TruBlueSue

And that's where we disagree...the tenets of my faith would say that the son would mean family relations...

TOM, a very good translation is the Atterberry (I think Penguin books). Yusufali is a good translation in that it preserves the sense of the Arabic; Atterberry tries to preserve the majesty of the language as well.

Ron, my apologies then to you for inferring that your use of bold type and capitalization to mean something other than you did.

So the Christian bible is the only divinely inspired 'book' in the world. Wow. I kinda thought that humanity, being G-Ds children, ALL had a bit of the divine in them, and that creation, whether artistic or intellectual, was ALL divinely inspired. What is most apparent to me in this whole thread, Ron, GadgetLady, and everyone else, is that the differing religions truly have different ways of emphasizing their tenents. Christianity seems to be (based on what you've said Ron - I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) all about an individual's PERSONAL relationship with G-D. Judaism, in contrast, is all about an individual's relationship with his/her COMMUNITY - and thereby to the divine. We look at the world as a series of human relationships, imperfect, that G-D WANTS our help in perfecting. By doing so, we bring a bit of the kingdom of heaven to earth. Conversely, we can create hell on earth for ourselves and the people around us by having dysfunctional relationships and therefore a dysfunctional relationship with G-D. And Gadget, I wasn't trying to be a smart a#$ when I answered your question about believing in JC - I merely wanted to reflect the pluralism I've found to be so refreshing on LBT.

# 534 Today, 11:23 AM Ron Cusano vbmenu_register("postmenu_378473", true); Shiloh Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 62 Posts: 200 I agree with you! Women have no place using a prayer shawl. You will get no argument from me!! Quote: Originally Posted by TruBlueSue "Completed Jews" may be their terminology, but to Judaism they are still considered Christians. However, this still doesn't really answer my original question - why would Christian women use Jewish mens' ritual objects while worshipping Jesus? Just saying that real Christians learn about Judaism b/c Jesus was Jewish just doesn't answer it. I know lots of Christians who are very conversant with Judaism who would never DREAM of utilizing Jewish ritual objects for their own purposes. The use of bold type and capital letters led me to believe that he felt strongly on it. The rest I inferred from reading the entire thread.

Ron, I directed the whole post about the Koran towards your point that the bible is the only divinely inspired scripture in the world. No response.

I'll answer - how many languages would you like "No" in? besides English, there's Hebrew (Lo), Arabic (La), Russian (Nyet), Spanish (No), German (Nein), French (Non), um...gimme a sec, I'll come up with some more... My point is that you insinuated that folks are willing to argue with Ron but are UNWILLING to stand by their own beliefs. That's crap, and I'll be the first to say it.

I love Bjean and Green and the PUTZ word! I LMAO when I read that....a little yiddishkeit is good for the soul!!

BJean and Green, you guys make me blush! My husband keeps asking me why I'm "wasting time" answering points here. The honest answere is I like the debate; also, sharing knowledge is what attaining it is all about in the end. Ron, I notice that you don't really ever respond to my postings directly - oh, yeah - except for the one about women using men's ritual objects, which you said you weren't in favor of...NOT on the grounds of Christian women using a Jewish MAN's ritual object, but more, I suspect, on the idea that women shouldn't usurp or try to do things that YOU think only MEN should do...so I guess I should just up and get out of the military obligations I freely took on, since that's probably men's work. What's next - I should stay home and cook and be a mom to my three year old daughter? I do all those things, btw - while her father and I provide the example of (constant) higher education, concern for our world and the life in it, and an awareness of the divine in our everyday lives... Isn't that what we're all trying to do in the end? Why be so caustic?

Another De La Garza bandster here and would go again in a minute.

BJean, I have to give you props for bringing up (again) the issue that the G-D of the Koran is the SAME G-D of the Tanakh and the SAME G-D as the Christian bible. I would even go farther by saying if you READ the Koran IN ARABIC (which is considered the only true way to READ Koran - Muslims the world over learn Arabic to be able to read their holy book in the mother tongue) you would recognise many many of the stories and figures. In fact, if you read the FIRST S'ura (verse) in which G-D addresses Mohammed - the first thing said by G-D is not "write down everything I say word for word..." NO - the FIRST thing G-D does in the Koran is the emphatic command "Ikra!" which means (go ahead and look it up if you want) "Recite". G-D was telling Mohammed to MEMORIZE AND RECITE AFTER HIM the things he wanted written, which was then done. ONE MAN, ONE LANGUAGE, ONE VERSION for all time - NOT the multiple translations, mistranslations, distortions, the the Bible has gone through. Muslims see Islam as the 'perfection' of the Jewish and Christian faiths through the 'corrections' one sees in the Koran - Surely these believers have the right to say that their book is as holy as those compliled by many men, in many languages, interpreted time and again, translated again, for 2000+ years? You can believe whatever you want, but to say that the way you believe, Ron, is the only way and to say that any other divinely inspired tome is NOT is facile. If you don't study the book and the tenets of the religion IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE RELIGION, then don't you see that all you really have is someone else's interpretation of the subject? And, before you jump in and question MY scholarship, I WILL give you some idea of my background, since you already know I'm Jewish (and probably have horns and a tail) I grew up in Saudi Arabia - that's right, the home of Islam, Mohammed, and Mecca. I learned Arabic there while going to school. Once I left Arabia (and no, I wasn't in Arab schools, etc. - I was an oilfield brat) I went to college, where I earned a BA and MA in Middle East languages (Arabic and Hebrew ) and Political Science. I THEN joined the US Army, determined to give something back to the country that allows me, as a female, to be so well educated and to live MY Jewish life. I served TWO tours in Iraq in Civil Affairs, working as a translator and cultural resource for Allied forces. NEVER there was I denigrated or treated poorly for being Jewish - I was treated well SPECIFICALLY because I knew the culture, language, and respected their religion! Isn't that what America, the land I signed up to serve, the land I was proud to represent in uniform, supposed to be a beacon, a bastion of the same? Your ilk would have us treating Muslims as 'Dhimmi' e.g., the way Christians and Jews were treated in 11th Century Islamic Spain, for example. I, for one, would say NO to that.

"Completed Jews" may be their terminology, but to Judaism they are still considered Christians. However, this still doesn't really answer my original question - why would Christian women use Jewish mens' ritual objects while worshipping Jesus? Just saying that real Christians learn about Judaism b/c Jesus was Jewish just doesn't answer it. I know lots of Christians who are very conversant with Judaism who would never DREAM of utilizing Jewish ritual objects for their own purposes.

Ron, the Jews I know (including myself) call those Jews who believe that Jesus was/is/could be the messiah Christians! Those of us who hold to the Law of Moses and believe that Moschiach is yet to come point out that the events promised by G-D that would happen when Moshiach comes DID NOT HAPPEN when Jesus was around...ergo, we're still awaiting Moshiach.

That was me who wondered about non-Jews - and the particular question was directed at a woman who said she "wrapped herself in Tallit" Tallit is a Jewish prayer shawl, and , being Jewish, I asked aloud why a Christian WOMAN would take a MAN's ritual obligation and use it in some sort of Christian worship. (Women taking on men's ritual obligations is something expressly forbidden in Judaism - almost akin to cross-dressing in the sense that women have their own ritual obligations and that the obligations on the sexes are different EXPRESSLY due to the reasoning that men and women need different reminders of the divine in their everyday pursuits.)

Posting for Monday weigh in - FINALLY!!!! I have lost 1.5 pounds this past week. Gosh, I've onlt lost 1.5 pounds THIS MONTH!! Think I'll be able to convince my doc to FINALLY give me a darn fill??? LOL

I'm still trying to figure out how people who say they are Christians take on the trappings of Jewish ritual and call it Christian.

baby steps...I gotta remember that...

I missed something somewhere ... since when do Christians use tallit? and for that matter, when do christian WOMEN use tallit?? Tallit (prayer shawl) is a MEN'S requirement not Women - and Jews would look at women ursurping a man's mitzvah as a BAD THING!!! Sorry, but I'm a proud US Jewish War veteran AND a feminist AND pretty conversant in hebrew and arabic and I just don't see any ties between tallit and christians, never mind the other rants about Allah not being G-D and showing none of the attributes of G-D and on and on and on...oh, and btw - I have read the Tanach in hebrew and english, and have NEVER seen ANY reference to JC or ANY word about G-D sending his "son" - I see references to Moshiach (the messiah) BUT it doesn't say ANYWHERE it's going to be offspring of the one unknowable inquantifiable singular G-D. Just my two cents - I should have posted this much sooner... I trust that T_O_M said as much more eloquently...when I get riled I tend to break it down to the lowest level...LOL

And damn if I forgot to check in for weight - still 0! This is week three with no loss but no gain either. Doc hasn't wanted to give me a fill since my last one in Oct - I go every month, and every month she says no, you're still losing....even if it has only been a pound a week...ok, ok, so I'm complaining a little when I know I haven't been as diligent as I should be with my food - I eat M and M's when I get stressed...(like a 1.6 oz bag a day..) that 180 calories is doing me IN!! LOL....going back to the doc on 7 Feb - I am hoping for a fill... Luck and best wishes to all... Suz

oooo hockey player numbers...Delarla, you've just dished my kink! lol

I'm still here, too...just trying to juggle too much at once...lol...between work and school and three year old and fitting the gym in and my hubby and HIS school...lol

Was married to the worst of the worst; now am to the best of the best! We were married April Fool's Day ( on purpose) 1999...when you can say you've been to war with your spouse, stood guard over them with an M-16 against the enemy while they did their personal biz in a shell hole and shared a MRE (meal ready to eat - military version of a hiking meal) during a sandstorm for your fifth wedding anniversary then you can say you've done it all with your soul mate!! <grin> :-)

Monday weigh in - lost nothing! Still the same! I am getting really frustrated....

BJ - You're right - I need to get reinspired - and the carbs, truffles, crap over the holidays and not going to the gym did me in, I think....I'm sitting here drinking my coffee laced with protein, and eating steel-cut scottish oats (the kind you have to cook for ten min, but good) thinking I have to get back on the gym routine...and watching what I eat, and cutting out the damn peanut m and m's!!!....<grin> I am not feeling much restriction, either - I ate a couple of boneless wings last night (no breading) but could only eat a couple - pizza with thick crust is a no-go, but I can eat the thin crust...I can eat an english muffin! I know its a bad idea, but it all goes down relatively easy....

Hi - Am here and doing okay, although I went back to get a fill on Wednesday, and the doc wouldn't give me one since I lost 4 (FOUR DAMMIT) pounds in Dec....BUT - I am half way to my goal!!!! Its been tough with the holidays and head hunger.... How are you doing??? Suz