biochemistry involved, then it becomes fairly straightforward why many WLS patients are in fact told to switch to a low-carb lifestyles regardless of whether it's labelled "Atkins" or "South Beach" or "Zone" or "The Frobnoz Special" or simply "eat all your Protein first, then consider your vegetables" (and note the word "vegetables", not "carbs" was used): priorities. - We require sleep. 8-10 hours, no matter what your grandfather said about "four's plenty for me, so it's plenty for you". - We must consume a large quantity of Water *at minimum* to maintain healthy levels of hydration. This is the first thing, consumption-wise, that could kill us for any number of reasons. - That, in conjuction with the pouch-centric admonition against mixing food and water, limits how much time each day we can spend eating solid food. - We must get protein from food (at least, I know of no other available source). At least about 60-70g of it. We require this to maintain cellular structures among other things. - Pretty much everything else we can (as noted before) get from a non-food source if we have to. It is notable that many of us entered into this with at least some severe vitamin or mineral deficiency despite eating large quantities of varied, supposedly "healthy" foods. - Our ultimate priority: consume the existing fat on our bodies and, when done, don't store new fat. If you want the biochemistry involved, read the literature. It's fairly well documented by this point, and it is those metabolic pathways which low carb diets in particular to target. Now, if you want more "extreme" low-carb diets without the "Atkins" label, you can try variations of Paleo, where the qualification for vegetable matter is indeed what was available to our pre-agriculture era ancestors, that does get more exclusionary than most people have patience for. I have to admit, the food is quite good, if a bit repetitive compared to contemporary cuisine. But bison steak and roasted nuts is a good combination. Now, given that the band, and indeed all weight loss surgeries, give us a lot of seperate targets to meet: - water intake (required for life) - rate of solid food intake (mandated individually by the surgery itself) - protein intake (since this isn't easily supplemented) - nutritional profile (often made up by supplementation) - calorie reduction (otherwise what's the point) .. it seems foolish to pack in raw, non-fiber carbs, which is what starch is, when there are more nutrient- (and fiber-) rich food sources, often with fewer calories. You could do worse, of course -- adding sugar in its myriad forms when sugar supplies nothing but a chance for the body to use that source *immediately* (raising insulin levels sharply, eventually causing the storage of everything else from the food for a later use which never arrives). Don't get me wrong: I'm addicted to mashed potatoes, and have been known to put them on lefse. But I also have spent a couple years on various different types of diets, except for raw food and things in Oprah and the Star. I know how my body reacted, and I *know* my brain didn't need rice to run. It actually did run better after I cut most of that stuff out and stuck to meat and greens, and I didn't gain weight during that time, either. Now, I know that we would *love* to eat like a "normal person", but that presumes "normal people" eat properly. In the United States, "normal" is increasingly overweight. So, given the decades over which this has happenned (let's call it the past 4-5), and noting the rise in conjuction with the "OMG eat all rice no fat!" reaction that started in recent (and increasingly obese) history, and noting the variety of people who actually do respond well when they go contrary to what the anti-low-carb groups state, why again would I trust "normal people" and agriculturalists on this matter? They certainly didn't help me when I *was* at a healthy adult weight and, looking back, eating many fewer carbs, and probably as much protein and more fat and alcohol, than I was going into pre-op. [Note to self: Feline chemistry and human chemistry are at odds in a very particular and potentially fatal way with regard to weight loss. If a cat starts feeding off its fat stores at any significant pace, it will *cause* fatty liver disease. In a human, it would cure it. Don't let a cat get away with not eating for a couple days. There is cruel irony in having to force-feed a cat with more calories than I'm suppose to have to treat the same liver disease.]

Hi Keith. I appreciate all that you have to say. Believe it or not, the best thing that you had to say, that really re-opened my eyes, was the statement about how sumo wrestlers eat !! I laughed at first but realized that if I don't keep that in mind, there isn't any surgery in the world that will help me get and stay where I want to be health-wise. Also, I have to deal with this stress the same way an alcoholic would...day by day, or in my case minute by minute. I am just in a difficult situation now that is common to a lot of people. My parents health has deteriorated and I am the only family who lives in the area. Everyone expects me to do everything for my parents and it is driving me crazy. I have to do what is right for me but sometimes that hurts their feelings. Don't get me wrong. I am not some out of control person. I just gave in last night with that darned rice. It hurt my stomach so much that I got very scared. All is well now on that front today. I just hadn't ever experienced that sort of painful situation before. I like the feeling of good health and intend to keep pursuing it. Thanks again.

I was so terrified of transfer addiction (my sister had gastric bypass about 20yrs ago and then turned to alcohol, she’s now 6yrs sober🙏) and just the mental aspect of the life changing journey! So I got established with a therapist prior to surgery day and I’m so glad I did, I feel it’s really made a difference for me!

Jackie, I can so relate. I love to bake and cook and, particularly at this time of year, I get the urge to bake. Even one year post band, though, and I know it would be a huge mistake. I'd start off with good intentions, but it would be a cookie here, a cookie there and 10 extra pounds after Christmas. I did make pies and a fruitcake for Thanksgiving, but took it to my mother-in-law's for dinner and left it all there afterwards. They weren't the kind of things you could take a bite or piece out of, so they were safe. Cookies, though...uh uh. Good for you for knowing your limitations and don't let anyone guilt you into baking if you know it will be your downfall. I mean, realistically, if you were an alcoholic, would you let your family guilt you into stocking up on alcohol for the holiday season? It's the same thing...really. .

My body reacts much differently to alcohol post-op. I get a quick buzz but it goes away very fast. I've never been hung over since I had surgery.

Your body goes immediately to burning the alcohol and not fat. So the whole time you have it in your system your body is thinking of nothing else.

You hit it right on the head for me. Food, is my addiction. Whether it be phsyical/emotional or both.. addicted I am and it's a huge issue we still have to face after being banded. My husband, though he only weighs 165 soaking wet, can relate because he is an alcoholic(recovering, hasn't had a drink in 5 yrs) and said basically the only difference that he can see is that I still have to eat to survive but be able to eat and moderate it, and he doesn't have to drink to survive. We don't keep alcohol in the house or go to parties that will serve it.. it's kind of hard to avoid food. good luck, Tracy

Maybe a little off topic but I am very aware that my drinking has increased since I've been banded...and I know why. I wasn't able to drink wine when I was heavy because it gave me awful heartburn. Now that my hernia has been repaired and I've lost 150+ pounds, I can drink white or red with no issues. I also know that folks can replace one addiction with another and while I don't have an alcohol problem, I am aware that it's a possibility so I make sure to keep my wine consumption to no more than two glasses while out to dinner and only an occasional glass at home.

Chantal, you have all our sympathy and support. You have gotten some great advice and everyone's stories are so moving. You're in a very difficult situation indeed, but as others have said there is NOTHING to be gained if your children are the only reason you are sticking this out. I'm a product of a divorce and I can tell you my life IMPROVED immeasurably once my dad moved out. Neither parent was at all abusive or anything, but the tension between them was so thick that when they finally did the deed my only response was "what took you so long?" I was 8 years old. It didn't fix all our family problems, but it fixed THE BIG ONE and let those of us who weren't addicted to alcohol (i.e., everyone except my mother) move on and heal. My father found new love and became a healthier, happier person which made me happier too. If simply being in the same room causes tension between the parents, no one in the family can ever be comfortable. And don't kid yourself, children know this. What can you give them as part of this couple that you can't give them alone? Pain? Tension? Grief? Worry? These are not things you want them to have, right? And being a single mom is hard, absolutely. But you know it can be done. Your friends and family will flock around you and surprise you with talk of how glad they are that you have freed yourself from this ugly situation. And you will be yourself surprised at how wonderful it is to not worry all the time about what the next fight will be about, and how to keep your husband from dropping some really important family ball. Hell, you already run everything yourself, so you'd just have fewer people to take care of if he were gone! And a lot less laundry, I'll bet. An added bonus would be that if you left him you'd also be leaving his mother. My story isn't as dramatic as some others, and my first marriage was blessedly short. But the man I married sounds a lot like your husband. He never got violent with me but I could see it was coming someday. Once he threw a fistful of hamburger meat in my direction (don't ask me why, I have no recollection), and it hit the wall near me with really shocking force! I knew he had missed intentionally but I was amazed at how hard he had thrown it. That was the first time I realized I might be in danger someday. We never talked and for the last 8 months of our marriage I hardly saw him at all. I kept thinking that this would pass, that in 10 years we'd laugh about the hard times, but after a while it dawned on me that he was doing it on purpose. As a Catholic he'd never suggest divorce, but being married to me didn't mean he actually had to SPEAK to me, right? I finally walked out, convinced I'd be single forever. Six months later Mr. Right walked into my life and I've never looked back. Of course, I didn't have children then so it was an easier decision to make with fewer logistical problems, but when it needs to be done there is always a way. My thoughts are with you, Chantal, please don't hesitate to get in touch if you need anything.

"I'm only going to protest and march for sh** that affects me," she said. "You know, if they say, 'Hey, we're going to ban the sale of alcohol after 9 p.m."

You raise an interesting set of questions in this post, ones that would merit a lengthy thread of their own. How far should the state go? Should the state become a "nanny state" by enacting laws for our protection? There was the time of Prohibition when alcohol was banned because it was deemed bad for us. Now we see laws which infringe upon the rights of smokers. Should there be anti-obesity laws as well, and if so, what kind? Should fast food restaurants be banned. Should we have the right to sue them? Should the obese individual be required to pay for his or her own health costs? For that matter there is the tricky matter of medical technology outstripping itself. Let me explain. Though it is now possible to save extremely premature infants, the chances are high that these poor kids will have ongoing developmental problems; they are more likely to have medical problems throughout their lives. This means that from their birth on they will be a greater charge on the health system, whether it is private or not. How do you feel about your insurance premiums going up when it concerns the care of one of these infants? Or should the state adopt a hands-off approach? Where does one person's right end and the next person's right begin? I think that this is an interesting question.

Hi All...well its 9 days post op...Was a little ruff in the beginning with the gas pain and such..However, now I'm at the mushys. I actually get to have eggs OR an egg today (1/2 of egg?) At least thats what my nutrionist advised. Starting to feel hungry as the swelling has gone down. I still have some port pain... it was actually more of an ache yesterday. Finally driving myself around which is a little uncomfortable with the seat belt and having to turn the body to look certain ways. But all in all, not too bad. Getting ready to start my walking around the block, I still get tired easily but I think its because I'm having issues with the protien drinks. Has anyone else noticed that all we can drink or eat for the first two weeks is really sweet!? ugg... Jello, ice pops, pudding, Isopure, now shakes. For someone who doesn't like too much sweetness sure has to have a lot of it. Anywho...getting concerned that now that my tummy growls I might revert to the old food machine..(HAHAHAA) But since I'm afraid to eat for fear of throwing up I think I might be alright. How about your sense of smell????? Doesn't EVERYTHING smell good? Sheesh drives me insane. Also, to everyone, make sure you check your scale batteries if you have one like that. I was jumping for joy the other day, said I was down 11 lbs since surgery turned out my battery was going...replaced it and to my immense disappointment I was only down 7 lbs, but hey thats a pound a day. Also, one last note, I had my first alcoholic drink (with my docs approval) said be very careful, ya know, one addiction for another, and you can get trashed quick cuz your not eating. So I bought Mango slushy mix added ice and a little vodka and bam! I was good. Only had 2 in like 4 hours (very filling) but I made sure I ate my jello, shake and Soup prior to having one. Be responsible. Good luck and I'll check in again with another update in a few days. :thumbup:

I don’t have forbidden foods but I don’t enjoy drinking alcohol anymore. Probably just as well.

For me it's pizza--one of my absolute favorites before surgery but not really an option since. I have had a few bites here and there, but never again will I eat even a full slice. As Catwoman said, you can have a little bit of just about anything from time to time once you are in maintenance, as long as you exercise restraint. I swore I would never eat processed sugar nor drink alcohol again after surgery, but I've done both on a couple of occasions over the last few months, with no ill effects.

drinks IN MODERATION is a good way to look at the alcohol issue and being banded. Actually drinks in moderation with alcohol and not being banded should be the way it is dealt with in all aspects.

I wish alcohol were a problem... goes down way too easy for me!

Since alcohol is a dehydrator, it is feasible that one might sense less restriction. Of course, after enough alcohol, one might sense less of a lot of stuff...

well never mind all that - I just googled them, and they don't contain sugar alcohols. Not sure what it was you were reacting to...

About 2 years ago, there was a small group of people who were all getting banded the same month...they decided to break away and start their own private facebook group....they wanted to be of a single mind with a single goal, and felt this forum was too confusing with people in all different stages of this journey...not to mention the negativity...the group grew to around 100 people..ALL being banded within the same month or so....ALL moving forward at the same pace. As a group, they decided early on they needed a few Veterans in the group to give advice and hints based upon experience....so they hand picked 2 or 3 from this forum...I was one of those invited.... The group was very productive and very tight knit, planning reunions here and there......it was fun to see and watch them, as a group, enter and pass through the different stages...such as their first fill...or bandster hell...or their first stuck episode.... I remember once they were all talking about how they loved Sushi,,,,I mentioned something which none of them understood...but sure enough 6 months later I was asking...."What...no one eats Sushi anymore? What happened?" The group was so good, everyone started to invite others to join with good intentions...and it grew and grew in numbers....it slowly became a microcosm of this forum, with people at all different stages...some just starting out, some just considering the surgery...and yes, negativity and some friction between members started, with some quitting having their "Feelings" hurt, or insulted........it slowly became confusing, not knowing where someone was in their journey, making it difficult to give advice...again, there are some things beginners will not, and cannot understand yet....so I no longer knew what to say to who, and started to keep my mouth shut when a topic came up such as "Alcohol" and the band....for some people it is better not to hear what I think....even if it is from experience... Long story short though....NONE of those people ever came back to this forum...they ALL left...I do see one, maybe 2 now and then, but that's about it....the "Core" of that original group are all happy, met their goals, and many of them moved on from that group....and of course, statistically, a few never found that compatibility with this, and had their constant struggles. It's just the way it is...you can't be responsible for what others think or feel, whether they have interest in staying or leaving...it just happens...it's natural...it's happened before, it's happening now, and will happen in the future....it will always be that way. It happens....it's a big world and this IS the internet after all....