BJean

Funny green! Thanks for your post, Cleo's Mom. The other paradox which is so puzzling to many of us is that the "right-to-life" (which is their moniker of choice) people, support the death penalty. No amount of explaning can justify that. I think that calling themselves "right-to-life" does not appropriately describe what they advocate.

Jack I was speaking to serious complications - not minor inconveniences. It was said (elsewhere) that most people eventually have complications with their bands and I was just trying to do a little research on my own. Thanks, your input is very helpful.

Go Mindy, go Mindy!

I disagree with the premise that slave owners thought that slaves weren't human. They may have treated them inhumanely, but they knew they were human. A fertilized egg is human tissue. It is HUMAN! I don't know how anyone can dispute that human cells are human. But a few cells don't make a human being or an individual person. A fertlized egg, an embryo even, is definitely a part of the mother. It cannot survive without its' host. The cells have to have the mother in order to survive at least up to a certain point in development. But none of this matters. The question on the table is whether a woman has the right to make her own decisions about a cluster of human cells growing in her body. She has that right. She has that ability. There is nothing you can physically do to stop her. Cleo's mom has a totally practical and sensible approach to the subject. It is the way life is and we have to deal with the reality of the subject, not make up theoretical what-ifs or comparisons between abortion and slavery. That is an interesting tactic. It is an outrageous analogy used to equate pro-choice people to racially biased slave owners. I mean it's been boiled down to something so raw and hateful it is hard to believe that anti-choice people can honestly say these things without being embarrassed. And gadget, before you jump on me for accusing you of anything, I fully understand that the things we read here are things that the right to life movement has cooked up and carefully calibrated to feed its' followers. I'm not pointing fingers at you personally. I look at this as a "movement" of which you may be a part, but I do not view you as the movement. Cleo's mom: Cleo is very lucky to have such a smart and informed woman for her mother.

That is undoubtedly true. It is also the reason I believe he selected Palin as his running mate. The right wing faction of the party was totally up in arms because he wasn't right enough. Palin certainly fit that bill and they seem to love her even today. There is definitely a movement underway to get her elected in 4 years. Some subtle things are happening and some not so subtle.

Cleo's mom: Very relevant and realistic approach to this issue. Thank you.

If you do not believe in abortion it is within your rights as an American to not have an abortion. No laws says that if you have a retarded or handicapped fetus that you must abort it. My point is that you must live with the fact that if an American woman choose to abort a fetus, it is within her rights to do so. Even if you were able to change the law back to the time when abortion was illegal, women will still make the choice to abort if they need to. And there will always be compassionate doctors willing to go to jail to help women who are in need of that kind of medical care. It makes no sense whatsoever to take away a woman's legal right to choose. There are always circumstances where it is medically or emotionally necessary for women to abort. That is a fact that you can't argue with although I know you will.

Ready to bail yet Carrie? I sure am. Maybe they can talk amongst themselves. They don't accept anything we tell them.

Well I'm not taking sides here but I do remember during the campaign you saying you didn't like either of them. It seems that if you could stand anything that Bush did, you might as well have voted for him.

You really can't comprehend that millions of people believe in a woman's right to choose? You really believe that there are clergy who have not read the Bible? You have a problem with the term "clergy"? Why? You really think you're the only person with a direct line to God's mind? What you're saying is that "...you shouldn't say that you believe in God and then do the things he hates or tells you not to do." But what you really mean is that you shouldn't say that you believe in God and do the things that I'VE said he hates and tells you not to do. We can read and interpret just as well as you can. Just because we do not interpret God's word to mean the same things that you do, doesn't mean we are wrong. It might just mean that YOU are wrong. What's next? Do we start quoting scripture here? Line for line, head to head?

President Obama is not a "hardline Socialist." We've had it so bad under Dubya, anyone else looks extreme when in fact, it is Bush who is hard-line and extremist. Everybody used to scream at any of us who were anti-Bush when we bothered to point out all the reasons how he had systematically taken away our rights and was tearing this country apart. The people who think Bush is okay because he was making us safe just bought the B.S. he and Cheney were peddling. They should be brought up before a tribunal for their crimes against the state. I hope they do it and in an honest, open and forthright way so that Americans can stop kidding themselves about that administration. President Obama wants to get us back on a sensible path. By comparison to Bush, that looks Socialist to some people, but it is what America is supposed to be about. Some people can't see past the ridiculous idea that he is simply a tax and spend person. Well Bush was all about tax and spend but he didn't want to spend it on things that went to the betterment of this country. President Obama does want to improve this country. That's a socialist concept? Not hardly. I know, nothing I say will convince you. But if you would just pay attention to what the man plans and is actually doing, maybe you would get off that mantra of yours and give the dude a chance. You sure were willing to give Bush a chance by justifying his wholly dishonerable actions, for 8 long hideous years. (And I don't mean that you thought he was great and wonderful. But by not working to get him out of office, you did support him.)

What's your point? I mean the proven one. My earlier post to her might have proven your point, but I don't understand how the one you quoted does. Earlier she actually said something decent. I was overwhelmed. Wasa I have no idea how we've gotten to be adversaries. You have bounced around as much as I have lately. And much of it has been lost on me. I'm sure I come off as strident sometimes, but lately you have seemed a little extreme to me. I apologized on the other thread. I do not want to be your adversary. I appreciate your posts, nearly all the time and I have said so repeatedly. Yet you still snap at me. I just don't get it.

Did you run on a hard-line pet adoption platform?

Jack I'm curious in light of another discussion going on elsewhere. You've had the band for a long time. Have you experienced any complications? Are you "one" with your band and completely happy with it?

Really great helpful post, MacMadame!

You know Octopussy didn't one day just decide to have IVF and woke up one morning surprised that she was carrying lots of babies. This has been a process. She has had 6 other children and not all in one litter. She obviously has a plan. She probably intended to make a career out of this and that's why she got all plasticized so that she can be ready for her close up. She figured out a career path and so far, it's working for her. She's banking on the fact that people are always fascinated with freaks and freak shows. Gloria Allred has capitalized on it for many years. Unfortunately the babies will turn out to be freaks on her freak show. None of them asked for that... hmmm or did they? Shirley McClain would suggest that the babies chose HER!

There are millions of people who believe in God and the right to choose. Even people in the clergy understand that in certain cases abortion is the only choice, and they are compassionate and supportive to the people involved. I know you believe that abortion is murder, pure and simple. Many, many people disagree with you. Good people. Christian people. Intelligent and beautiful people. People from every walk of life. Carrie certainly isn't the only good, beautiful believer who is pro-choice. And for you to seem incredulous that she could be all of those things at once is very revealing.

I'm curious Beth, who did you vote for?

Well look, it seems you did club me into submission. Go figure.

"So just get overfilled where you slime on your own saliva and you can experience the same thing." "One week be over filled, then the next week take all the fill out. The next week get over filled again. Then you too, can experience the joys I did. Go for it. You want it, do it." Sorry wasa, I shouldn't have made the assumption that you had read all my posts. You're right. I overreacted to the first sentence that you made, above. I HAVE done exactly that. For over 2 and a half years. But unlike you I haven't lost down to my goal weight. You made me feel like you're trying to club me into submission or something. I believe everything you've said about the sleeve. But then I believed everything that you said when you were pro-band. So I'm a little skeptical and it felt like you were being critical of that. It's a situation that has me on the edge and I am having a really hard time. I didn't mean to be rude.

Jachut I was wondering that too. How do you maintain your weight once you reach your goal if you have the sleeve? And wasa I have experienced some of what you've told us you went through with the band. I haven't gone to some of the extremes to handle them that you have with your medical connections. But in July I had an attack of ischemic colitis and almost died. So I feel I would be really stupid if I didn't get as much information as possible before going under the knife again. And the fact that I am so intimidated and afraid of surgery doesn't make me a wimp or stupid. You fought your way through all the problems you were having with the band and still lost all the weight. I think that is great. You had had your band taken out and got the sleeve and you're very happy with it. Super. I appreciate all the information you've shared with us, very much. It really is helpful. Cramming your beliefs down people's throats about the sleeve is not much different than patty cramming her religion down people's throats. Either cramming action makes people want to frow up.

That was nicely explained, patty. I don't mean to sound mean, but I have to say that it surprised me very much to think of you as being even-handed in a debate. I've always thought that of you as condescending and superior and even angry. So it was nice to read your last post and it makes me feel more respectful of you.

oregon I can understand why you are interested in the answer to that question. For me, when I can only eat a bite or two, I am delighted! I push the plate away and I feel strangely happy and relieved. I get excited thinking about actually losing more weight. But I have also had some of the adverse problems that go along with not being able to eat much. And once I am able to eat more, I have a hard time not eating everything I can get my hands on. I feel like Jeckle & Hyde when it comes to food.

jachut mentioned a "trigger" that happens with obese people. I believe that it definnitely happens with some obese people. I'm not sure if the yo-yo dieting beings it on or what. But I believe that for some of us, eating is to our obesity as not eating is to an anorexic. Boy that sounds weird. But I believe that some people have a compulsion to eat, just like some people can't force themselves to eat. This complicates things tremendously. It's going to take a lot more studies and a lot more research before anyone can guarantee results for anyone. In the frickin' meantime, what the heck do we do? I'm scared to death of more surgery. Especially a surgery that tampers with my normal bodily functions that cannot be reversed if necessary. On the other hand, if a sleeve really gave me the tool that helped me get normal, I would do it. And wasa, yes, I would do all those horrible things if it helped me become slim again. I do several of those things now and I'm still fighting tooth and nail to keep from regaining every damn pound I lost within the first 4 months after surgery. All this talk about ghrelin makes me wonder if the band is making my system produce more. I have a gnawing hunger in my stomach almost 24/7. Curse words.

I agree Wasa. I wonder if our government really thinks it would cause a collapse of our system if they began to enforce immigration laws when it comes to Mexicans. Because they do enforce the law when it comes to many other countries. It's the U.S./Mexico border where they carry a soft stick. And big business is behind keeping the illegal Mexican labor force available to them. I sure wouldn't call those folks liberals.