Search the Community

The recent statistics from the CDC (Center for Disease Control and Prevention) has reported that about one-third (33.8%) of U.S. adults are obese. That number rises every day, and keeping up with it is more difficult than keeping up with your stocks. I work with the finest bariatric surgeons in the U.S. They are dedicated to helping their patients lose weight in an effort to thwart diseases, and minimize current disease progression. I also run several 12-step food addiction groups in the city of Houston and online in many cities. I talk to morbidly obese patients everyday. I teach them, counsel them, eat with them, and spend endless hours reading their journals. These patients have a story to tell, but we aren’t listening and we continue asking the wrong questions. To be sure, obesity is genetic and many times the social milieu of obese patients I work with is chaotic with issues of abuse, abandonment, shame, ridicule, and anger. The genetic role helps explain the body type; the way food may be processed, stored, and proportioned. It cannot explain what keeps the person from changing the behavior that contributes to obesity. In my work, during step 4 of the 12-step addiction group, the group members begin making amends. They look at how their behavior got them where they are. They quit thinking about how they were abused, and begin to consider how they hurt/abused others. The step is painful, gut wrenching and overwhelming for all of these patients. It is also the step I ask them, “How do you benefit from being obese?” At first they look at me as if I am crazy. After all, they are weight loss surgery patients, and have gone to extremes to lose weight. They laugh, shake their head, and say, “Mary Jo, what are you smoking?” Then the room gets quiet. One of the bravest patients will say, “My obesity gives me an excuse. I am not held to the same standards as others; they don’t expect it, because I am morbidly obese.” Another will chime in, “My obesity keeps men away; I was sexually abused by my dad for 4 years of my life.” A statistic that no one likes to talk about was one mentioned in Bariatric Times in 2007. As many as 20 to 40% of obese women have been sexually molested, harassed and/or perpetrated (they know it’s higher than that but can’t ascertain the exact amount). Yet another will talk about how her/his marriage is so distant that food has become their lover/best friend. They are lonely, and they eat to comfort that incredible sense of loss. Another part of my job focuses on the group that failed the weight loss surgery. If you have never been morbidly obese, or gone through a weight loss surgery only to have the weight come back, you cannot understand the depth of failing these patients feel. They are cursed by their unresolved reasons for going back to food. They don’t understand it, and often those who love them most don’t either. A Gastric Bypass, Gastric Sleeve, Lap Band, or Duodenal Shift is never going to successfully keep weight off if the patient has no idea why they are eating, and experience a fear of stopping. Many of the cravings patients feel are emotional; totally unrelated to real hunger. How can a weight loss surgery of any kind manage emotional hunger? It cannot. When we evaluate patients who struggle with obesity we talk frequently about denial. I am beginning to think they are no more in denial than we, the health care professionals. We can talk food all we want, but most of my patients know what healthy food is; they could write a cookbook with the calorie count included! They know food like most of us know our lover. What they need help with are the tough questions. One of those questions is, “What are the benefits you are experiencing from your obesity?” We have to ask this, and we should ask it prior to weight loss surgery so we can begin the process of helping them understand this part. People drop old behaviors when they are no longer benefiting from them. You don’t need to be a weight loss surgery patient to begin the yoyo dieting process. If weight protects you from receiving attention, and you have been sexually abused in your childhood, then when you begin losing weight you are going to turn to food to manage the anxiety you feel when a man gives you eye contact. When patients begin to understand what they are protecting or avoiding with their weight, they can effectively work a weight loss program and keep the weight off. It is also important to look at obese children’s homes especially if there is a substantial weight gain. Many times, something is going on at home that is causing this child to medicate their anxiety with food. Society continues to be judgmental and negative with obese people. One thing is clear: shaming or ignoring obesity is not helping curb or decrease the numbers.

Just go and face the music. I'm sure a little tough love never hurt anyone :blushing: I know the doctor is probably not going to be happy with me either. I had a fun filled weekend of lots of beer, Dairy Queen, mexican food, and even a fried gas station burrito at 3AM last weekend. Thanks to all that, My 6lbs came back and then some! RIDICULOUS! My total weight gain is 7lbs since unfill but I have until Friday to work out and eat right again so maybe I'll only be up a few pounds. I've been thinking though, if I didn't gain a lb with being unfilled, they might not want to put any back in soooo showing a few lbs weight gain might not be such a bad thing. I've almost got myself talked into buying a Gold's Gym Stride Trainer 595. Anyone have any experience with ellipticals? When I was 300lbs, I tried to get on one and definitely thought I was going to die/have a heart attack after 30 seconds.

One area that I think many doctors don't do a good job of explaining is that there are two kinds of hunger. True physical hunger it's been 5 + hours since your last meal, you stomach is rumbling huger. The second kind is head hunger. It's been 3 hours since lunch, I'm bored, my boss is a pain in the $#%@%$, and I wish I was anywhere but here hunger. If you don't feel full, it has been a couple hours since lunch, you feel justified buying those Cookies from the vending machine. My doctor had 3 required group sessions with a pychologist where we dicussed physical/emotional/food triggers that led us to eat when we were'nt really hungry. Due to other health issues my journey from first consult to surgery was longer then most 7.5 months. My insurance did not have a required 6 months diet but I put those months to good use. I lost 50 pounds. I did a lot of work on my food choices. I also put those mindfull eating sessions to good use. I studied friends and family who are thin. How fast do they eat, what are their food choices, what are their exercise habits. There was medical journal article recently that showed in families where males are alcoholics the woman are more likely to be obese. I was like were they studying my family and did'nt tell me! My brother is a recovering alcoholic and I am a food addict, this is the pattern in on my maternal side. Willpower oh willpower! There are many people on this site who post that they get "restriction" (where they eat a bandster sized meal 1-1/2 cups of food, feel satiation/fullness, and can go 4-5 hours before they need to eat), after say 5CC's of fill. There are however several of us who don't feel full from smaller portions until 9+ CC's. Here's where the willpower comes in. You measure out your food; and when it's gone you are done eating. Stong likelihood you will not feel full. But you have to stop eating. That's where will power comes in. My doctor does'nt not want snacking between meals. So you've had a very small meal and it 4-5 hour before you can eat again. Enter "Bandster Hell". Here is also where frustration can set in. After months of preparing for surgery there is a huge let down where you are hungry after meals and you may not be losing weight very fast. I am pretty very conservative about my food choices, count calories, exercise an hour daily; and I am losing at average 1 lb per week. Perhaps now that I am at restriction I will lose at a quicker rate. The ever allusive full feeling. At 10.00 CCs after eating (again stopped when my measured food ran out) I felt a satiation, not full just not hungry. After about 5-10 minutes I would get a full sensation. I could go 3-3:30 hours before feeling hungry and would grit it out for 4 hours. Now at 10.6 ccs I do get a much stronger satiation closer to full feeling as I'm eating. My nurse said to eat until I feel like I can't eat another bite. I don't do that because I have never had vomiting or slim/Productive Burp and I don't care to. After eating I get a full feeling and don't feel hungry for 4-5 hours depending oh what I have eaten. Here's what I think the band does for me at this point. Head hunger. It's been 3 hours since lunch and I'm bored. I get food thoughts, I ask myself are you really hungry enough to eat? Really? Or are you bored? I consult my stomach (don't laugh) and it says' "No, not really hungry". This allows the logical side of my brain to will the battle. On diets preband I always eventually give up. While I do not make "treat" foods part of my normal diet; if I am at a party after I've eaten my Protein and some veggies I allow myself a small amount of diet unfriendly foods. Before banding it did'nt matter how much I had already eaten I always had room for as much high fat/calories food as I could my hands on. Now I don't feel hungry enough to keep eating serving after serving. I think it boils down to do you think you can stay on weight watchers for ever? If so do that. My problem is when I've gone on very strict diets (and 3 times in my life preband I lost over 100 pounds) eventually I just can't take it anymore. I start to let in high cal/fat foods and it snow balls and I don't eat them occationally or in small portions; I eat them all day everyday and in large portions. If you can't make food habits a life long commitment they eventually will stop and you will go back to unhealthy ones that will lead to weight gain.

@SAsurgery Hi. I'm 15 1/2 years out from a traditional DS. - What foods do you avoid? (Fatty foods? Carbs? Can you tolerate small amounts?) I eat fatty foods. It helps to "grease the wheels" so to speak. For instance, I buy 80% chopped ground beef as I need the fat. It does generally takes me 2 sittings to finish a meal. - Do you have diarrhea? Sometimes. My doctors classify diarrhea as going too much and/or going liquid. I'm more in the too much area. This will occur if I eat junk and/or too many simple carbs. That's why I eat them pretty much only at home. If you have diarrhea and you're not sure why, it can signify it's time for a dose of Flagyl. Many DSers I know take it yearly and I probably should, too. Just to keep things even. - How many Vitamins do you take? Have you experienced Vitamin deficiencies? Have you had to get infusions? I take over 40 a day. It's second nature. As a matter of fact, when I wasn't permitted to take them while going through gb surgery, I went a little nutty. I'm just so used to it after so long. I've had some issues with my bloods. Sometimes the numbers are too high, other times too low. My surgical group has me do them every 6 mos. so tweaks can be made to what I take. The only infusion I take is Reclast. But I know a good many DSers who need iron infusions. That's never been an issue for me. - Do you struggle to maintain your weight loss? Do you feel like you are constantly on a diet? No and no (and we don't count calories). I kept a food log for the first 6 mos., now I have a protein ticker in the back of my head that just checks off protein grams. I eat 125-150gr/day so I'm constantly eating protein. Just had my mid-morning snack which was cheese and nuts. I also keep it low on the simple carbs. I don't want the weight gain or the gas/stool issues. I'll probably grab a triple cheeseburger w/catsup from McD later if I'm hungry in the afternoon. I just eat the meat. First, bc the bun is too filling and I always eat protein first. Second, bc I don't want what will come with the carbs. - Anything else you wish you had known before surgery? Do a Dexa scan preop. So you can have a baseline. Keep all your blood work. I have it since preop. It allows me to look for trends (esp. the last 3 draws) and also can help out if there's an issue. Some DSers I know have made a spread sheet for their blood work. I've never missed a day of supplements. I expect as a Dr. you won't either. 😊

I meet my husband while I was still thin in high school. We just celebrated our 5 year anniversary last week. He has been very supportive of my weight gain and my decisions to have surgery. It sucks because he is 6' 175lbs and can easy anything! I feel that people have to have an initial physical attraction in order to be interested in getting to know you in a romantic way. I do feel my husband may not have hit on me if I had started at this weight before he knew me.

It depends on what kind of work you do. Personally i would try to take a little longer if you can. But at about 2 weeks i felt capable of doing everything minus extra bending and don't lift ! The binder was on me when i came out of surgery. You can buy them also at a home medical supply store. Also i wanted to mention you might have some serious swelling afterwards for a couple days. So dont freak about weight gain. It will come off.

@@mrsbailey921 an article on webmd says tonsil removwl can can leqd to weight gain http://www.webmd.com/children/news/20110201/tonsil-removal-may-lead-weight-gain

This will sound crazy but I thought I would share. I was diagnosed with Pseudo Tumor in 2002. It was really bad and at that point I had lost 75% of my peripheral vision. (My vision was restored once I had spinal taps to reduce the pressure) Over the next 2 years I suffered with debilitating headaches. Many medications were tried and the majority of the time I was in a major fog from the medications. The doctor wanted to do a shunt but I refused. I had spinal taps to relieve the pressure. (55 in a 2 year span) I lost enough weight to put me at a normal BMI and still suffered symptoms. I also suffered from migranes on top of the pressure headaches. In 2005 I had a Hysterectomy to help with the migraines. My Neuro said it wouldn't help with the migraines but my Gyn disagreed. Now I gained major weight after the surgery. Well...... since I had the hysterectomy I haven't had another episode with the Pseudo Tumor even with the weight gain. Not sure if it was a fluke or a miracle. Today I no longer take any meds for the Pseudo Tumor and I am working on the weight gain with a Realize Band.

They are right... you probably have no restriction in your band.. i know i dont... I also know the scale can easily show five pounds weight gain around period time. Once it passes and its over.. the scale will go back down.. I just went through it. Right now i am hungry like i was prior to surgery.. I feel like i am on a diet and strictly on will power. i have no restriction in my band...and honestly i cant wait to get some :mad:

I had my sleeve about 5 weeks ago and weighed today - scale says I gained three pounds?!? But I haven't eaten anything I'm not supposed to eat! I started exercising 3 days ago, could that show up as weight gain?

Hey guys just wanted to check in. I know I have not been on very much. I've been dealing with weight gain and loss it's been up and down a lot, I know the holidays don't help but any thoughts would be helpful I've been up to 230 then down to 221 . I believe it was now back up to 226 as of today that's been up and down and I'm just not sure what's going on. I did have gallbladder surgery recently, learning that red meats not my friend. Any thoughts would be really really helpful thank you Sent from my SM-J737A using BariatricPal mobile app

You have already answered your concerns. I believe as you said, if you are contemplating quitting smoking, you will be more capable of handling any potential for weight gain now rather than closer to you goal weight and maintenance. Good luck with your choice. Denise said: On the other hand, if the weight loss is easier in these earlier months, maybe that will minimize any potential weight gain from quitting?

The first thing every morning..... I get up go into the bathroom, get undressed and weight myself.... It has never gone up more than 2 ounces and occasionally stays the same. The 2 ounces I don't attribute to a "weight gain". it always goes down the next day

TA: Several things come to mind from your posts. 1) Watch the sodium level in those power drinks. They can cause additional swelling which you really don't need right now. 2) I would suggest that you go back to your band surgeon for help if he is close by still, or the teaching hospital is a great idea. Even though the bariatric surgeon primarily does bands, he is still a surgeon and they are often the best ones to deal with your innards once you have the band because they know where they placed it and how to work around it if they have to go in. 3) I agree that you must be your own advocate. If you need help, take someone with you. Make a list of questions/statements that you have and make sure your friend has a copy to make sure you ask everything and get answers. They can also help record the answers that you get because sometimes we hear something that catches us off guard or gets our minds churning and we don't hear anything after that. 4) Flat out demand a complete GI series (upper and lower). You need to make sure that there are no ulcers, obstructions, etc. anywhere along the way. 5) Have your physician check your gall bladder, both for stones and for proper function. The heartburn, nausea, fever and resultant dehydration and weakness sounds very similar to what I had when I had stones and my gall bladder was extremely infected. Some people have pain in their back or stomach as well, but I never did. Things like cheese and milk made me really sick though. I still can't eat pizza and that was 15 years ago! Yo-yo weight gain/loss over many years or just weight loss is a major trigger for the creation of gall stones so it would make sense. Just my ten cents worth for the day. What ever you do, don't give up. Make the docs figure it out! I wish you luck!

I don't quite understand though... if the sleeve does not stretch much (or so i have heard) how will I be able to binge? it just doesn't seem physically possible Slider foods can be eaten in large quantities, such as ice-cream, chocolate, cakes, biscuits, chips etc. Also,even though the sleeve does not stretch, after it is completely healed (6 months) the hunger and capacity to eat more returns. If this is not controlled through strict portion sizes, like 1/2 to 1 cup max at a meal, the weight will come back on. Put "Weight gain" or "Regain" in the Search button, and you will read stories of people who gained or even regained weight. Another slider food/drink is Alcohol, full of sugar and calories. I can't give you scientific explanation why people can eat more after the sleeve, but it does happen if they stray from the diet guidelines. As someone mentioned earlier, yes you can eat around the sleeve. I can have a big bowl of ice-cream now, being 7 months post op. I can certainly eat more now. Some foods I had issues with early post op, I am fine now. I choose to eat healthy, because I want to reach my goal, and maintain it. Show me a person who binges on Protein ..... As far as I know, the binge foods are sugary, fatty, sweet and salty carb processed foods. Easy to binge on after sleeve as well.

Last May, a WL Dr put paperwork in to my ins co to get a pre-authorization to begin a12-month weight loss counseling program. I weighed 206. During the summer I had a terrible family event and put on 20 lbs. On May 2 my yr will be finished and the Dr will put thru the final paperwork and it's going to show that I gained. I'm worried I will be turned down so now I'm desparate to try an lose 15 lbs in 5 weeks. A little depressed because I don't know if I can do it...... His surgical muse has even penciled me in for June 26. I'm do close but feel so far.

My weight gain started with pregnancy. 60 lbs gained with my first child. I lost 40lbs but with each child I pilled 20 pounds. Then, with 3 kids I just didn't take care of myself, I was too busy caring for my family and I didn't matter. I used food as a source of pleasure. It's what relaxed me. But I must say, I was hungry all the time. Even after a Thanksgiving meal I was hungry. I am so glad I don't feel that hunger anymore. It was horrible and there was nothing I could do to control it.

Ok, I get you! So let me do the scenario another way? So let's say, you're taking in the amount of calories per day that are prescribed for you by your doc/RD. These are maintenance level calories based on your individual food requirements and exercise habits. The intention is that it's an isocaloric diet--you will neither gain, nor lose on it--supposedly. And you go about life over the next 2-3 years without changing one tiny spec of this prescription. You're still eating that same diet/calorie level. You are not cheating. You're doing your exercise at the same level, same amount per week, etc. Will weight gain be inevitable? Will you be held hostage to your body adjusting/acclimating and overcoming the changes made through surgery? Are we doomed to fight regain, even though we do everything right? (ie for RNYers we get part of our intestines removed, and studies show that at 2-3 years, our remaining intestines have grown more microvilli so that more food absorption can occur. So it's adapted to the new anatomy--at least partially.) ORRRRRR If we do everything "right" as described above, can we safely expect to be able to maintain our total original weight loss without fearing the 10-20lb regain? Thanks for entertaining this question with me and for any reassurances to the future!!

I got sleeved 4/10. I'm not able to answer your question precisely but I'm kind of in the same boat. Currently I don't eat with my family, but I do eat with my friends. I simply check if the menu offers soup or ask if they can accommodate me. If all else fails, I order herbal tea with artificial sweetener. I've only went out with my best friend, who knows I had the surgery. It's definitely not recommended to do so now but I just had my graduation ceremony. My aunt did the gastric sleeve years before I did. I don't think she began to eat "normally" until after a year. She never fully finishes a meal but will want a small snack afterwards (yogurt). She can't handle spicy food for anything, even now. She doesn't follow the rule of 30 anymore. Almost every time she eats out, she gets heartburn, indigestion, etc. When she finishes eating, it's not because she's happily satisfied but because she's uncomfortable. That's not to say that she doesn't enjoy her food. Obviously, this is when we would go out for rich, once-in-a-while type food. She doesn't really experience this with home cooked foods. Bear in mind, she also fell into some of her old habits. Thankfully, she didn't have too much weight gain. I've also noticed she's a lot pickier now, taste wise. Downright acts like a food critic. Overall, she definitely eats enough that it isn't obvious she had WLS. She just appears to be finnicky with a sensitive stomach. Her initial recovery was a month long so that spared her from dealing with people who didn't know she did the procedure. When she went back to work, her coworkers were all up in her business demanding to know why she was eating so little (and not out of concern). They would bring her sweets even though they were fully aware she was dropping weight. It was clear they were trying to sabotage her. Outside of work, the only people she's had to deal with were family and her husband's friends. So, she only had serious social gatherings around the holidays, and she was sleeved in the Spring. WLS is obviously not ideal if you have a robust social life. For me, even when I get to my soft food stage, I'll still order soup at restaurants because I'm not going to ask them to make my food nursing-home soft in front of who I'm having dinner with. If anybody has an issue, I'll say I ate earlier. Can't drink after WLS. I'll say I've gone sober. Drinking ages you, anyway.

Here's mine: Health aspects Your weight is at a somewhat elevated level; in our view, it may be less than optimal for your health. Contrary to the WHO classification of "obese", we hold the statement that you are only "overweight". Your body fat mass seems to be a slightly above average. But health ought not be affected provided your blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugar levels remain at moderate values. This could be more likely if you have a higher muscle mass and a lower amount of body fat. SBMI = 43/70 This assessment is based on the newly developed Smart Body Mass Index. Its ideal range is between 30/70 and 39/70. Your Smart Body Mass Index (SBMI) is calculated as 43/70 or "43 points out of 70". Weight stability At this weight level, you are at risk of gaining more weight. If you manage to maintain your current weight, you have reached your first and most important goal. Weight loss should only take the second place. Your SBMI will decrease by about one point within ten years if you manage to keep your 195 pounds stable. This is due to the fact that the optimal, i.e. the "healthiest" BMI range increases with age, thus reaching higher BMI values. Weight management The best you can do is eat healthy food and increase your fitness. This will boost your health, whatever the case. If you lose weight in the process, all the better. Your target weight of 140 pounds Your weight target is in the right direction but very ambitious. A fast weight loss of 55 pounds kilograms could be the initial phase of a yo-yo effect. It may be safer to try 11 pounds first, stabilize on the level of 184 pounds and then set a new target, if this seems sensible. By the way, being fat without tobacco is better than being slim due to nicotine. The best advice for smokers is to postpone the weight loss and stop smoking first. To curb a weight gain, the following suggestions may be helpful. Nutrition Think over your diet. Eat a variety of foods that you like, optimally including five servings of fruit and/or vegetables a day. Avoid eating too sweet, too fat and too much. Your current low-carb diet Low-carb diets may help to reduce body weight and improve blood sugar an lipid levels. However, in contrast to a Mediterranean diet, low-carb diets are much less sustainable. Moreover, they likely increase disease and mortality risk, despite short term improvement of some risk factors. If you want to stop dieting, do it step by step. Physical activity Do physical exercise at least for half an hour daily at moderate to vigorous intensity. Walking or cycling may be better for your joints than jogging.

Newbie here, I’m getting sleeved on the 22nd of March at a BMI of 35.1 Ive had so many people tell me I’m not “that” fat but I’m sorry, 35.1 is severely obese (even though I may not look “that fat”) and as a doctor I know the risks that come with excess weight. I also know the research around weight loss and that this is my best shot of losing the weight and maintaining it long term. I have tried every diet known to man, been to see countless dietitians, have tried all the medications, I exercise like crazy and all I’ve managed is to stall the weight gain. My hubby and I want to start a family next year and I want to give myself the best opportunity for a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby- which means I need a healthy weight. I feel my weight is impacting on my chronic migraines and my asthma, and I’m really hoping that losing the weight and feeling better about myself will be that last thing I need to finally fully recover from years of severe treatment resistant depression. So yes, many reasons why I am choosing to have a sleeve at a “low” BMI. Mostly I just want to be healthy! Thanks for reading...

FYI - while I may be nationally ranked in my age group in my sport - I also have a resting metabolic rate of 1100 cal per day to avoid weight gain (had the study done a few weeks ago - my resting heart rate is generally about 45). I generally do not eat what I burn, but do work out to burn about 800-2000 calories a day - So on those days I boost my protein and carb consumption usually with supplemental shakes pre or post workout. However, on Saturday, I did fence a tournament and burned about 3000 calories. I had takeout chinese for dinner that night - but ordered shrimp with broccoli and ate 4 shrimp and a bunch of broccoli over about 1/4 cup of brown rice. Certainly whether to eat out or not is up to you. I eat out at least one a week. I've learned to manage - it has taken time. Best wishes to you.

All the IV fluids they give you also cause weight gain. Don't sweat it! It'll be gone in no time.

I have and I will the odd time if I fancy one or I am out boozing, which isn’t often lol I was a massive cherry coke junkie but because I was terrified of getting diabetes I would drink a lot of zero I drank at least 2liters of coke a day pre op we also didn’t have zero cherry then either. My taste for it has changed I find it sweet, I never liked diet coke because it was so sweet to me now zero is the same fake super sweet so not as ahhh that’s the stuff like it was before. I was told by one of my doctors seriously to stretch my sleeve by drinking carbonated drinks all day every day day after day for months and I would stretch it out. Long story short I have a small sleeve it was his way of telling me how I can make it bigger and have more room. 1 soda wont stretch you out 1 a week wont even do it you have to keep on doing it constantly over a period of time to have the gas stretch you out. They just dont want us to for that reason AND soda is a major cause of weight gain even diet when people just cut soda out of there diet and nothing else they drop a lot of weight its crazy. I think I first tired a cherry coke about 2 months out didn’t have more than about 4 mouthfuls in total before I was over it but yeah off and on since no addiction to it for me, had it in a mixer on 27th of dec and didn’t drink much of it none in jan not even half a glass at a baby shower 2nd of feb, had a full can of zero cherry coke today so you can see for me I do but not much.

I'm with you. There are many that stay to a very very low carb diet, for me it would I feel backfire for me and trigger weight gain in the future. My system would be shocked and gain weight out of shock. Moderation for me and where the carbs are coming from is key. But to write them off as the Anti-Christ would backfire for me... As far as weight loss I am losing great but the no or almost non existent carb people are 20% faster at losing. I say we are still in the honeymoon phase so I am looking for longevity... Maybe I'm right, maybe im wrong, just my 2 cents....