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Gallbladder rem & band to sleeve revision
Louie'sMom posted a topic in Revision Weight Loss Surgery Forums (NEW!)
I recently had pancreatitis from gallstones and will have to have Galbladder removed. Doc will also prob remove lap band at that time. I'm on the fence about also having sleeve revision (if covered). Terrified to lose lap band and be off shots (possibly forever) and have massive retain but also don't love the idea of having half my stomach removed FOREVER! Anyone been down this road have wisdom to impart!?!? SW 250 (in 2017). Lost and regained til started shots in Oct 2022 at 241. Currently 205-210.- 3 replies
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I had my surgery 19 months ago, I've been regaining weight for the past 4 months and I feel completely out of control. Are there any tips or tricks to reset myself and get that feeling of not wanting to eat back?
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Why did you prefer Gastric Sleeve over Gastric Bypass?
Justarwaxx replied to HopeBar's topic in Gastric Sleeve Surgery Forums
I got the bypass because I had bad gerd and also I hear regain is harder so yay! -
both i guess. good cuz my inner fat person is glad that i gave myself a bigger skinny buffer from my happy weight; bad because i didn't do it on purpose and i am actually not entirely happy with how it looks on me (sort of), plus my clothes are effing too big on me and i REFUSE to buy new clothes, because i KNOW i will regain the weight eventually. or hope. (background: i got braces on my teeth back in september, and i discovered that i HATE the feeling of food stuck in my braces, so i have to brush and waterpik my teeth EVERY SINGLE TIME i eat something solid....then i discovered i HATE having to clean my teeth like a gazillion times a day, so i just don't eat. yeah, i know, not the greatest reasoning, but there you go. as a result, i lost like 10 lbs (which is actually alot since i was already 115lbs)....but, since i started adding a morning protein shake and eating higher calorie foods when i DO eat, i seem to have stopped/slowed down the weight loss...so we'll see...) sooo maybe if anyone wants to try, getting braces may be a good weight loss tool for you too. lololololzzzzz.
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Cancer Post Surgery.
ShoppGirl replied to ShoppGirl's topic in General Weight Loss Surgery Discussions
Yea I just keep thinking that I will do my best to not gain too much and when I get through the obvious priority my tool will still be there. It won’t be as easy as it was at 3-4 months out but I should be able to do it. Just have to keep my eye on the prize which is getting through this curveball but then get back on track to lose. It may be a bit harder but it can be done. I’ve seen people on here lose their regain several times. I’m sure I’m not the first one to have another major life event at the same time and I won’t be the last. I’ve got this!! -
I would like to end 2025 at approximately the weight I start it. Not because I am hung up on a certain figure but because it's where I feel best. And where all my new clothes fit best. I did achieve that goal this year, but only after regaining a goodly chunk and then actively having to diet to get it off again. I don't like dieting and I feel like I shouldn't need to any more - if I use my sleeve properly. It still does its thing as soon as I let it. I know where I went wrong - I stopped tracking and then stopped weighing myself when the stopping tracking resulted in regain. I also allowed myself more alcohol than I needed (drinking empty calories is completely idiotic). I've nipped that right in the bud. I'd like to eat well, keep tracking, and MAINTAIN (ish) this year. Good luck to everyone with their goals and I love the reframing from resolutions, where so many of us have set ourselves up to fail for years.
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Not sure what your coverage is for them but I strongly suggest you talk to your doctor about the GLP-1 if eating different is the cause for regain. Your tool is still there, you most likely just need help switching your diet back and the GLP-1 should take your appetite away almost completely making that a great deal easier. I have a friend that lost all of her weight and was actually losing too much and had to back off of them because she wasn’t getting enough nutrition. I had to keep reminding her to get in her protein and fluids. She has great coverage for them through her work insurance (she pays $25). I actually wanted to do them when I did my revision this year but I didn’t have adequate coverage for them and financially they just weren’t an option so I went for the revision. I talked to my doctor about waiting but she thought it would be a couple years before anything changed in terms of coverage and my labs were creeping up so waiting wasn’t a good idea. I am doing great in terms of weight loss but faced with another medical issue now, the gastro changes I’ve had aren’t making things any easier for me. Losing the weight is for sure the goal but if you can do it without surgery that’s always better. As far as I know revision is for people who gain without any real known reason. You are saying that you’re eating different for an emotional reason so you probably just need help changing back to your better habits both mentally and physically. Honestly, I think the GLP-1 will be the first option for many people in the very near future. They are considered safer at this point. It’s just a matter of them becoming more accessible for people. Take it with a grain of salt but it’s something I would at least consider before jumping to the surgery option.
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Anyone here 60 or older?
SpartanMaker replied to CherokeeGirl's topic in Gastric Sleeve Surgery Forums
I'm 60, but I think you may be asking the wrong question? Although safety is a potential concern at any age, this is something only your surgeon can properly determine. I can say plenty of people in their 70's have had bariatric surgery. I think the real question should be: what are you expecting to be different this time if you have a revision? Would it still be worth it to you if you once again gained all the weight back? In my opinion, the fact that you've gone back up you your pre-surgery weight means that there are other things going on here that you need to address first. If I had to guess, I'd think there are 2 things you need to address before considering revision surgery, GLP-1 meds, or even fat loss diets: Your mental health. My personal opinion is that the virtually all obese or formerly obese people suffer from an eating disorder, or at least disordered eating of some sort. If you don't address this first, you're really likely to out eat any revision surgery you may have. Your activity level. The fact is that most people that are able to successfully lose weight and keep the weight off (surgical or not), are really active. In fact, some studies show that formerly obese people have to be even more active than someone that was never heavy to maintain the same bodyweight. The reasons for that are complex, but if you don't address this, the likelihood of at least regaining a significant amount of weight are pretty high. Best of luck whatever you decide. -
I'm in my 50s so also close. I had a sleeve 3 years ago. I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you talk about having it again - do you mean a revision of some kind? Second procedures are necessary for many of us, for many reasons. If we can look at *why* we regained, sometimes we can avert regain a second time around. Sometimes not. If you do go with further surgery (and many of us would if and when we regained I think) it might help before that to go back to the immediate post op rules and stick to those. I went for a sleeve partly because it left the door open to a revision if I *did* regain. I'm only 3 years out and glad to have that escape hatch (but - more surgery is not enticing!!!!) I am totally open to GLP-1 /GIP drugs if I do regain a lot. Just different tools. Also open to a revision if necessary - as I said I kind of chose the sleeve on those grounds.
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Booze is taking over, don't let it happen to you.
Spinoza replied to Todd_196's topic in General Weight Loss Surgery Discussions
I hear the GLP-1/GIP drugs (Ozempic, Wegovy, etc) can drastically reduce cravings for alcohol. If you have that combined with some regain could your surgical team prescribe perhaps? -
Looking for Inspiring Stories - Gastric Bypass Journeys!
ChubRub replied to Justarwaxx's topic in Gastric Bypass Surgery Forums
Congrats on your success thus far!!! My stats are in my signature, but I had WLS in December 2019, which seems like a lifetime ago, although it's only been 5 years! I maintained at 112-118 for the first 4 years, and then last year I regained about 20lbs. I decided to try Mounjaro and quickly lost the 20lbs, and am back to maintaining, and this morning weighed in at 116 (daily weighing is a must for me! LOL!). I didn't really have an hurdles or obstacles, and I confess that I sometimes feel a little guilty that's in been so easy! I'm turned 50 this year, but I feel better than I felt when I was 30 (and look way better too! LOL!!) I also have had a few plastic surgeries along the way, which I also highly recommend if you can afford it. I'm a brand new me!! 🙂 Best of luck to you in your journey to a new YOU!!! -
August Surgery buddies
Justarwaxx replied to Averdra's topic in PRE-Operation Weight Loss Surgery Q&A
Hey, congrats on starting your journey! So, sleeve and bypass are both great options, but they work a bit differently. With the sleeve, they remove a part of your stomach, so it’s smaller, which means you’ll eat less and feel full faster. It’s a simpler surgery, and you don’t have to worry about rerouting your intestines or major long-term complications. But, it’s irreversible, and if you have or develop acid reflux, it might get worse. Now, bypass is a bit more intense. They make your stomach smaller and reroute part of your intestines. It’s great if you have diabetes or really bad reflux because it helps with those. Plus, people often lose weight faster. But the downside is you have to be super committed to taking your vitamins forever, or you’ll run into deficiencies. And there’s this thing called dumping syndrome if you eat too much sugar or fat, which feels awful. Honestly, it depends on your health and your goals. Like, do you have reflux or diabetes? How much weight do you want to lose? And are you okay with a more complex surgery if it gives better results? Your surgeon will guide you based on all that, so don’t stress too much now. Just go in with your questions ready. You’ve got time to figure it all out. Good luck at your consultation—it’s a big step, and you’re doing amazing by researching! i did the bypass and lost 20 kgs in 3.5 months Starting weight 109 kg and now 89 kg Also regain is harder with bypass. I suggest u keep reading and also there's more information on YouTube and tiktok -
First, congratulations on your surgery. No, it’s not uncommon to start having doubts, worries, be a bit emotional about things. This is a big thing. Something you have never gone edits so and have absolutely nothing to base these new experiences and emotional reactions you’re having upon. With a sleeve, about 75% of your tummy is removed. This differs person to person & depends upon the size of your tummy. Larger tummy, more is removed. I actually got an internal photo of my tummy being removed (it’s not framed up on my wall 😄). It is impossible for you to regain if you’re following your plan and the volume of food/calories you’re consuming. A very common occurrence, which almost every one experiences, is called the three week stall. Around the three week mark (could be earlier or later than then) your weight loss will stall. It may last from 1-3 weeks. It’s very normal & just your body taking a moment to adjust to the changes and reassess your new needs (metabolic rate, digestive hormones, etc.). You will start losing again. Because there is no hard and fast rule as to your rate of loss, surgeons don’t tend to set weight loss goals - interim or final. There are just lots of averages around how much you may lose and how long it may take. Your surgeon may have spoken to you about how much weight you may lose by a certain time but it’s no guarantee of what will happen but just an idea of what might happen. They may ask how much you’d like to lose and then advise if it is possible or not. Whether it is possible or not is based on stats (averages). Don’t worry about not meeting your fluid or protein goals in the first weeks. It’s not easy in the beginning. As long as you’re making an effort and aren’t too far off. You’ll notice you get closer and closer and some days will be easier & others will be a real struggle. A quarter cup of food seems like nothing to begin but is again not unusual. My advice was 1/4 - 1/3 cup from purée to about a cup at 6 months. If you’re struggling eating soft food you may need to go back a stage for a few days & that ‘s okay. Sometimes we’re ( our tummies) just aren’t ready & healed enough yet to tolerate the more & more dense food as you progress to each new stage. Often weeks 3 & 4 are purées and then soft foods in weeks 5 & 6 but plans do differ. Trust me, it does get better and easier in time.
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Not to confuse you further but consider the SADI surgery as well in your research. It’s fairly new. I started with a sleeve and had to revise because of immediate weight regain and I revised to the Sadi but the SADI can be done as a virgin surgery as well.
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Maybe some newbies will benefit from this answer, too....
NickelChip replied to SleeveToBypass2023's topic in POST-Operation Weight Loss Surgery Q&A
I put mine as the weight on the day I went to my first surgical consult, which was also my highest recorded weight. With the diet and lifestyle changes I made as part of the program, I lost about 13 lbs in the 6 months between then and the start of my pre-op diet. I lost another 13 lbs in those 2 weeks of liquid diet before surgery. But I want credit for all the weight I lost! Interestingly, Dr. Weiner recently said on a podcast that the weight lost on a pre-op diet definitely is credited to the surgery in his opinion. The reasoning was that if you go on a liquid diet, lose 13 lbs, and then try to keep that weight off without having surgery just by eating right, you are going to regain most or all of it in a matter of weeks. The fact that we lose that weight and then keep losing more weight instead of gaining is thanks to the metabolic changes of the surgery. He also told me in a live Q&A support group a while back to use my weight from before the pre-op diet as my starting weight if I wanted to plug it into a prediction calculator. I raised the concern of being a bit behind the prediction based on one of those calculators and he asked me what my weight was before the liquid diet. When we used that number instead of my surgery day weight, it tracked much better (and is still looking very accurate at 9 months out). He said if I had always been 225 lbs (my day of surgery weight) that would be one thing, but in reality, my "true" weight was somewhere between 238 and 251 in terms of what my metabolism was trying to overcome with the surgery. I feel like that's one of those big questions a lot of us have in the beginning and nobody really gives an answer on the calculator sites. -
Welcome PlantMom! There's already some really good advice here on your query. If you can spend some time reading this forum generally you will gain SO much knowledge in a short time. Well worth it. I'm 3 years post sleeve. It has suited me very well - I am 5'9" and was 276lbs before I started my WLS journey, so not that far off your stats. I made a positive choice to have the sleeve based on minimum changes to my anatomy. My surgeon laid out the pros of that Vs the bypass (he only did those two ops) and I decided. I would be really concerned about anyone trying to shoehorn me into what was easier for them. I did have reflux when I was morbidly obese but I lucked out and it actually improved after I lost weight (as it always had before) but if you're a fellow sufferer that might be one to consider carefully. In IRL I know people with sleeve, bypass, AND band, who have failed to lose, or lost and regained everything and more. WLS is a chance to re-think and redefine your relationship with food. I am saying this as someone still doing that and who will be negotiating that forever! It's a lifelong journey for those of us who were born with the propensity to gain gain gain weight in the obesogenic society we now live in. Choose your tool carefully and after as much research as you can. Even then it doesn't work out for everyone but I think it maxes out your chance that you'll be one of the lucky ones. I wish you all the best.
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Congratulations on making your decision to take your life back. Only those who are obese truely understand how limiting and challenging it is as well as its impact on you psychologically and emotionally. There are a number of reasons why people undergo a revision from sleeve to bypass: they develop GERD, weight regain, don’t lose as much as they hoped. Don’t know the rate of this occurring. Doesn’t mean this will happen to yiu.I know people who have had a revision on this forum and people who haven’t. Personally I have three friends with a sleeve all between 4 & almost 7 years out and no revisions. I ‘m 5.5 yrs out with my sleeve and am happy with it & my younger brother just had one done. But we’re all different & the surgeries work in different ways to different people. Sometimes surgeons will recommend bypass over sleeve because of the weight their patient has to lose, weight loss and gain history, pre-existing conditions (like GERD, etc.), etc. Are you able to ask why the surgeon/clinic is encouraging you down the path of a sleeve rather than bypass as this is less common (more common to recommend bypass over sleeve). My cyclical side wonders if it’s because a sleeve is a less complicated surgery, takes less time to perform and sometimes doesn’t require an overnight hospital stay. So do they want you to have a sleeve because it’s less demanding on their services. Ultimately it should be your decision as to which surgery you get. Have a look at some of the you tube videos by Dr Matthew Weiner (pound of cure) & Dr John Pilcher. They cover many topics so you’ll need to work through quite a list (great resources for you post surgery) & will have some on the differences and benefits of the different surgeries. All the best.
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Weight stabilizing so quick?
Lilia_90 replied to newbegining2024's topic in POST-Operation Weight Loss Surgery Q&A
Wholeheartedly with you on this. I was fit and in shape my whole adolescence, I had both my kids and stayed slim and never tracked anything. I worked out hard, ate well, prioritized protein and had fun on the weekends and that worked for me for over a decade and two pregnancies. My weight ballooned up all of a sudden and kept going up and never stopped, and no matter what I did I was never able to lose weight. I had a very bad ankle injury 2 years ago that caused even more weight gain (33 lbs) on top of what I had already gained and due to the injury my mobility was greatly affected and my weight was spiraling out of control. Even at my highest weight I worked out 5 days a week and ate well and Nothing! So I understand your frustration fully. The only thing that worked was the VSG, the pounds melted off like butter and I regained control. If I were to go back in time, I would track everything I ate to figure out where the issue lay, I would weigh myself multiple times a week and see what the scale is telling me. I would do this before jumping on the surgery wagon. I wish I did that, because no matter how much I worked out and how well I thought I was eating, I was doing something wrong, and the surgery outcome proves it. Now that is my own experience, I am all for living worry-free and being intuitive, however these tools can give us great insight until we are where we need to be. I never weighed myself regularly (went by how my clothes fit), now I do. I never tracked my calories, now I do a few times a week just so I don't go off track again. There are days where I don't track because I know roughly how much I'm eating, and some days I do just for QA. Again, calories from here and there add up, so it's good you're aware of that. Also, there are other tools out there (GLP-1s if you're willing) that can rev up your metabolism and help the weight loss start again. With all that being said, you are doing amazing and it is important you don't lose sight of that ♥️ -
10 years post-op accountability partner needed
healthygirlsd posted a topic in Gastric Bypass Surgery Forums
Hi everyone! I’m looking for an accountability partner who understands the journey of a 200+ pound weight loss—whether you’ve already achieved it or are working toward it now. I had gastric bypass 10 years ago and initially lost 200 pounds, but I’ve since regained it. I’m starting to lose my mobility, but I refuse to give up. I know I need to use my tool and get this weight off (again). I’ve found that having an accountability partner makes a big difference, and I tend to stay much more consistent. Plus, I’ll admit I’m a little competitive! I run a business, so my work life can get busy, but I’m committed to making myself a priority this year. Weekly check-ins (or more often, if that works for you) would be great. Ideally, we’d both be committed to our goals and help keep each other accountable. 😊 -
I second that. I am not the same person I was the past 5 years (being overweight and unhappy). I am a very different person and I feel I am back to being me, I really feel I regained my life - and personality - back. Let me very honest and transparent here. Growing up and through my adolescence (to this day, I am still in my early thirties), I have come to terms that men just stare, my sister regularly says "I don't want to be out in public with you because you just attract too much attention" I'm used to being hit on. I have trained my mind to ignore it, I don't think anything of it don't pay attention to it. During the 5 years of being overweight then obese, I was more conscious to notice if I get the stares as I used to? And I did, but they weren't as intense as they are now (mind you they are the worst I've experienced although I was athletic with a BMI of 22 my entire life) but I would say this has to do with the way I carry myself and not entirely the looks. I carry myself with confidence, I don't try to hide myself in baggy clothes, I laugh and smile more and I'm just friendlier and happier, so it's probably my sunshine personality LOL. jokes aside, it is a combo of being fit and in shape and a lovelier personality if I say so myself. According to my husband, he never even noticed I was overweight, he keeps telling me how shocked he was when I told him I've decided to get the sleeve, and he tried talking me out of it BUT, I asked him the other day if he preferred me now or a year ago and his default answer "both" but when I pressed him he admitted and said "Now, you look like a sports illustrated model" HAHA. But again, I come onto him more, I wear sexy lingerie, I tease him, I sit on his lap and I keep the lights on during intimate times, I am more fun and adventurous in bed. Mind you these are things I've not done for 5+ years or probably ever, I feel sexy and I act sexy with him and I can say that after 11 years of marriage, this is the best phase, I feel like we're teenagers again LMAO. As for other men's stares, I don't think anything of that, I've got the best one by my side!
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can you live entirely off protein the shakes??
Arabesque replied to Bessieboop1981's topic in General Weight Loss Surgery Discussions
No! No! No! Besides why would you? Let’s be honest. We enjoy eating. The smell, the textures, the flavours, the look and sometimes the sound of food ( like the crunch of an apple) is appealing & gives us pleasure. We celebrate with food. We share food with loved ones. We give thanks with food. Why would you sacrifice that to drink a protein shake for every meal? Yes, you may be prescribed shakes in your pre surgical diet and you will be prescribed them for usually 2 weeks after surgery. The pre surgery shakes are to increase your weight loss to improve your surgical success odds & to shrink your liver so the surgeon can see the surgical field more easily. Post surgery it’s to support your healing & not strain your digestive system (remember all those sutures & stables holding it together). Short term reliance on shakes. The goals of the surgery include you changing your relationship with food and establishing a healthy, nutritionally dense, sustainable way of eating. Drinking shakes for any extended period of time is simply not sustainable. It’s not nutritionally sound, only gives more power to cravings, creates new bad relationships with food and will highly likely result in weight regain & poor health. Key word here is supplement. If you are struggling to get your protein in via the real food you eat, sure a protein shake can be beneficial as a supplement to your earring. Same with any vitamin or supplement. If your body is lacking in specific vitamin or minerals, sure take a supplement but they should never be what you totally rely on to get the nutrients your body needs to function unless you have a specific medical condition that means you can not eat real, solid food. I never touched another shake after I began purées (start of week 3). My goal was always to get all the nutrients I needed through real food. And I do. I don’t even take vitamins now (except in winter when I have a dip in my vitamin D - I feel the cold so hibernate in winter & rug up if I have to go out so little sunlight for me then). Ask your nutritionalist, surgeon & GP. I bet they agree with all of us. -
One week post op and feeling scared about never having favorite foods again
Arabesque replied to Cassafrass83's topic in Gastric Bypass Surgery Forums
Do people eventually incorporate some of their old favourites back into their eating? Yes, they do but how much & how often is always considered. Some work out, find recipes or find alternatives that are healthier, more nutrient dense versions of that food. There are some who can’t eat some of their favourites. For example they may dump on sugar which would rule out ice cream. Or certain foods sit more heavily in their tummy. Like I don’t eat breads, pasta, rice for that reason. And some choose simply not to because of changes they’ve made to eating style. Like I chose to rarely eat sugar & sweet foods. Some develop food sensitivities , lactose seems to be the most common one. For some it passes but for others they just avoid it by selecting lactose free or plant-based alternatives. Do I eat some of what I would consider less better/healthy favourites? Sure. I had Chinese takeaway last weekend just no rice and braised chicken not battered & deep fried. Earlier this year we had fish & chips so I ordered grilled fish & salad. So I try to make better choices in those situations. You know you best and if consuming those old favourites will lead you back down a path of excess & regain or not. Or if you can manage your consumption. Of course you may discover new favourite foods along the way & your old favourites may not have the same old pull they did. All the best. PS: You’re going through a very stressful time (emotionally & physically). If you were someone who ate to sooth & comfort yourself during times of turmoil, you may find your craving for those old favourites much stronger. Remind yourself why you're doing this. Do something to distract yourself. And remember it does get easier as you progress. PPS: Check out the food before & after thread to see some of the foods people eat. Note how far post surgery they are, their portion sizes & how often they eat certain foods. -
Someone tell me this is going to be possible
ShoppGirl replied to Adam B.'s topic in POST-Operation Weight Loss Surgery Q&A
I didn’t have band either, but I had the sleeve and gained it all back. My surgeon explained that obesity is very complex and for many people the sleeve is great and it’s less risk so they go with it when they think it is appropriate but it does not offer the same metabolic changes as the bypass or the SADI (which is what I revised to) that some people need in order to be successful. I believe the Lap band offers even less metabolic changes than the sleeve, if any. Basically with these surgeries mostly everyone will lose weight, it’s the keeping it off part that’s difficult. And that’s when you need a surgery with enough of a metabolic change to help you long term. I am 2.5 months out from my revision and I was so worried about the same thing, losing it only to regain again but I can already tell that there is more or a metabolic change. I mean I am exercising!! Me….everyday!! That never would’ve happened without this surgery. Healthy foods taste better and my mood has improved. I have tons of energy and motivation. I never got that with the sleeve. The bypass has been around for a very long time for good reason. For me the sleeve and SADI difference has been night and day. I think you will find a similar experience with your Bypass. -
Just echoing what the two very experienced forum members say above. A regain in 2nd and 3rd year post op is almost the norm. Please try not to worry about it unduly. Your set point is the weight/body composition that your body wants to hover around. The video below is short and might help. Your set point gets lowered drastically by WLS. But - processed food raises it. Eating cleaner keeps it lower. Building muscle mass keeps it lower. Might those be things you can work on a bit? Lots of people focus on cardio and that's brilliant, but lifting weights or using resistance bands (even if you never do cardio!) can add another really significant layer to that. Do you or have you ever tracked your intake? If that has slipped just tracking again might make you aware of what you're taking in and what you're using up. I am saying this as someone just about 3 years post op who regained 16lbs this year. I personally wasn't happy with that because it didn't stop as others' seems to, so I lost 10lbs by strict keto and am now back where I want to be. I had dietary lapses I needed to correct too and am working on that. I had this surgery to stop dieting - I feel like I can tweak things to keep me where I want to be without that and that I've learned a lot by stepping back and really analysing my intake the last few months. Also huge kudos to you for thinking about this with only 9lbs on. Much easier to look at what you can change now, if you even need to do that, rather than further down the line. I wish you the very best.
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17 month post GS and 9lbs gain
catwoman7 replied to fifi0523's topic in Gastric Sleeve Surgery Forums
as usual, I agree with everything Arabesque said. A 10-20 lb bounce back regain is very common after you hit your lowest weight. It's your body settling in to where it's comfortable. You can always lose it again if you really work at it - although if that new weight IS your body's new "set point". it'll be a challenge to get back down there and stay there - but it's not impossible.
