marjon9

Apparently that would not be a thread killer.

Yeah, that's a tough story. I definitely sympathize on that as well.

Having compassion for those less fortunate does not mean that this is "all some seem to worry about." In fact, this is just a part of the picture. I agree much stronger laws are needed, especially against American employers who make the jobs available (after all, illegal is illegal). But why is there not room for both? And, if there is no room in your heart for compassion for less fortunate individuals, why must you sarcastically belittle those of us who do feel this compassion? Again, you and I want the same thing: Stronger laws. The only difference is, I feel compassion for those less fortunate, and you don't. Why is there not room in your world for people who feel compassion? Why must everyone be as angry as you are? WASaBubble, can I ask you, if your family was suffering, would you cross the border illegally? Please be honest. And I am not asking you to explain how all these illegal aliens have a lot of children in a grand scheme to leech off the United States, or whatever. Please talk about that some other time. I'm just asking you a simple question. If your family was suffering, would you cross the border illegally? I don't know if you have done much travelling, perhaps you have. But when I have travelled I have seen how the average American sucks up a hugely disproportionate share of the earth's available resources. This is an absolutely undeniable fact. We take much more than our share, by a HUGE proportion. I am not advocating feeling guilty about it, or anything like that. I just don't understand why, as we slam the door in the face of all these horrible illegals, why we must do it with anger. Slam the door, yes. But why the anger?

I do agree that we need to have stronger border enforcement, but I also totally share TommyO's feelings of compassion for people who are just trying to find a way to have a decent life. When your kid is hungry it may be too much to ask to require that someone pay meticulous attention to what is "legal" vs. what is "illegal" in getting the kid some food. I know that I would cross the border illegally again and again if I had to. WASaBubble, can you honestly say you'd follow all the rules if your family was suffering? I just don't think so. I also think it is perfectly legitimate to have this feeling of compassion whether or not a person is taking active steps to help people from another country. These are separate issues. Still, I do agree that we need to have tighter border security for a lot of reasons. We can't take care of all the world's poor, and we can't leave the borders open for the next Osama bin Laden. So I totally agree that we need to improve border security. And most important of all, we need to take responsibility for our part in this. People come here because American employers hire them. If there were no jobs, they would stop coming. It's the same with the whole drug problem. Our whole nation is a vacuum cleaner for illegal drugs, yet in our minds it is the evil foreign drug dealers who are the problem. Americans can be such self-centered morons. I guess my key issue in all this is that I believe it misses the mark to shut the border with anger in our hearts towards these people who are trying to find a decent life. Should we shut the border? Yes. But why is it necessary to do it screaming at them that they are "filthy illegals"? Or whatever. I can't bring myself to feel that way toward them. I know I would do the same thing they are doing, and I feel sure that most people on this board would also do what it took to feed their hungry children, legal or not. And I also think it is beside the point to say that many illegal aliens are criminals who really are not even looking for a job, etc. That may be true criminals should be stopped no matter how they entered the country, and the problem with criminal illegal aliens is not where the 12 or 20 million people problems comes from. I grew up in Los Angeles working in the restaurant industry. Most of the dishwasher positions and other janitorial type jobs were filled by illegals from Mexico. A bunch of them usually lived together in apartments in not so great parts of town and they sent most of their money home. Almost all of them were very hard working, cheerful and warm-hearted people. I can tell you it would have been very difficult to find Americans willing to do those jobs. I am not setting forth this example as a way to justify illegal immigration. I support stronger border security. But I think it is unfortunate and unnecessary to close the borders with anger toward the people coming here. There is no reason for all the anger.

Sorry FunnyDuddies, you don't get to be the one who decides who has "poor taste and judgment." You are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is. There is nothing I have done on this forum since day one of my participation that was in poor taste, or inappropriate in any way. You have a right to think otherwise, but it's nothing more than your opinion. You also state that "when asked to clarify" my position I "continued it." So, apparently what you are saying is that I am a lier. That is truly out of line and in bad taste and totally inappropriate. I told you that when you asked me for clarification I thought you were joking. Do you believe I am not telling the truth? Frankly, I still can hardly believe that you actually thought I was advocating the death penalty for Christians. That is what is truly hard to believe. But you insist that your question to me was actually serious, and I take you at your word. But the fact is, when you asked me whether I was truly advocating the death penalty for christians, I thought you were joking, and I responded in kind. I think it is totally inappropriate and in the height of bad taste for you to call me a lier. Frankly, I think you deserve more that a slap on the wrist for that level of inappropriate behavior. I think there is no room on the board for personal attacks. I think you should be banned from the board. (Sound familiar?)

People have different views of what is and is not in "good taste." You have a right to your opinion about what that is, but that does make it into the "truth." I totally disagree with you that I have done anything on this forum that has crossed any "line." If you think I am out of line and not funny, feel free to not read my posts. But it is just sad that you are unwilling to admit how much you enjoy debating people who disagree with you. I know you will stick to your view that you welcome debate, but in my case it's different because I am in "bad taste" and I have "crossed the line." But that is just a cop out. The bottom line is, we just disagree on a lot of things. Anyway, it is because of people like you that this board is fun and interesting for me. So, I say to you, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, Carlene!!! :tea::peace::drum::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

When you asked me if I was serious about killing people because of their religion, I thought you were kidding. It is truly inconceivable to me that anyone thought I was serious. I did not believe your were asking a serious question. I thought you were joking, and I responded in kind. That's the simple truth, believe what you want. And as for your other comments, I simply disagree with you that jokes about the death penalty or anything else are "crossing the line." I don't agree with that. So, if you are offended by jokes that "cross the line," I really do think it would be best if you steer clear of reading my posts. But the truth is, if only you would admit it, is that the most fun you have had on this forum is debating people like me who strongly disagree with you. You can vilify me till the cows come home, I really don't care. In response, I will tell you that I think your presence on this board is great. I disagree with almost everything you say to the core of my soul, which is exactly why I like to debate with you. Yeah, FunnyDuddies!!! I truly am so glad you are here. :rockon: :cheer2: :cheer2: :cheer2: :peace:

I'm so glad he is getting out before his death in prison. That would have been very sad. He's a courageous guy, indeed. Thanks, Jack!

Where in the world does this hostility come from? Why would you take it on as your mission to deny me satisfaction? I have never done anything on this board other than have fun. Would you want everyone to agree with you all the time? All you people attacking me for joking around on this board are just making yourselves look petty and ridiculous. I really feel sorry for you. Regarding my "kill the Christians" post, as you call it, I had no intention at all of having people "rise" to any "bait." I still cannot believe that anyone even noticed it. musicalmomma made a joke. I responded in passing. If you read more to it than that you are absolutely wrong.

gadgetlady think of what you are saying here. Do you really want to challenge me here about the venomous nature of my postings? I don't notice that you are particularly short of venom yourself. I still don't consider you hateful, by the way. But more than anything, I think if you take a step back and think about it, you will realize that you have had most of your fun on this board debating articulate and intelligent people who disagree with you. I'm one of those people. Take a deep breath and think about what we are doing here. We are having fun on a message board. That's it. I know you sense some sort of mob mentality on this thread directed toward me right now, where you think you can gain some points by joining the chorus. But I think you are just making yourself look petty and silly by doing it. And let me say again, I did nothing the least bit inappropriate, hypocritical, or in bad taste here by matching musicalmomma's sarcastic remark with one of my own. There is absolutely nothing wrong with joking about politics, religion, sex, or any other controversial subject. Anyone who does not like that can take a long walk down a one way street, as far as I am concerned. This is always what you are going to get from me. But do I "hate" anybody? Of course not.

I don't mind if you call me tactless. Just understand that my lack of tact is not a matter of unawareness or a lack of understanding of what I am doing. That is not what is going on here. When I push buttons and say things that tend to challenge people or even offend them on occasion, it is always quite deliberate when it is on the rants and raves discussions. You can argue that that is in bad taste or tactless if you wish. I would disagree with you, I think it makes the board fun. But in any event, get used to it. This would be too boring for me if I were not able, on occasion, to be tactless.

I've said this before, but just to be clear, I have absolutely nothing against any person for their religion. Someone who believes in Christ is totally fine with me. I have no hidden or surface animosity toward any Christian, or any person of any religion. The reason I poke fun at "Christians" quite frequently is because certain groups and individuals hold the point of view that they have the right, if not the duty, to tell other people how to live their lives, and indeed, legislate how other people should live their lives. That's the part that is intolarable to me. But even when talking about this topic I do not have genuine bad feelings toward other people on this board. I enjoy lively debate about serious topics, and I enjoy joking about serious topics. I admit that sometimes I say things in a way that I know will push buttons, and I do it deliberately. But I can take it in return, and it is never done with any genuine ill will toward any other person. Finally, I want to say that I think you are sort of stuck with me as I am. I often like to stir things up. I'm sure I will keep doing it. If I were not able to do that I would not be very interested in participating here, at least not on the rants and raves part of the board. But overall, I feel comfortable with my contribution here, I never intend to hurt anyone, and I know that I do not carry ill will toward any person.

I go away for another couple hours, and come back to this. Amazing. FunnyDuddies, you are so far out of line you are really starting to embarass yourself. If you had a nickle for every time I've expressed "hatred" on this board, you'd have about 4 cents right now. If you want to be angry at someone for sarcasm, why are you skipping musicalmomma? It's not that I think she was out of line here at all, but apparently you do because she engaged in religion-oriented sarcasm. So why attack me? You and I disagree on every issue I have run across yet, but I have never expressed any "hatred" for you or anyone else, certainly not because of religion. Do you really think I should be banned from the board for matching musicalmomma's sarcasm? Can you possibly be serious? If you can't handle a little sarcasm, I recommend you skip that rants and raves area of the board.

I go away for a couple hours and look what happens. I'm sorry folks, this is absolutely absurd. musicalmomma made a sarcastic remark, all in good fun, that "Betcha wouldn't be opposed to the death penalty if all those peske fundamentalist christian's heads were on the choping block...after tall they ARE the scourge of the earth, right?" And I answered, yes you are right, I'm in favor of the death penalty for fundamentalist christians. And now a day later I'm about to be drawn and quartered, (but done in a Kosher manner, of course) so I can be fed to the Jews. Or something like that. Pleeeeaaassseee!!!!!!!!!!! people. Get a grip. In one way I am for the death penalty for fundamentalist christians. It would get rid of people with NO SENSE OF HUMOR. Oops. There I go again with my inappropriate, hypocritical behavior. You guys are too much. Just to clarify, I oppose the death penalty for all, even fundamentalist christians (although many of them probably deserve it). JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Yes, but only fundamentalist Christians

It may be done "in the name" of the family members, that does not mean the family members agree with it. Some do, but many "family members" do not agree with capital punishment, and the opinion of the family members means nothing in that situation. The state does what it wants to do in this regard. It's only when the families are in favor of capital punishment that the state acts "in the name of" the family members.

Actually, that's a good point. I guess it's probably more accurate for me to say that I'm against the death penalty except in the case of fundamentalist Christians.

Yeah, that's the problem with America, life in prison is practically a vacation.

To me the issue is not about the condemned individual, who probably deserves what he gets most of the time. To me the issue relates to my own human dignity, and what acts I'm willing to commit, or allow others to commit in my name. Capital punishment is simply beneath my dignity, especially when there is no benefit of any kind to the victim or potential future victim. There isn't even a cost savings compared to keeping someone in prison. And if you want to really torture the hell out someone and make them pay, life in prison is far worse than a quick death. So there is simply no reason to justify debasing ourselves to that degree, as the people of most other nations have concluded..

Is she OK?

Did somebody say it was our duty to help people coming from another country? Just trying to follow your argument here.

The points green makes are the types of arguments that make sense to me. I do understand frustration about illegals, and I do feel like something needs to be done. We can't just open our borders to the world's poor, for a lot of reasons. BUT -- I also cannot escape the knowledge that the "average" American still leads a life of incredible wealth, comfort and security compared to the rest of the world. We use so much more than our "share" of the earth's resources, and we do by far the greatest damage to the environment. We are not bad people, and we should not feel guilty for our affluence. But on the other hand, I have a very hard time feeling the intense anger that so many people are expressing on this thread. Regardless of any intellectual arguments, my compassion for these people trumps my indignation over the higher taxes I must pay. And most significantly, I also know for sure that I would be doing the exact same thing if I were in their shoes (if they have shoes). My wife and I have some visitors right now from a former soviet bloc country where my wife is originally from. This place is not considered to be Third World, by any means. People are generally well educated. These visitors won the "green card lottery" and they are here trying to see if they should move to the U.S. I've talked to them about their life back home. These people are considered quite average financially in their home country, and they are not starving, but they have a standard of living that is so much lower than ours it is astounding. The government recently discontinued supplying hot Water, so they don't have that anymore. And water itself is shut off completely, and unpredictably, for extended periods of time. The price for natural gas just went up by 30%. The condition of the roads is so bad they are almost impossible to use (One of the first comments they made when they arrived is how impressed they were with our roads). And he also told me that the government is so corrupt that it is as if the mafia runs the country. The only way to get anything at all from a government agency is to pay a bribe. He said that there is really no future at all in his country for his 16 year old daughter (imagine how that feels). And this is not considered a poor country, in particular. I just think that the standard of living experienced by the vast majority of the rest of the world is on a level that most Americans simply cannot imagine, and know nothing about at all. So, as my overstuffed ass sits here in my overstuffed chair typing on one of the several computers I own, I just have a really, really hard time getting "angry" at the people who are trying to find a decent, secure toe hold somewhere on this earth for themselves and their families. Yes, I want to do something to make the borders more secure. But as we lock out all these horrible "illegals," I would hope there is room for something in our hearts besides "anger."

But Dan Marino wouldn't lie to us, would he !?!

Sanjaya!!!!

While I am strongly pro-choice, I also do not agree with Peaches on this. I understand her point, and it is true that the world does not "need" more hungry mouths to feed. But I don't believe we help the unfortunate children of the world by increasing abortions in wealthier countries. I believe the best way to honor the lives of those less fortunate is to honor life everywhere. I am still strongly pro-choice, however, because I believe that the woman must have the final choice in her own particular circumstances, and that the moral values of others should not dictate the course of action in this most personal of all circumstances. Abortion is unique in that two entities are inextricably intertwined, and decisions relating to one necessarily affect the other. In that situation the adult, living woman must have the freedom to make the call. To honor life in this situation, to me, means to honor the life of the woman. In the case of an unwanted pregnancy, someone is going to have to pay a high price. I understand the theory of dropping off the unwanted child like dry cleaning, but I just don't agree that it is that simple. Not by a long shot. And regardless of what anyone thinks of the morality of the woman's choice, it must be her choice.