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Lustig et al. Potatoes not Prozac. All sorts of interesting theories and contradictions. I'm stepping back here and looking at my reaction to you. I can trace the roots of mine - it's fear and the old triggers of being told off/disapproved of. You will have your own perspective. I'd like to stop discussing it with you now though please. If it turns out that it was the thin end of a wedge of devil's food cake I'll be sure to come back and invite you to say told you so. But I'm hoping I'll navigate myself through this stage by creating some helpful rules for myself and being ready to change them to no refined sugar or flour etc at all if I feel it's necessary. Alcohol and sugar are chemically very alike but it's a lot easier to figure out what is and isn't booze eg the sugar in an apple v the sugar in a piece of 80% dark chocolate.(both things I've never ever binged on!) Best of luck to you. May you soon be skinny chick!

I understand that. I'm sorry my tone felt derogatory. It honestly was no different the day I typed it to now. You should seriously Google the sugar/alcoholism connection. I would seriously disagree with your assertions. This has to do with how the brain lights up in the pleasure centers and dopamine receptors rather than liver metabolism...

I had no problem with your dissent it was the tone. The point of the Livingston stuff is to create rules. I wouldn't try to have one drink. I have a total of 28 years of sobriety under my belt now and I get that. And sugar is not alcohol. I can abstain entirely from alcohol but sugar is rather different. For example whether it's fructose in its natural form in fruit, or dried or refined. I haven't yet made the decision about refined sugar: I am in the process of doing so. The comments about being ill were to explain what feels like an over reaction on my part to your comments. Good luck on your own journey. I had no granola btw I had nakd bites which are made from dates and nuts. 10g worth. So thanks for the hugs. Tone doesn't come out in mails. I don't expect agreement but I expect people to disagree in a way that doesn't denigrate or undermine.

Ok, so of course we're all entitled to our opinions. And if you weren't here inviting our opinions, then what? If you post here or anywhere, surely you must be prepared for descent as well as people who pat your back and tell you you're making great decisions? I don't get that, honestly. Here is why I think this has danger all over it. This is your treat--roughly. (But since this isn't happening once every so often and appears to be happening daily, maybe you should just call it what it is: dessert. You are a recovering alcoholic. I have enough alcoholics recovering or otherwise in my family who've been there and done that, printed the t-shirt with the 12 steps...who will bold faced tell you: sugar is as sugar does. Doesn't matter if you're drinking it or seeking it out to eat it. And that need will build. It's like wrestling with a siren. You won't be content eating it now and then, or every day. Pretty soon it evolves to eating it preferentially for a meal in addition to dessert cuz it's easy and IT HAS PROTEIN! And it's easy. And tastes great. And IT HAS PROTEIN!!! You admit that you are under goal (congrats again, btw) and have wiggle room to experiment with fire swallowing once more. Well, that is a painful thing to watch from an outsider looking on. Can you succeed and only have a "taste" or a swallow? Maybe. But our chemistries as addicts don't really change so much. The propensity and RISK is hugely more than someone who does not share the addictive nature. Here's are some links about the connection between sugar and alcoholism/cravings: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20648910 https://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/stories/new-study-finds-link-between-a-sugar-cravings-and-alcoholism https://wellnessretreatrecovery.com/sugar-and-dopamine-link-sweets-addiction/ (I could go on...but why?) Again, you're entitled to live your life as you see fit. I agree you have that right. But coming here expecting that only those people who agree with you can post to your thread is not a logical expectation. I do not even begin to think that everyone will agree with me, or even like me--for that matter. But if I see new clothes on the emperor and it's really just him nekkidy...I'd appreciate someone telling me. I would tell them the king is nekkid. (And I think learning to make low carb sugar free treats is a much better choice, BUT it's still dancing with fire for the alcoholic who MUST have sugar or sweets or die--unless they totally kick it.) Again, I'm giving my opinion that is probably not popular. But you are free to do as you want as an adult. So I'm not judging you and finding you lacking personally. But your actions are questionable from my perspective. And sorry your sick, xyz, feeling down, fill in the blank...none of those things actually figure into the equation--instead they are rationalizations for the choices you're making. So EVEN you don't believe they are good healthy choices for you. But I am sorry you're sick and feeling blue. That sucks. ((hugs))

One thing I've noticed reading this board for a while, is that we've all got a lot of valuable insight. Some amazing success stories here. Some amazing works in progress. Really good people with some terrific advice. But we all have a lot of prejudices, too, about what works and what doesn't, and what would really help people if they only listened! LOL And there is nothing quite like being on a stall, or being hungry, or learning to cope without your favorite lifelong coping mechanism....to make you grouchy and indignant about why people stubbornly won't listen. Can we agree that not even the doctors have this crap figured out to any kind of consensus? Some of us have had terrific success with eating keto. Some of us eat a buttload of carbs and do great. Some of us are exercise maniacs. Some of us are working hard to get to 5000 steps a day. Some of us won't touch a taboo empty calorie treat food...because it's a slippery slope that shouldn't be tempted. Some of us feel the need to master eating taboo foods in moderation to prove that we are in control and have "conquered" food. Some of us eat 600 calories a day. Some of us eat 1200 a day. Some of us are ok with moderately consuming alcohol. Some of us are not. Some of us are horrified by artificial sweeteners. Some of us use them by the boatload. And here's the really shocking part: People in BOTH CAMPS on all of these points...have been doing really well. How cool is that? The more I listen to all the different stories, the more convinced I am that there are a LOT of ways up this mountain. (Also cool!) Here's another interesting question... What's success? For some folks, success is having a low normal BMI, and being an athlete. For some folks, success is fitting a certain size, looking a certain way, feeling attractive, getting perfect plastics and looking like a model at the end. For some folks, success is hitting some other goal. Being able to fit in an airplane seat, Being able to play with kids and be active. For some folks, success is getting diabetes and blood pressure and other health concerns under control. For some folks, success is weighing under 200 pounds and not sweating it much beyond that. For some folks, success is being mobile, being independent, going back to work, and being able to take care of themselves. There are a lot of different versions of what success looks like. And not everyone's gonna want the same thing. What your group of doctors says....I guarantee you....will not be anything like what another group of doctors says. There are no hard fast answers about what works and what doesn't. What we've got...are a lot of valuable personal experiences with a LOT of different programs. All worth sharing. But no one has THE answer for everyone:) Sometimes I hear....but what about the newbies? Don't we owe it to them to set a good example? No, we really don't. We owe them our honesty. And we owe them the credit they deserve...to do their homework, read a LOT of stuff, consider all the various opinions about everything.... and figure out what they believe and what works for them:) Just my $.02 Opinions...as always....will vary:)

This! The 100 lb weight loss has much more of an effect than the sleeve surgery. I drank 3 weeks post op, daily for a week. I found I had no taste for it, and therefore drank slowly and didn't finish my drinks. I never even felt buzzed. But I have a high tolerance, and I'm sure my weight is a big part of that. What it did do is sabotage my wight loss for that week. With the alcohol I averaged 700 cals, but managed to gain 2 lbs that week. So the weight gain has made me swear off drinking until I get near my goal!

No real issues for me. I believe 90% of alcohol is metabolized in the intestine, not the stomach. I think you will find you will not physically be able to drink as much, which limits how easily you can get drunk. I have had beer, wine, mixed drinks and shots all with no issues or perceivable difference (although with an 'empty' stomach I do think I feel the effects a bit sooner). Enjoy.

I waited 5 months to have a drink and when i did I had vodka! I drank shots and followed it with crystal light I may have gone over board a tad.... but it was my birthday I had fun HOWEVER... the next three days I felt hung over and I felt guilty for drinking because all I could think about was carbs carbs sugar and hurting my liver and my spouse said I was trying to shove food in my mouth... I never want to be fat again so I decided alcohol is not for me I use to drink a lot in college and I am just worried about waking up that LiL monster and ruining all that I have worked hard for!

I’ve been alcohol free for a year now. I’m planning on meeting up with some friends after work tomorrow and I plan on having a drink. I’ve read other posts about drinking after surgery but don’t remember seeing where anyone said how fast or hard the alcohol will hit you. I don’t plan on driving at all but I also don’t want to look like a blathering idiot after half a glass of wine. Any info someone can pass on from their experiences I would greatly appreciate. [emoji16]

So sorry you feel like that and a little puzzled. I've read a lot of vets stories too and am working on adding high protein stuff and factoring in treats. I watch the scales carefully, had baked fish n veg for supper and am very aware of my food issues. Also aware that they are beginning to make themselves felt again and sharing because it helps and it's all very new. Flaunting and kerosene... As a recovering alcoholic those are hard things to hear... Maybe I'm floating in that African river again. I'm going to email my dietician again who disappeared at around two months post op - I've only had one meeting with her so I'm not sure what I should be doing. I work with someone who's two years post sleeve. She drinks wine, doesn't get her protein in and regularly eats cake but is doing ok. I worry watching her so I know what you're getting at. I've got the flu just now. Feeling v emotional and struggling to hear the critism. I'm doing my best. It's been a long hard journey, there's other life stuff happening and I'm looking to do this the best I can. And not sure what's so terrible at looking for high protein low carb stuff I can eat safely in small portions... My sundae thing had 150 cals and 6.5g protein. Sugars may be a bit high but it seems to me it was an effort at combining nutrition and taste... So I'm hearing your response and some anger there and feel a little hurt. This forum had felt like a safe place and now I'm feeling that I ought not share my experience. Would be pleased to hear advice from others at a similar place to me... Dec 16 bypass, 230 hw 210 SW 118 CW. 5'4". We're all here because we want to win it and nothings scares me more than regain.

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Web MD isn't a Dr and if you're using it for something other than what it's intended for, that's addict behavior. Most of us didn't get here by not being an addict of some kind. Nowhere does it say it's used for trouble sleeping. It says it helps by you falling asleep. Your brain is transmitted wrong signals. It's not healthy to take medication for something is not intended for. Any drug and alcohol counselor will tell recovering addicts and alcoholics to stay away from it. Not being able to sleep isn't an allergic reaction. The melatonin in your body has been changed somehow, more than likely from a big change such as surgery. Sent from my Z983 using BariatricPal mobile app

I get ya. Addiction has many faces. I probably have lots of addictions. I think if I squinted real hard, I could become an alcoholic. But thankfully God stopped me up short of that one. LOL, I would like to become addicted to yoga or something...like, um, eating sprouted microgreens perhaps? Yeah. Sigh, sometimes it gets old. Sometimes we slip. Sometimes there's a bus. But I do think that for me at least, when I'm my most defensive is when the subject is the MOST IMPORTANT for me. And warning bells go off in my head that hey, here's a very painful opportunity to change my thoughts/behaviors/feelings/emotions. I'm a big believer in "I think therefore I feel."

Oh and as a recovering alcoholic for 90% of my adult life 28/ 32 years. One four year relapse six years ago, I know all bout the denial and justification. And in I’m ready to hear people say listen to yourself. I just much prefer when the do it with some kindness as you have done. Enough people in life who’ll tell me what a hames I’ve made of it and how defective I am as a human being. It’s never made me anything but angry and more self self destructive.. and tough love generally requires a preexisting relationship and trust. But anyway, thank you, you’ve got me thinking about it in a positive way [emoji41]

In my case, just a select few. Such surgery here (in Australia) is still widely regarded as some form of cheating ... AND I can well do without the 5h1t of pointless debates/arguments with opinionated ignoramuses who have not lived my last quarter of a century of yo-yo dieting and weight-loss fails. My wife knows. My siblings know. My daughter and son-in-law know. In fact, my son-in-law is my inspiration and catalyst for gastric sleeving. He was done in 2015 ... a man of 185cm (6feet, 2inches) who "fell" from 208kg to 99kg after his own gastric-sleeve. (460 pounds to 219 pounds). Yes ... I have had the opportunity to eat better SMALLER quantities and make purposeful progress. I was in a union job that required a lot of "socialising" ... I averaged about 35 alcoholic drinks per week in summer and about 26-28 per week in winter for 18 years. I now confine myself to one beer and three wines per week. Even today, I went for my usual St Patrick's day lunch and ordered a half-pint of Guinness (as opposed to nearly thirty years of one or two pints with lunch). I made it just past half-way down my half-pint before I just put the glass down and walked away ... I had no room after my grilled fish piece and salad to fit any more Guinness.

That's my thoughts too. My unhealthy relationship with food. I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict and apparently I suck at moderation. It's all our nothing. I have a huge network of support and the closer I get to my day, the more excited I am. We got this!! Sent from my Z983 using BariatricPal mobile app

I eat out once a week. I will usually order the soup. I Especially like potato soups and will bring some real bacon bits to add in extra protein. You can also order off the side menu or order eggs. I always check out the menu online before I go to see if there is something I can eat. Eating out 3 times a week is likely why you need the surgery. Restaurant food is fattening. I would try to cut back on eating out and instead find something else to do that you enjoy with your wife. Live music (careful not to replace food with alcohol though), people watching. walks downtown or in a nice park, golfing, etc.

Hi, I have recently asked my doctor about weight loss surgery after having struggled with my weight for around 10 years. I have tried seeing several dieticians, Weight Watchers, calorie counting, medication etc and nothing seems to have really worked (I either lose only a couple of pounds or I lose quite a bit in a short space of time and then gain that back and more). According to the specialist I see in London, my non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, borderline glucose intolerance and insulin resistance makes it harder for me to lose weight, it isn't an excuse but it means I have to work twice as hard to burn off whatever I eat. However, my liver would get better if I lost weight, so weight loss surgery seems like the only option now. I have a BMI of 43 and, from what I have told my doctor, she agrees and will refer me once she has checked over my notes (she has only become my GP recently). However, I am worried I won't be approved. As I'm in the UK, my only real choice is the NHS, and they say a BMI of 35 with comorbidities or just a BMI of 40 means you fit the criteria. Unfortunately, the NHS has been getting stricter recently due to lack of funding and I have heard many horror stories about it, so I'm really worried I won't be approved. I am also young, I will be 21 in August, and I just get a feeling that people will think I'm not old enough to make this decision. Does liver disease count as a comorbidity? Has anyone else had any experience with the NHS?

My program requires 60-90 grams of protein per day. 64 ounces of water (or non caloric liquid). It can be very difficult to get your liquid in, so keep in mind that you can always add some type of flavor to make it easier to drink. It is common for WLS patients to develop nausea to plain water after surgery. I recommend crystal light, caffeine free tea, Stur drops, or even fruit infused water. Stay away from the following foods: white breads, pasta, fried food, caloric beverages, carbonation, alcohol (for min. 6 months), and foods with processed and refined sugar. Getting in at least 30 minutes of exercise 5-7 days per week. Vitamins- I attached a guide that lists what the ASMBS recommends for a daily intake. I achieve this by taking a bariatric vitamin and I also supplement extra Vitamin D/Calcium and biotin. Also, my program is BIG about only eating 3 meals a day, with 1 snack if needed. So it is important to eat your protein first, then your non-starchy vegetable, and if you have room... a fruit OR starch can be incorporated 1 time daily. I eat approximately a 1/2 cup per meal, sometimes a up to a cup if it is soup. BariLifeVitaminGuidesm.pdf

I don’t get out much but I still enjoy the company of the people and the tastes of the few bites I eat. I understand from the restaurant’s Point of view that they need to charge what they charge, and a good restaurant doesn’t make $ on their food but the alcohol, which I don’t drink, so I owe them. Plus, we went to a wonderful expensive steakhouse recently and I took my half steak home and had a wonderful meal the next day. at a frequented cheaper place, they will work with you. Tell them (if you aren’t with people who don’t know) about your WLS. I have made buddies with waitresses this way. One Mexican place we go to will just make me a salsa sized dish of beans with melted cheese served with jalapeños, charge me a pittance, and I’m so happy.

Yes, I am eating fewer than about 20g net per day from diet alone--mostly in the low teens. My vitamins which are surgeon approved, gives about 12g of carbs with 10g of those being sugar alcohols/fiber. Celebrate Bariatric Vits.

Happy fourth birthday to my LapBand! It’s changed my life. Am I at my goal weight? No. But I am 107 pounds less than I was before surgery, and absolutely everything has changed. My blood pressure is under control. My knees don’t hurt as much. I’m off of all NSAIDs and painkillers. No more s leep apnea. Cholesterol normal. Blood sugar normal. I can walk for miles. I can take the stairs. I can wear normal shoes. My closet has a much narrower range of sizes, and I wear nearly everything in it. I own a pretty bathing suit and I swim in public. When I stopped overeating I began to feel my previously numbed feelings. I divorced my emotionally abusive husband. I put down all alcohol and p ills. I had 2-1/2 years of therapy. I joined self help groups, and still go. I bought a new house and started over. Last summer I got brave and started online dating. (Meeting a new fella tonight.) Would I do it all again? In a heartbeat. Does the LapBand fix my brain? Heck no. This is still hard work and it always will be. But it does help me physically. I’m not hungry all the time. With that hunger gone, I can more effectively work on the mental and emotional issues that drive me to f ood. To all newbies, I just want to say I’m a happy bander. Good luck to all of you.

Day 21 - Week 3 Post Op - 212lbs (-10.4lbs from SW of 222.4lbs) Good morning. So today is one of the milestones: Week 3 Post Op. Just wanted to make a couple of key observations and I will probably post my food log for a tiny bit. It appears that the 3 week "stall" is alive and well perhaps? For the last 2 days, there really has been little scale love. It's been bouncing around between the same half pound--up and down. Yesterday I was up to 212.2lbs and today I'm back down to 212lbs. LOL. I realize that can be simple scale fluctuation. No scale is that accurate--even Tanita. I do have a slight feeling that all the sugar alcohols from my vitamins along with the 60cals/day that they provide is crazy making. And they may also contribute to the scale stuff. But I'm just gonna document and wait it out. It's not as if I have much option. LOL. I see the surgeon next week, and then see the RD right behind that appt. So I will def ask. The other thing that bothers me is the lack of consensus about volume. I continue to fear that eating too much volume, too early will stretch out my anastamoses. Fact or crap? No idea. But from 5 different references, each gives a different volume amount for 3 weeks. My RD (verbally at 3 weeks): 1/4c working up to 1/2c food + binder with diet--1-2oz protein, 1/4c soft veg or soft fruit, 1/4c starch; 3 meals per day; 2-3 snacks optional--1/4c-1/2c food depending on slider nature--1oz prot + soft fruit **This equals: 1/4-1/2c protein + 1/4c veg + 1/4c starch or fruit = 3/4-1c of food! . My Hospital RD (written diet) still alternates protein supplements with 6oz yogurt with a meal. Meal consists of 1oz protein + 1/4c soft veg on an alternating schedule. **This equals: 1/4 protein + 1/4c veg = 1/2c of food! . My Surgeon (verbally at beginning at 2 weeks) may advance to soft, fork tender foods stage, eating to tolerance 1-2oz protein + a couple bites of veg + a bite or 2 of soft fruits or starch. **So that's about 1/2c of food at 3 meals. (Plus I can have a snack.) . Obesity Coverage Website (thanks @Apple203)-Soft mechanical diet that actually per them begins week 4-5: (click to enlarge it) **This fluctuates between 1/4-1c of food per meal. . Big Ward: The doctor made a comment on I think Episode 7 that said up until about 3 months, you will be eating 1/4c of food at a time. . Dilemma: I don't really feel any restriction at 1/4cup. I can gulp (about 2-4 gulps before feeling a little discomfort and stimulation to slow down liquids). I can easily eat 1 large egg in less than 5 minutes! I do feel about 3 hours of satiety from 1/2-1c of food. But I'm only 3 weeks out!!!! I can eat this meal easily in 20 minutes: 2oz pan sauteed chicken tender=1/2 cup of food! 1oz brown gravy=1/8cup of food 1/4c smashed roasted cauliflower=1/4cup of food 1/2oz green beans=1/8cup of food This totals nearly 1 cup of food by volume!!!! . I can eat this meal easily in 15 minutes: 3oz Greek yogurt 3oz 2% cottage cheese 4g peanut butter slim powder 1/8c applesauce or 30g lite canned peaches . I just don't know if I need to MAKE myself limit to 1oz=1/4c of protein as per the example in Obesity Coverage image. Or do I go ahead and advance THIS SOON to 2oz per meal? I limited food to 1oz protein per meal yesterday and felt hungry all day. My meals only lasted me about an hour or two. Is it too early for me to feel satiety? Or do I have one of those cases where the surgery didn't help my hunger level? Do I have one of those stomachs that can handle eating more? I'm so scared of this! Yes, I'm having the crazies this morning. LOL. I just flat out don't know what to do. And it looks like the 3 weeks stall is here.

My surgeon has a very strong aversion to drinking alcohol. He spoke at one of our support group meetings about how it has been proven that weight loss surgery patients have a significantly increased risk of developing other addictions. If you've "medicated" yourself with food and can no longer do that, it's natural for some people to look for new "medication", be it alcohol, drugs, shopping, etc. It has kind of made me hyper-aware. You are so incredibly strong to share your story and it's inspirational that you chose to do this in an effort to help other people who may be facing the same struggle. THIS is what a support group page should be. Thank you and very best wishes for full recovery!

I tried alcohol for the first time since surgery last week. One normal-sized vodka and lemonade, mostly vodka, and it got me FUCKED. UP. Saturday night I had some wine with dinner and that went much better. I am tolerating most things. Yesterday I had sausage, egg, and cheese on a garlic bagel and that came right up. I though that would be better than cream cheese on a bagel; guess not!