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1. How long did you go before having your first drink? Three weeks- I had a few sips of champagne at a dinner to be polite. After that, probably about 8 months until I had a tequila night. 2. Have you had any MEDICAL complications with your surgery that were attributed to drinking alcohol? Nope 3. Have you gained back significant weight from drinking alcohol? Nope 4. Have you developed an alcohol addiction post VSG after having been able to control your drinking before? Nope..I developed a shopping addiction, lol.

1. How long did you go before having your first drink? 3 weeks - a small glass of wine for my friend's birthday. 2. Have you had any MEDICAL complications with your surgery that were attributed to drinking alcohol? None at all. 3. Have you gained back significant weight from drinking alcohol? No, still losing. 4. Have you developed an alcohol addiction post VSG after having been able to control your drinking before? No. It certainly effects me differently. I feel like I get the buzz from the first sip, but I don't get tipsy, just that lightly buzzed feeling then I feel like I have to stop.

My surgeon has the same advice. I was was an avid wine/beer drinker pre- surgery (especially around the holidays). I am only 4 weks out, so no alcohol yet, but man do I look forward to a glass of wine someday lol I have family members with a sleeve and RNY and they both drink post-op. Aside from not drinking as much to getting drunk much faster they have had no other "complications"

1- I waited about 6 - 8 weeks 2- I have had no medical issues at all. And alcohol do not effect my surgery. 3- I have not gained any weight attributed to alcohol, I'm down 75 lbs. And still loosing!! 4- I'm not an alcoholic! And have not developed alcoholism.. lol I'm not addicted. I enjoy spirits. And I drink coffee too!

I just want to share my personal AL knowledge and experiences. Please, hear all of my message. I had my VSG on 11/30/15. My surgeon specifically made me promise never to drink again. Well, except champagne toast at my upcoming wedding. Both of my parents and my younger sister had the gastric bypass almost 15 years ago. My dad rarely drank before, but is now an alcoholic (struggling with recovery). My sister first had prescription pain medication addiction. Once she got that addiction under control, she began drinking. She is currently in an alcohol recovery program. Of course everyone is different. Not everyone that drinks becomes an alcoholic, but statistics DO show an increased risk post weight loss surgeries. I guess I just don't understand choosing such a drastic procedure to improve quality of life, then knowingly possibly choosing a life of addiction.

Thanks for all your responses (both here and via PM). Although I'm months away from venturing into social drinking waters, I'm thinking about how I'll proceed when that day comes. I have been enjoying (greatly) a spicy Virgin Mary around "Cocktail Hour" and I'm thinking that when I'm ready to give alcohol a test drive, I'll start by adding a little vodka and seeing how it goes (I'm thinking a half shot or so). Any bloody mary drinkers out there try this this approach?

How long did you abstain pre-opt? I quit 6 weeks before surgery and I'm glad I did. Not only did it help me lose 30 lbs per-opt and accelerate obtaining my goal, but each week I abstained, the easier it got. By the time on went on a liquid diet, alcohol was the least of my fond memories.

I am 5 1/2 years out and the only down side for me was that i have to take omeprazole every day to prevent ulcers. I was hoping that my sleep apnea would go away after loosing all the weight, but I still have it. Also, I was pre diabeticc and had to use a CPAP nightly. My surgeon did a little something that most surgeons don't do. He put in a pig valve in between the new stomach and the intestines to help prevent the opening from stretching over time. that is why a lot of people regain their weight. i have not and have no problem maintaining. food is no longer a big concern for me. you do have to stop drinking alcohol and drinking carbonated beverages. i can't eat real spicy hot foods but I never cared for them anyway. I have lots of energy and look and feel better than I ever have. Also, my bloodwork is perfect. Before I had had high cholesterol and was pre diabetic. I was taking all kinds of meds and supliments to no avail. Not anymore . It was the best thing that I could have done for myself and I am sure that I added at least 10 years to my life. I struggled all my life with weight issues and wish I had been able to have this done about 40 years ago.

Any one have some good suggestions for a non-alcoholic cocktail? I’m going on cruise in September with girl friends. I’d like to feel that I’m part of the party at the bar but don’t want to have alcohol.

Happy Thanksgiving!!! Kat - on your 30 year old "kid" - next year - just ask her what she is bringing - pointedly. She will get the message. It's past time for her to step up.... :] Oh - and we don't cater too much to picky eaters at my house. If you don't like it - don't eat it. Amazingly enough - folks always seem to find something they can tolerate. :] Oh - and the poundage in the signature is the "Official" weight as of my last doctor's visit. I will change that when I go to see him again next month. Jules - glad to hear I am not the only one who doesn't know about Chess Pie. Hope you are having a great day! Mandy - non-alcoholic wine is about the same thing as decaffinated coffee. I guess they can suck the alcohol out of anything.... I will have to try the pork thing. We are big into pork at my house. Chrispy - Calzones? I want some! What a great non-traditional feast food. Do you put meat in them? Do tell. It's all about food porn today, anyway, isn't it? I mean Geez. We have already read about Caremel Pecan pie... how much more hungry can I get? :] Eileenie - cute card! Have fun cooking. Just in case I somehow don't get back here before Friday - HUGE hugs and much love to all of you - I will be thinking of you as I take my two bites of stuffing every 15 minutes. Hugs & Love Irene

I do not but I am only 8.5 months post op. I do not drink alcohol and have not for years so that’s not an issue for me. If I eat out I order an ice water, sip it a bit before my meal comes, then I leave it there when my meal arrives. If anyone has noticed they haven’t said anything. I am sure plenty of people enjoy a glass of wine with their meal now and again.

My doctor allows wine - a small glass, occasionally. Personally, I don't want to drink my calories, but I've had a couple of glasses since having surgery on a couple of special occasions. I've read where some doctors have said no to alcohol for six months, others a year. This is one of those band variables. Now if someone was a heavy drinker, that's a whole other question, and I understand you aren't asking about that. I'm sure a lot of alcohol, in any form, would be harmful to our stomachs, especially after banding.

Just curious, i know what the Dr.'s tell you about alcohol consumption and I know about not drinking beer because it's carbonated. What about Wine? My friends mom is a year out and can drink wine like crazy... in fact she drinks wine almost every night with dinner. Anyone else have any input on whether or not you consume wine post op? I'm not talking weeks out or anything, but after a couple months or even a bit longer, have you given wine a shot?

Jul, I am so sorry for your story. It brought tears to my eyes about your brother! It sounds a lot like my situation. I have an older brother (11 years, by her first husband) and he was heavily into drugs and alcohol. I'm sure he still lights up every now and then, but he has managed to turn his life around. He left VA when he was 20 and she didn't follow him! I move to TX - where she says she'll NEVER live, and she followed me! I'm sure she would again, if I moved away. I can say that *most of the time* my mom isn't really mean for the sake of being mean. She used to be, but she's calmed down a lot. I think she just wants to be taken care of, but doesn't really know how to interact with people. Although, she has told me before that she should never have had me. She was older and she and my dad got along great until I was born. Then, he still wanted to go out and she had to stay home. I think she feels she sacrificed for me, now it's my turn to reciprocate. I don't feel that way - now, but I did for a long time. The other day she was stressed over my aunt's visit and she got so mad at one of my dogs she through something at her. I gathered up our stuff and left and my DD said, "I can't believe she threw something." I said, "oh, I believe it!" When I was a kid, she'd grab anything that was near her and throw at me. Shoes, books, a plant once! She had a temper! Now she's just kinda pathetic. Since I told her being bitchy to me wasn't acceptable, she's been much better. I think I just need to keep her behavior on a short leash and stay in control. When I start trying to be the daughter and put her in control is when things go to hell. She's not a fit parent - never was and never will be. Good luck with you staying strong. Do you feel you'll call them again, or are you done forever? If they contacted you, what would you do?

Good luck Glou..., I wasn't strong enough to break up with my alcoholic toxic father until he died and now there is peace! Take care Nancy.

Hello to my fellow Adult Children of Alcoholics.... First I just want to say that it's really difficult to speak or write about how my parents' alcohol dependency is impacting my life. I've started to write this thread so many times and quit because the denial and defeatism is such a strong part of me. So strong, in fact, that it took me 10 minutes sitting here just to type "my parents' alcohol dependency"! I wanted to start a discussion on how our eating habits were (and still are) influenced by the drug/alcohol dependent in our lives. For me, food was the singular comfort in a life where I only saw my parents sober for a precious couple of hours a day--after they got home from work. For the past year I've had to live with them again. My dad was in recovery after almost dying in detox a couple of years ago but he has recently starting drinking again (I started finding the hidden vodka and wine stowed away in closets and the garage). My mom has never stopped. It's so difficult to watch them wasting away. Anyhow, my lapband journey has been slow, and I've been mentally avoiding how living in this house has made the journey harder. God willing, I will be able to move out in the next month or so. You know what the worst thought is? They love me more than anything. They paid for this surgery and supported me. But all the money and love in the world won't make them sober. Sorry I don't have a clear question for the thread. I just wanted to send this out unto the internet void and listen for others.

I know this may be a little soon to think about, but I have to ask. I know that once able, that alcohol effects you a lot quicker and with a much smaller amount than previous to being banded. However, how soon did you start to attempt even a sip of alcohol? If so, what kind? I know people who have had the lap and the gastric. Some of them are back to drinking beer (I already miss this!) like they were prior to surgery, and some still play it safe with wine and clear liqours. Please dont assume that I am an alcoholic, but I am curious because I have 3 weddings to attend within the coming months, including bachelorette parties and I was curious where I stand. I dont want to try anything too soon, but I dont want to be too conservative either.

Personal anecdote, not saying you're heading for the same path: I lost weight on my own once in the past, about 70lbs (I've gained it all back and more and now almost approved for surgery). I was married and my husband didn't like me losing weight. He often accused me of looking for other men. This was not about *me*, I was not being secretive, flirting with men or whatever he thought. His problems were about HIM - self consciousness, feeling of inadequacy, alcoholism, thinking I would leave him if I finally got the self confidence and decided that he was not right for me. He refused couples counseling and I finally did leave, not because I wanted someone else - but because I wanted to be treated with the respect that should be given in any relationship, but he was a toxic person. If you cannot get your partner to participate in counseling - go on your own. You can learn a lot about boundaries, respect, why you accept or participate in unhealthy behaviors, etc.

Sounds like when he's telling you how sexy and fabulous you are, that feels really amazing and maybe, just maybe its been awhile since you've had someone do that? I don't know... I don't know you, but when we have such conflicted emotions it's generally not really about what's going on right in front of us. It's about something deeper. You, for instance can plainly tell us that he's boring, narcissistic, an alcoholic, and he's injured you twice now to the point that you've decided to reach out here on this site. I'm so glad you did... But even though you have the evidence right in front of your eyes, you feel conflicted... That's the "deeper" part... and that part isn't about him. It's about you. Are you worried you won't find anyone else who will tell you how sexy and fabulous you are? Is it that you feel like you've really put your heart and soul into this guy for 5 long months now so don't want to give up? Where did that lesson come from, that you should stay despite it not being positive? See where I'm going... look into yourself. He has shown you who he is. When people show you who they are, believe them. Now, go find who you are. I'm pretty sure you're going to like who you find. And.. there will be a gazillion other guys out there who will tell you so too.

May I also tactfully suggest you don't sleep with a man until, and unless, he has shown you his true nature and really committed to you. That might mean waiting until remarriage (my preference) or at least waiting until things are much more committed. Why would you give an intimate part of yourself to someone that you didn't want around your children? I may be old-fashioned now, but looking back to my teen/20's years I was desperate for someone to love me (child of an alcoholic father and distant mom) and gave myself away (body and soul) to several undeserving men (boys!), including my soon-to-be-ex husband. My 14 yo dd came home from school the other day with a link to a TED talk about relationships they were supposed to watch for health class. I think it's an excellent talk and recommend it for anyone in the dating games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jodhovumkHQ I finally watched this video. What great advise. I wish I could have heard this 30 plus years ago (and payed attention). It could have saved many years of heartache.

May I also tactfully suggest you don't sleep with a man until, and unless, he has shown you his true nature and really committed to you. That might mean waiting until remarriage (my preference) or at least waiting until things are much more committed. Why would you give an intimate part of yourself to someone that you didn't want around your children? I may be old-fashioned now, but looking back to my teen/20's years I was desperate for someone to love me (child of an alcoholic father and distant mom) and gave myself away (body and soul) to several undeserving men (boys!), including my soon-to-be-ex husband. My 14 yo dd came home from school the other day with a link to a TED talk about relationships they were supposed to watch for health class. I think it's an excellent talk and recommend it for anyone in the dating games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jodhovumkHQ

I don't see me giving it up forever, but I am not much of a drinker overall. I intend to stick to no drinking for 6-9 months after surgery. It does use up calories ineffectively and alcohol is dehydrating and is likely a factor in the early stages when it is difficult to consume enough liquids as it is.

I know everyones doctor has different opinions -- but bread, Pasta, and rice become like playdoh had cause the blockage. I am wondering if the crust caused that for you?? Here is some great info I copy and pasted from another post - hopefully you will find helpful! How to Tell When You Are Perfectly Adjusted You are losing 1-2 pounds per week. If you are not losing 1-2 pounds per week: A. You may need an eating adjustment 1. Are you eating 60 grams of Protein a day? 2. Are you eating 25 grams of Fiber? 3. Are you avoiding all liquid calories? a. Soup can be sign of soft calorie syndrome b. Alcohol contains a lot of calories 7 calories per gram.(It's also a stomach irritant). c. fruit juice is just sugar Water 4. Are you making healthy food choices from a wide variety of foods? a. Are you avoiding soft foods b. You can't just eat what's easy c. cheese is glorified fat 5. Are you drinking 6-8 glasses of water a day between meals? 6. Are you eating too much junk? a. chips, chocolate, nuts, ice cream, Cookies and other highly processed junk foods are too calorically dense to be regular parts of a healthy diet. But don't avoid them completely to the point where you feel deprived. b. Stay out of fast food places 7. Are you getting in two servings of Calcium daily? 8. Do you always eat the protein first? 9. Then the vegetables or fruits a. Five servings a day b. Potatoes are NOT a vegetable 10. Is your portion size appropriate? a. meat or fish (3 ounces the size of a deck of cards) b. Vegetables (½ cup the size of your fist) c. Starch (If you eat the protein and the vegetables first you don't need much - Avoid: rice, potatoes, pasta) 11. You might try avoiding artificial sweeteners a. Some people think that artificial sweeteners stimulate the appetite b. They are HUNDREDS of times sweeter than sugar c. They teach you to like things too sweet d. There is no evidence that people who use them are any thinner than people who don’t 12. Avoid most diet foods a. Real food usually tastes better b. Real food is more satisfying than low calorie substitutes c. When you are only eating a tiny bit the caloric savings is not that great (Use a teaspoon of real butter instead of a tablespoon of diet margarine. d. The body has no way to break down artificial fats). a. They may go into permanent storage b. Some people think liposuction is the only way to remove hydrolyzed fats from the body B. You may need a behavior adjustment 1. Are you eating only when you are hungry? a. If you're not sure drink 8 ounces of water and wait 2. Are you eating three meals a day? a. With maybe 1 or 2 small Snacks (preferable NOT) 3. Are you sitting down to eat? 4. Are you eating consciously? a. No distractions, turn off the TV, put the book or newspaper away, pay attention to your food and your companions 5. Are you eating slowly? a. Put the fork down between bites b. Take 20 to 30 minutes to finish a meal c. Taking longer might cause the pouch to begin emptying 6. Are you taking small bites? a. Tiny spoon, chopsticks, cocktail fork 7. Are you chewing well? 8. Are you drinking with your meals or too soon after your meals? a. Practice water loading between meals b. You won't be thirsty if you are well hydrated before the meal 9. Are you stopping at the first sign of fullness? a. Sometimes it's a whisper: not hungry, had enough b. Hard stop versus soft stop 10. Do not eat between meals. Stop grazing. 11. Do not eat when you are not hungry C. You may need an activity adjustment 1. Are you getting in 30 minutes of physical activity at least 3 times a week? a. Over and above what you would do in the usual course of your day b. Could you make it 4 or 5 times a week? c. Could you make it 45 or 60 minutes? 2. Are you taking advantage of opportunities to increase your physical activity? a. Taking the stairs instead of the elevators or escalators b. Walking on the escalators instead of riding c. Parking your car further away from the entrance d. Getting out of the car instead of using the drive through e. Getting off the bus one stop before your destination f. Washing you car by hand instead of the car wash g. Playing with your kids D. You may need an attitude adjustment 1. Are you committed to your weight loss journey? 2. Are you totally honest with yourself about how much you are eating and exercising? a. Log your food and activity on ww.fitday.com for 3 days 3. Are you using food inappropriately to deal with emotional issues? a. Have you identified what the emotions are that drive your eating? b. Can you think of more appropriate ways to deal with those emotions? c. Are you willing to seek help from a qualified counselor? 4. Are you attending and participating in support group meetings? 5. Have you drummed up some support from your family and friends? 6. Have you dealt with saboteurs realistically? 7. Do you have realistic expectations about the weight loss journey? 8. Are you still obsessing about food, weight, dieting, eating? a. Obsessive compulsive thoughts (Obsess about something else) b. Perfectionism (All or none, black and white thinking) c. Patience with the pace of healthy weight loss 9. Are you acknowledging your successes with non-food rewards? 10. Have you learned how to take a compliment? 11. Are you giving up diet mentality? a. Stop weighing yourself several times a day or every day b. Stop dieting c. Stop depriving yourself d. Stop defining food as good and bad e. Stop rewarding and punishing yourself with food 12. How do you feel about all the changes taking place? E. You may need a band adjustment 1. You feel like you are making healthy food choices in appropriate portion sizes but getting hungry between meals? 2. You can still eat white bread, fibrous vegetables and large portions. 3. You are having to struggle to lose 4. You are gaining weight in spite of eating right, exercising and having a good mind set. F. You may need your band loosened 1. There are times when you can’t get fluids down 2. You are vomiting too much a. How much is too much? More than once by my defination. 3. Do you have frequent reflux or heartburn at night? a. Do not lie flat or bend over soon after eating b. Do not eat late at night or just before bedtime c. Rinse your pouch with a glass or water an hour before bedtime d. Certain foods or drinks are more likely to cause reflux: (1) Rich, spicy, fatty and fried foods (2) Chocolate (3) Caffeine (4) Alcohol (5) Some fruits and vegetables (6) Oranges, lemons, tomatoes, peppers (7) Peppermint (8) Baking soda toothpaste (9) Carbonated drinks e. Eat slowly and do not eat big meals f. If you smoke, quit smoking g. Reduce stress h. Exercise promotes digestion i. Raise the head of your bed j. Wear loose fitting clothing around your waist k. Stress increases reflux l. Take estrogen containing medications in the morning m. Avoid aspirin, Aleve and ibuprofen at bedtime (Tylenol is OK) n. Take an antacid (Pepcid complete) before retiring o. Try other over-the-counter heartburn medications p. See your health care provider HUGS to EVERYONE!<!-- google_ad_section_end --><!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Zoiks didn't realized I miss so many posts. Reflux....well I took the prilosec prescription two nights and both nights slept that was last weekend. Since then I've been up every night with this crap. Some nights I"m coughing like crazy and my chest hurts from the acid other days, I cough a little, take a tums and I'm able to sleep. Craziness! Of course...TOM has been here all week so I don't know if that made it worse or not...so now I'm playing head games with myself. OK now that TOM is almost done...maybe it will go away again and I don't have to worry. So we'll see...if it keeps up again next week (as if a few months hasn't been enough) I'll call my doc and see if she'll prescribe the Aciphex. I'm going to tell her about my banded friends who have had success with it. MAYBE she'll remember I have the freaking band in the first place instead of me having to remind her yet again and believe me and let me try it. All I can say is reflux sucks and it really does make me worry about my esophogus (did I spell that right? don't wanna check lol being a rebel). Cripe one morning at 3am I woke my DH up with all the freaking coughing and choking and I was practically in tears over it. He was concerned and I chopped his head of saying I'm sick of this and I'm getting ready to have it ripped out. Poor man...he didn't deserve it but, he did the right thing, rolled over and went to sleep lol. naturally I got over it and I really don't want this taken out because you know what people...........as much as I'd like to say I have this weight thing under control and I've learned so much....I haven't. Its all my fault, I"m the only one raising my hand or fork to my mouth and I'm the one sitting on my ars in front of this computer since early this morning only occassionally getting up to switch laundry or clean. If I have this taken out I'll be as big as a house again Sad but true so I need to get this reflux under control so I can concentrate on the other things that will get me to goal. Its difficult right now to eat right because nothing sits right in my stomach BLECK. Anywho...enough of my ranting and raving...geesh maybe I belong in that thread huh? Cripe too afraid to post in there after all I've read. People really aren't very nice in there most of the time it's sad. Ok ok enough of this crappyola from me hahaha Last night took a friend out for his 40th birthday with his wife and my DH. We had a blast..one of those places where they cook the food on the table in front of you. Sirloin and chicken for me and took more than half of it home. The others ate all theirs. (Hmmm ya think my band is working?) Had a drink...some peach something or other...man it hit me pretty hard. Naturally I can't drink and eat at the same time (I guess I did learn a little something lol) so I drank it all first. Wooooozie for me after that but, fun hahaha. Wowza great time, great mean....big bill I'll be paying for for a while. Oh well..won't be doing that anytime soon but, DH and I really love these two and they've been going through a hard time with some stuff so getting them out was well worth it. They'd be the people who would drop everything to help us too...nice to have those kind of people in your life. Anyway...my point...after that great fun, drink and meal...got home and upchucked just about all of it. Something didn't sit right..probably the alcohol I"m not used to drinking and then eating so quickly after it. ZOIKs it was ugly. I swear I broke blood vessels in my face and I was seeing stars and once I started I couldn't stop. Cripe! Haven't thrown up that hard in a while. yuck but, saved on some calories huh? Jetti - I LOVE to bake but, eating cake and brownies doesnt' always agree with me. I think what I'm noticing lately or what I'm wondering is....is every time I feel sick caused from white floured things? Does that make sense people? Anyone? So...I have this DVD Hip Hop Abs someone let me borrow WEEKS ago. (Poor girl hope she wasn't expecting me to use it right away ugh) I promised her I would use it today. She's been good trying to get me moving. She's a coach on Beachbody, think I mentioned it before. Anyway since I promised I always keep my promise so I'll do that today and let you folks know how it is Betty - July 4th party sounds like fun actually. Wish I could make a trip to TX I wish I could meet you folks I really do. I love you all lots and you're always so supportive...THANK YOU EVERYONE. yea...I'm going through something huh? I think it's the lack of sleep lol Up and down...hormones are wacked too. I'm still upbeat...but beat myself up. Make sense? Zoiks need to get off this thing before I depress ya all. ok.......trying to Psych myself up to do this HIP HOP chit hahaha. Now if the music is cool that will help.......say a prayer for me folks hahahaha

I can so relate to what your saying and it's not fun. . .unfortunately we are given this sleeve as a tool only, what we do with it is our decision. . . since last october i've fallen off the wagon pretty badly and gained quite a bit of weight (not tons but enough to shock me) and i had to think about what it was that i had been doing wrong. . . i found that i've come under A LOT of stress both at home and at work. . . so being a emotional eater, guess what????? I was eating all the time not realizing what I was doing. . . it didn't seem like much at those times, heck a small bag of pretzels here and small bag of licorice there. . . pork rinds EVERYDAY up to 2 bags of them, lots of alcohol, going out to eat more often. . . you get the picture. . . well i would weigh myself and couldn't understand why the heck was i not moving off the same weight i was on for the past few months so I stopped weighing myself as well. . .(oh and to mention I stopped exercising too) well then here at the end of february I got up onto the scale after not being weighed for a few weeks and oh my god I thought i was going to die, have a stroke, or both but I had gained soooooooooo much weight (25lbs, no the scale was not wrong). . . but how was that possible? Well it is and it will happen to all of us if we don't get a handle onto it. . . the sleeve is only a tool it's not a miracle thing that will make us loose weight we are the ones who have to work with it in order to loose the weight. . . well i got back to basics (and let me tell you it's extremely hard now) but since i have i've lost 4 lbs in 3 days, i will continue to eat Proteins first and ONLY 3 meals a day without Snacks like it was recommended by my nut back in the beginning. . . This is a big set back for me, I was soooooo close to my goal and now have to work 2x as hard to get there but i will get there. . . I didn't spend $15,000.00 of my hard earned money to regain my weight! So I hope that this story helps you out a bit, maybe scares you a bit, but it's true and very real. . I'm living through it now and was really embarrassed to talk about it, but the best therapy is to realize what is happening and get it out into the open . . . so here I am telling you to be really careful. . . don't sabatoge yourself. . it's a lot harder if you do. . . good luck to you and to EVERYONE here. . . .