~Pam~

I'm a little confused by this statement, Carlene. Did you mean to type that it's impossible for a BELIEVER (not a non-believer) to commit the unpardonable sin? There is only one unpardonable sin and that is REJECTING Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. If you are a believer, you would be ACCEPTING Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Unless our definitions of "believer" is slightly different. I'm thinking of "believer" as in a Christian or Messianic Jew, who also accepts Jesus as their Savior. It's true that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ (like someone who grew up in the remote jungles of Africa for example), cannot commit the unpardonable sin because they never heard of Jesus Christ. If you've never heard of him, you can't reject him! So in that sense, I definitely agree. But if you know about Jesus and CHOOSE to reject him, then that is unpardonable. I do completely agree though that a person cannot "accidently" commit this sin. Billy Graham's site explains this pretty well: The point for us is that if we have received Jesus as our Savior and Lord, we have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit; we have accepted His witness. One study Bible explains it as follows: "To commit this sin one must consciously, persistently, deliberately, and maliciously reject the testimony of the Spirit to the deity and saving power of the Lord Jesus. If a person keeps doing that until death, there is no hope of forgiveness and eternal life in heaven. Once again, the unpardonable sin is not some particularly grievous sin committed by a Christian before or after accepting Christ, nor is it thinking or saying something terrible about the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is deliberately resisting the Holy Spirit's witness and invitation to turn to Jesus until death ends all opportunity.

Oh I do completely agree that the definitions of rape have changed from ancient to modern times...absolutely they have. But even so, the Old Testament does speak against rape. For example, in Deuteronomy 22:25-28, it says “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her”. My point is, just because Jesus didn’t confirm certain Old Testament Scriptures in the New Testament, doesn’t mean that he didn’t fully and completely agree with them. They are the Word of God after all. As for the early churches opinions on abortion, and for any other major doctrine or moral issue for that matter, I believe that the “purest” writings are those that were written as close to Jesus’ time on earth as possible. In truth, I don’t care if a Catholic Pope declared that abortion was fine several hundred years…or in the case of the Pope you are referring to, over 1,200 years…after Jesus taught here on earth. I care what Jesus’ Apostles said though, as they were actually taught by Jesus Himself. I also care what the disciples that studied under the Apostles taught too…and even the ones that studied under those men. In other words, the teachings of the early Christian church. All of those teachings say abortion is a sin. Let’s review some of these writings: The Didache (also known as "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles"): "Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion." (2:2) It also says that "The Way of Death is filled with people who are...murderers of children and abortionists of God's creatures." (5:1-2) Letter of Barnabas (Apostle of Jesus): “Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born." The Apocalypse of Peter (Apostle of Jesus): "I saw a gorge in which the discharge and excrement of the tortured ran down and became like a lake. There sat women, and the discharge came up to their throats; and opposite them sat many children, who were born prematurely, weeping. And from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women on the eyes. These were those who...procured abortions." Petition to Emperor Marcus Aurelius: "We say that women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God. For the same person, would not regard the child in the womb as a living being and therefore an object of God's care and then kill it.... But we are altogether consistent in our conduct. We obey reason and do not override it." Tertullian (Apology 9:6): For us [Christians] we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter when you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one: you have the fruit already in the seed." Clement of Alexandria (Paedagogus 2): "Our whole life can go on in observation of the laws of nature, if we gain dominion over our desires from the beginning and if we do not kill, by various means of a perverse art, the human offspring, born according to the designs of divine providence; for these women who, if order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which expel the child completely dead, abort at the same time their own human feelings." Tertullian: “…we are not permitted, since murder has been prohibited to us once and for all, even to destroy ...the fetus in the womb. It makes no difference whether one destroys a life that has already been born or one that is in the process of birth.” St. Hippolytus ("Refutation of all Heresies" 9:7): "Reputed believes began to resort to drugs for producing Sterility and to gird themselves round, so as to expel what was conceived on account of their not wanting to have a child either by a slave or by any paltry fellow, for the sake of their family and excessive wealth. Behold, into how great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by inculcating adultery and murder at the same time." (I have a ton of excerpts from the Third Century too, if anyone is interested…but they are all along the exact same lines as above). But you know what, it's not actually these teachings that have made me pro-life. In fact, I was pro-life before I read them. I just really feel it in my heart that it's wrong to kill an unborn child. If this issue was truly about JUST a woman's own body, then I wouldn't care what she did. But in the case of an abortion, we are not just talking about the woman's body, we are talking about an innocent little baby's body too. I don't expect you ever to agree with me, and that's fine, but I will continue to speak out against abortion in case it changes just one girl's mind one day and she gives her baby a chance at life that the little one might not have otherwise had.

Sue, that article is not accurate. If you truly want to know what Jesus thinks about abortion, why don’t we go back to the writings of the early Christian church in the First Century (rather than writings several hundred years later)? And for that matter, why don’t we also go back and read the writings of early JEWISH writers as well? Since Jesus was indeed raised a Jew, we will start with the writings of the famous early-century historian Flavius Josephus (since anyone who has an interest in early religious theology would definitely recognize his name). For those of you who aren’t familiar with Josephus, he was a very well-known and highly respected early-century JEWISH historian. This is what he wrote about abortion,“The (Jewish) law, moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring, and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten, or to destroy it afterward; and if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child, by destroying a living creature, and diminishing humankind.” I don’t think that could be any clearer! Now for the writings of the very early-Christian church (also dating back to the First Century). In the Didache, it states “Thou shalt not slay thy child by abortion, nor kill that which is begotten". And in the Epistle of Barnabas (an Apostle of Christ), it states “Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born." As for it not being mentioned in the New Testament, well neither is RAPE! Surely you don’t believe Jesus would condone the raping of a woman just because it’s not specifically mentioned in the New Testament! Do you see what I’m getting at? So, again I say with much confidence, Jesus would NOT advocate the killing of an unborn child.

Oh my gosh, that's horrific!!!! And heart-breaking!!! And infuriating for that matter!

VERY interesting point!!!

Oh of course! I don't expect someone who compares God to the "Tooth Fairy", to value the Holy Bible. But I almost had a heart attack when I read that someone actually thought that Jesus would condone abortion! I had to set the record straight. I was just floored by the inaccuracy of that statement!

Oh my goodness, don't even try to suggest that Jesus would agree with abortion! Jesus followed the Word of God (obviously!) and the Bible calls an unborn baby a LIFE. It even says that if someone causes injury to a pregnant women and causes her unborn baby to die, that that person is to be held accountable for that unborn baby's LIFE. If he causes the death of both the mother and her unborn baby, he is to be held accountable for BOTH the life of the mother and the LIFE of the unborn baby that was killed. At no time does the Bible say that that unborn baby had to be "viable" outside her body...or that the unborn baby has to be X number of weeks old...it makes NO distinction between a fetus or a "viable" baby...or even an embryo, for that matter! It simply calls the unborn baby a LIFE.

But why should the pre-born baby be punished and killed?

Actually, you're right...I shouldn't generalize. Although I do consider abortion a selfish choice in many cases (and it's okay if we have to agree to disagree on that point), it's not always a "convenient" choice. I do realize that it's a very, very hard decision for some mothers. I understand how scared many of them had to have been to feel like they needed to make that decision. I think that's one of the problems with "abortion on demand". Often times these girls are so scared that they sometimes make "rash" decisions to abort their child, without really understanding the consequences of their decision. A dear friend of mine, long before we met each other, had an abortion when she was younger because she was scared that her family would be disappointed and angry with her. She actually believed that a fetus was just a "clump of cells" and didn't think of it as a baby. It wasn't until years later, when she saw a picture of an actual aborted baby at a similar gestational age and realized that it actually looked like a "real" baby in every way, that she fully realized what she did. It did not look like the "clump of cells" she thought it did, by any stretch of the imagination. It had little fingers, and little toes and every other little part of an "real" baby (very similar to a very premature baby). It was then that she realized that she killed an actual baby...HER baby. She sunk into a deep, deep depression and hated herself for what she had done. She was angry too at the clinic who never showed her these pictures before she had the abortion. She said they made it "easy" to have an abortion. I think all abortion clinics should have the responsibility to fully inform a mother of what she's about to do by showing her actual pictures of pre-born babies that are at a similar gestational age of the baby about to be aborted, so the mothers make a fully informed decision. She never would have had an abortion if she knew that beforehand. For that matter, she is very pro-life now. She received no "real" counselling either. I also think the abortion rate overall would be dramatically reduced with both more education and counselling, when the girls are faced with this life-changing decision. So for cases like these, obviously I have great compassion for these poor girls. The ones that were so scared and didn't know where to turn I mean. So often they regret their decision. :cry The woman I had in mind though when I made my comment about "convenience", was a women here that has already had 8 ABORTIONS! EIGHT!!! Last I heard she was pregnant AGAIN!!! So by now, the number is probably NINE! :welldone2: She refuses to go on the pill because it "messes up her body" and refuses to use condoms because it "lessens the sensation" of sex. So instead of closing her legs or Heaven forbid, using a condom...she uses abortion as her "birth control" method. :success1: Anyway, that's the frame of mind I was in when I was talking about abortion being "convenient" rather than carrying the child to term and putting it up for adoption. I was thinking more about the "Comfort Room" idea too that someone mentioned earlier and realized that it probably would be greatly needed after all, because so many women do regret their decision immediately afterwards and feel a great sense of loss. I doubt the woman with 8 (or 9 now) abortions needs a Comfort Room, but it think it would be helpful for a great deal of women. But more so, education and counselling is needed to make a fully informed decision.

Thanks everyone!!! I'm so excited!!! :grouphug:

Just over a year ago. It was supposed to be a 1 1/2 - 2 year wait but I got in on a cancellation! :grouphug:

Most definitely! Sadly, that's not always the case though. :cry

Sadly, that's often true! I know of an abortion clinic that simply threw the aborted babies into a trash can (literally!) before there was a tremendous public outcry about it! I'm assuming they must have cremated them afterwards (or however they dispose of unborn babies bodies) but still throwing them away like that is just sick. Now, after the public outcry, they treat their little bodies with more respect and follow official procedures, etc. but the whole issue was horribly disturbing! This was a while ago now, so hopefully there are standard procedures that they all have to follow now. As for "Comfort Rooms", I can see them being used for the poor parents who lost their child by miscarriage though. That would be so heart-breaking. I'm not sure if I understand the concept of Comfort Rooms though for someone who voluntarily aborted their baby, but if there is a need for them, then all clinics should have them available.

Exactly, I agree! If you voluntarily go for an abortion (with a live fetus of course), YOU killed your baby...not God, not nature...YOU. Is it a choice? Legally, yes. But it's the height of selfishness. It's an extremely selfish "choice" to kill your baby for your own "convenience". Someone said that it's sometimes easier on the mother to kill her unborn child rather than give it up for adoption. Again, that's the height of selfishness. Chances are the baby would have liked to live!

Well I'm not really sure if I'm a "fundamentalist" or not, but I'd be happy to answer your questions. I guess just to clarify, I'm a fundamentalist Christian in the sense that I believe that the Bible is the inherent Word of God and I believe that Christians are to follow Christ's teachings in the Bible as closely as possible. But I'm most certainly not a fundamentalist as in an "extremist" or "radical" Christian though, by any stretch of the imagination (which actually isn't the accurate definition of "fundamentalist"). Do I agree with the theology of other religions? No. But do I respect other people's religious beliefs? Yes. A person's religious beliefs are deeply, deeply personal to them and I would never purposely show disrespect to their most sacred beliefs. And I most definitely would never, ever show as much disrespect towards any other religion as has been shown towards Christians in this thread. I also would never pick out examples of "extremist" or "radical" behavior by members of other religious groups and imply in anyway that it represents the vast majority of people practicing that religion either. As for symbols of other faiths...am I offended if I see a Jewish menorah (those beautiful candelabras that they light during Hanukkah) displayed during the holidays (for example)? No, of course not. Our local mall used to have a banner over their doors that said "Happy Hanukkah and Merry Christmas!". That was fine with me too. And if a Muslim store clerk put a sign up that said "Have a blessed Ramadan", that would be fine too. We all have equal rights to Celebrate our own religious holidays (as we should!).

Oh wow, I had no idea so much violence occured from the pro-choice side! :xena_banana: I had no idea!! It said that 2005 was the worst year with pro-choicers killing 77 people, including 28 pregnant women (AND THEIR 28 WANTED PRE-BORN BABIES!!!) and 8 CHILDREN!!! :cry That's so horrible! I really had no clue! I have heard of pro-choicers attacking pro-lifers during peaceful protests of course, but I had no clue the numbers were that high (especially just in one year!). How horribly sad! I had no idea that some attackers RAPED the pro-life women too! :girl_hug: I really am stunned. Wow, I guess there is violence on both sides of the issue huh? :girl_hug:

Oh my...that helps me understand your position much better. Although I can never personally agree to abortion as a means of managing birth rates (which was one of the measures mentioned), perhaps future immigration rates need to be looked at and possibly reduced. We don't really have that problem up here in Canada, epecially up North and in the Prairies. Instead we don't have enough people! Maybe you should send some of your extra people up here, with big winter parkas (it's cold up here!)!

For the record, they make me angry too! Although they loudly proclaim they are Christian, they aren't following Christ's teachings. Although Christ would speak out against abortion (since the Bible refers to unborn babies as "life"), for example, he would never bomb an abortion clinic (I can't even comprehend how any "Christian" could justify that). And instead of picketing a gay person's funeral, he would instead be comforting the mourners! Anyone who would intentionally cause others pain in any way, is not following Christ's teachings. And it's hard for us non-extremists (which is the vast majority of Christians!) to sometimes be lumped in with these extremist groups (in general I mean). I never thought you were! :hug: And I'm glad you met some nice Christians tonight...there are a lot of us out there, if I do say so myself! lol :becky: Thank you for clarifying! That was really nice of you! :biggrin1:

This sounds so silly, but I'm so proud of you guys! It IS hard though, isn't it? I've been so hurt by this thread too. Some of the comments that have been directed towards Christians in general have been very unfair and uncalled for. Even when people say that they are not talking about us specifically, they must know that we'd still find those comments very hurtful. But all we can do is control our own responses and hope that they will realize that some of their comments have been very inappropriate and hurtful as well. :hug:

Oh good! Hopefully sherriberri will stop by and say hi then! The waiting lists here are at least getting better now that Dr. Birch has joined Dr. Davey. When I first started this process 3 years ago, I was told that I was looking at a 3-4 year wait (back then I was going the RNY route)!!! :omg: But now it's only supposed to be 1 1/2 - 2 year waiting list. I've been waiting a year so far...no word on a consultation date yet.

Are you going to Toronto to avoid the long waiting lists in Edmonton?

But regardless if it was or not, doesn't actually matter. It was a good point! That doesn't matter though. Yes, people who are anti-Christian WILL persecute us no matter how we behave, that is very true. But what's important here is that CHRIST will know how we behaved. He will see that we chose to have his light shine through us even in times of persecution, rather than ignoring his teachings and attacking others (talking in general here, not you specifically!!). We should never allow other people's inappropriate actions or words dictate how WE should respond to them, kwim? Anyway, just some things to think about. :hug:

You could be quite right though! Their waiting list is long! I've met several people online who had their RNY with Davey/Birch but never anyone who got a Lap Band. I'm starting to wonder if I'm their very first Lap patient or something. *looks around nervously* Anyway, nice to meet you argon! :wave:

Hi Becca! :wave: Your surgery date is sure coming up fast! Who is doing your surgery?

A part of me hesitates to answer this, but I feel that I should. To refer to someone as judgmental, intolerant, disdainful, and close-minded is every bit as inapporpriate as calling someone dumb, illogical, and hateful. When a poster here wrote "If you think you two act like Jesus would have acted, I'd be scared to meet him." Although that comment was NOT directed towards me, it hurt my heart to read that. We are to be lights of the Lord. No one should ever think badly of Christ or his teachings because of OUR actions or words. Although I applaud and respect your passion for Christ, we have to respond to criticism and persecution with the virtues that Christ teaches us...tolerance, love, respect and understanding. If someone is unkind to us, we show them kindness back. Easier said than done, of course...but we need to try. I think it shows a great deal about your true character to even ask this question! Hopefully others will follow your example! :hug: