BJean

I've never known anyone who has had a Down's Syndrome baby who didn't brag about what a sweet and wonderful child they have. But it can't be easy live with a handicap like that. Psychology and counseling seems to appeal to a certain kind of person for a vocation. Many of them have some serious psychological problems of their own.

rodriguezequal, it is wonderful that you have unconditional family support in your life! Not everyone is so lucky. Sometimes counselors enjoy hearing themselves talk more than they like to listen.

Well sometimes people can be wrong about a person when they rely on a few press releases to form an opinion. But when Octomom's own parents have come out and exposed her, and Dr. Phil who is an extremely down to earth equal opportunity psychologist throws her under the bus, and when she can't keep a publicist in this day of greed dominating everything, one really can't deny the sad, sick condition of Octomom and the even sadder situation that those children are in. I mean if someone is still thinking that what Octomom did is okay, then it makes you wonder about their motivation as well, eh?

As I said earlier, Gadget, it is terrific that you are providing information for green to pass on to her niece. I do hope that green's niece is able to handle the decision she made in a way that does not leave lasting scars or any regret. She has one child and I have a feeling she knows whether her decision was necessary or not. I do know that you are very involved in the anti-abortion movement and your experience is much more broad-ranged than mine. I don't spend the kind of time that you do promoting my cause. However it has been my experience that the women that I have known personally who have opted for an abortion do not experience the kind of emotions that you referenced when you said "...but it is not uncommon for those who have to turn to all sorts of unpleasant things (drugs, alcohol, etc., even leading down the path to suicide)" In fact I have found the opposite to be true. This is not information that I have tried to seek out. It is just my own personal experiences with women I've known either as close friends or acquaintances. These women have helped me form my opinions and beliefs about the necessity of women being being allowed to make their own choice. The women that I'm speaking of are thankful that they made the decision that they did. They do not wish they hadn't had an abortion. On the other hand, the women that I've known who have given up an unplanned baby for adoption are the ones who in retrospect have wished they had been able to have an abortion. They did not have that choice for several reasons: because of their religion, or because they had family or friend intervention, or the because of the guilt heaped upon them from people who believed that they knew what was better for them, or simply didn't have the choice because abortion was illegal. Unfortunately through their unfortunate experiences, they learned that the guilt from giving a child up for adoption, for them over time, became far worse than the guilt or stigma attached to terminating the pregnancy would have been. I personally do not know one person who has been traumatized enough after an abortion to turn to drugs or suicide. But I do know women who if they had been forced to carry the baby to term, would have opted for suicide if there was no other way out of their situation. These have been my own humble experiences and the things that have helped me form my beliefs and inspired the passion in me for fighting anyone who wants to take the choice away from women. However, it should take nothing away from anyone else's personal experiences that point to a different state of mind for women they've known and I'm certainly not arguing that women will never be grief stricken after an abortion. Every woman's state of mind and circumstances are different. I will add that I have friends who have adopted children and for the most part, they have been thrilled that they were able to have a baby to love and raise. But I feel I should mention my aunt who generously adopted an older child (age 6) who turned out to be mentally deranged and wound up serving time in prison. There were times when she certainly experienced some regret, expecially as it affected her biological children. I weil also tell you about my friend who went through all the laborous paperwork and home visits and all the red tape involved in adopting her daughter and the day before she picked up her week-old baby girl, found out that she was pregnant with twins (wound up being a boy and a girl). She wanted to take the adopted little girl back, but the guilt was too much to bear. Don't get me wrong. She is a great mother to all three of her children. But she certainly has experienced some regret. Again I believe this all points to the fact that there are no simple answers to this complicated question. This is not some black and white issue that can be reduced to one single remedy for every woman. There are many, many shades of gray on this issue. And that is why allowing women to make their own choice is necessary. Taking women's legal rights away just won't work.

Saw "Revolution Road" today. I didn't know the topic, just that it had DiCaprio and Winslet and that the subject matter was intense. I'll say! Anybody else see it?

yes, bats in the belfry. Looney Tunes. Nuttier than a fruitcake. Porch light on with no bulb. 3 ants short of a picnic. oh whatever. yeah, she's unbalanced. But plain...now that's one p-nutty fellow if he finds her crazy sexy! He's one mondo-bizzaro dude! One desperado short of a posse. (I heard he likes grouper lips. Eeeuuuu!!!)

It's interesting to note green, that when Bush took office the opposition party didn't jump all over him and accuse him of high crimes and misdemeanors in the media like the Republicans are doing to Obama now. But when you think about the beginning of Bush's first term you have to remember that Bush wasn't doing anything period. How can you criticize someone who isn't doing anything or even showing his face in public for the most part? You can compain that his frequent absences from the White House are a clue as to how personally invested the man is... in his vacations. And people did complain about that. But not very loudly, and certainly not as much as we should have. When 9/11 happened, the Republicans put out the word that it was all because of Clinton. They set the stage right then and there for the way they would handle criticism of Bush and they perfected it and expanded on it to such a point that people finally understood the game and threw the bums out.

If it makes you feel any better Cleo, I do participate on Obama's website and I contributed financially to his campaign war chest. You are right though, he cannot do this all alone or just because we want him to. We must make our wishes known to our other elected officials. Locally (Texas) it falls on deaf ears most of the time, but I know that at least in Washington, they do read mail from their constituents and many of them respond with serious answers.

I'm sure that everything you said is true, gadget. We are on opposite sides of the debate about choice, but both of us knows that women in need should never be put in the middle of a debate. I was being sensitive to what I know are green's beliefs. And nothing I posted to her is incorrect or divisive.

It's very thoughtful and generous to provide a source for someone who has recently had an abortion. Green I am so sorry that your niece had to go through this. I am sure it is a huge help to her that you have been there and she can talk with you. If I were you, knowing that she is in a fragile frame of mind right now, I would pre-screen any counselors. Organizations that offer this kind of counseling may have good intentions, but are not always as educated and well-equipped as you hope and they sometimes have ulterior motives - like religious conversion. Something I have a feeling you would not approve of.

Cleo'smum, I would have enjoyed being physically involved in the campaign but I didn't want to do it alone. None of the people I am around and only one of my friends is a Democrat. In fact one friend of mine (and we generally never talked politics) hasn't had anything to do with me since Obama won. I told her I was going to vote for him and she hasn't forgiven me. I find most Republicans a very odd lot of people. Thanks for your posts above. You present some factual data whereas I just rant from my heart, which is pretty lame in a debate.

A talking grouper!!! I got the visual and LMAO!!!!

When our preemies were born and staying in the NICU, we had to scrub our hands for 3 minutes before we were allowed to even enter the NICU. 3 minutes of scrubbing with hospital anti-bacterial soap is a really long time. (They timed us.) But nothing was ever said about cutting our nails or getting rid of artificial nails. This was in California too.

There is a difference between the Dionne quintuplets being photographed in a controlled environment for Life magazine when they were babies with a few follow up stories every 6 years or so, and the circus that surrounds Octolips and the fame and wealth she is seeking by exploiting her children any way she can. In other words, there is a diffence between gaining fame and wealth from a serious news story and the kind of fame and wealth that Britney Spears gets when she intentionally flashes her crotch for the paparazzi. If Octobmom weren't such a dim bulb, and if she weren't so self-centered and indifferent to her children's real needs, she could take advantage of the sensationalism of having 8 babies at once. But she's not focused on their needs, she's focused on her own. The kind of notoriety she generates is not healthy for any of her children. I know it is exciting to think that she won't be on the dole. We are all outraged by her irresponsibility because she had 14 children when she was not married and unable to provide for them. But the welfare of the children is more important to us than whether or not she gets public assistance, right?

But plain, the trickle down theory is just that, a theory. It doesn't work. It might have worked in the past if the wealthy weren't so greedy. But you claim it will work in the long run and in fact, it has not, unless you mean over a hundred years or so and I am still not convinced that the richer folks will ever do the right thing. Paying their fair share only means just that. I'm not saying they should pay everybody's share - just their own. Tax them like they tax the rest of us. Stop with the huge tax incentives to oil companies, for instance. If you want to give tax incentives, give them to companies that will reinvest in rebuilding American infrastructure and in eco-friendly alternatives to all of the things that pollute and defile the earth. American consumers could begin to make a difference if they would refuse to purchase items made out of the country. Of course it would be very hard to find goods that are made here. Nearly everything, especially in discount stores like Wal-mart, are made in places like China. I agree that the stimulous bill is frightening. The alternative is also frightening. How is our presence in Afghanistan going to allow us to keep Pakistan from being taken over by the Taliban? It keeps us in the area true, but what the president originally spoke to was actually going into Pakistan. You think he is getting us poised to do that? Too bad we're having to fight the Afhanistani people, continuing to deplete our resources, in the meantime. I wish there were a covert way to take care of business there. One that could reduce the "collateral" damage and our other dwindling resources.

Yes, it is like beating our heads against the wall. They probably feel the same way. That's why this issue is the struggle that it is for people. And it is also the reason why pro-choice people cannot let these kinds of debates to go unchecked. I am probably the oldest person posting on this thread. I lived during the time when abortion was illegal. I can tell you personal stories of women that I've known who have made the choice to abort and are incredibly thankful that they went against the law and terminated their pregnancies. Having a baby was not a choice that they could live with. That is one reason why I can't just stand back and be silent. I know everyone gets just as tired of seeing my posts here as they do some of the others, but I will never apologize for standing up for what I know is right. Btw, I also know women who have chosen to continue their unwanted pregnancies and have either kept their babies or given them up for adoption. For those who have given them up for adoption, there is almost always a wish that they had not made that decision. The women I know who have done it seem to have more regrets than anybody. Either it is too painful to have a child out there that they don't know, or the child has gone against the rules that were in place at the time and have searched until they have found the birth mother and that is a nightmare for some women. I have a friend who gave up a child she carried when she was only 17. Her father, whom she loved dearly, had a sudden heart attack and died. She spent the next few months in such pain that she wound up having sex with guys to try to fill that void that her father's death left. She wasn't a bad girl. She was young, immature and grieving. She did not know who the father of her baby was. She had the child and give him up for adoption. He was born healthy. When she married, many years later, she had another child who was born with Down's Syndrome. She is my age and she still has regrets about giving up her first child. I may have told parts of her story before. I only tell it now because some would have us believe that the decision to have a child once a woman has been impregnated is simple - it's a life, you must carry it to term. But it is not simple and every woman's story is different. Some women do have abortions for convenience. But I believe that the vast majority do it because they feel they cannot bring another life into the world, no matter what. I have known women who would prefer to take their own lives than to bring an unwanted baby into the world. That's why so many, many women had back alley abortions and that's why if the choice is taken away, women will once again find it absolutely necessary to seek back alley help. It makes no sense to take this choice away from women again.

Women also die of complications from pregnancy and childbirth. What some of you don't understand is that some people value life too much to force babies to be brought into the world no matter what. We believe that there is such a thing as value of life. Anti-choice folks seem to think that any life is better than no life. Well some of us just do not agree with that. Sorry, it obviously goes against some people's beliefs, but that is the way it is. Valuing life is one reason why some women will get an abortion whether it is legal or not. It is also why many people are pro-choice. Placing value on the quality of life is also the reason why in some countries euthanasia is a choice. In this country, some people treat their dogs better than they treat people.

You're right about Bush being my president too. It was very hard to stomach. Probably no different than how you feel about a Democrat being in office. But I did lose pride in my country because of the policies he adopted while he was in office. The country changed, and not for the better. But the difference between the Democrats and Republicans when it comes to taxes is not that Republicans don't believe in taxes or reducing the size of government, they just say that they do. In reality they don't. They believe that if you give tax breaks to the wealthy and corporations, it will generate an economy that produces more jobs and benefits, indirectly, for middle and lower income people. That has been proven year after year that it just doesn't work. It didn't work when Reagan was president, or when George H.W. Bush was president or when his son was president. And btw, there is a clear minority of the very wealthy in this country and that is not subjective or vague. Democrats are honest about their plans. It sets them up for criticism because by contrast to the Republicans who SAY they aren't for taxes, it makes them look like "tax and spend" people, which in reality both parties are. Although as I said, the Republicans don't want to tax wealthy or higher income people and Democrats think that the wealthy should pay their fair share. If giving the wealthy tax breaks did work, I would be all for it. Because although we are not Bernie Maddoff wealthy, we will be paying more taxes under the new rules. We own a business too and I believe that if we hire our computer work out, it will not be to India or any other foreign country. We'll get out of the business before that becomes acceptable to us. Of course politics is partisan. Of course every president chooses people from his own party for his cabinet. But for the first time in a very long time, the president has not made all of his appointees exclusively from his own party. And he has already reached out to the opposition party, which past administrations seldom did, except for Reagan, who did it often and it was very effective. I understand the reason for our presence in Afhganistan but I disagree that it is necessary. I know that Pakistan and Iran are huge concerns for us, but to keep pouring money down that Afganistan rat hole is not helping our economic situation. I wonder why our government hasn't learned a lesson from both our military presence in Afghanistan and Russia's prior to ours. And the Taliban continues to grow and are a bigger a threat around the world everyday.

Well said, Sapphiresgold. The majority of Americans feel the spirit of generosity and freedom that you explained so well.

Talk is cheap. What exactly have the Republicans done to fix the economy or plan for the future or to deal with any of the problems that are facing America today? Because of the total lack of our government to do any of the things that have been desperately needed over the past 30 years, we are in a terrible bind. I charge any of these folks who are so quick to criticize action on the part of our curremt Congress and President, to come up with a better plan. They have had ample time in office to fix what is broken and they have only contributed to the ailment - which has developed into an illness that is worse than any pneumonia in the world. Now they need to come up with a better plan or get the hell out of the way. This bellyaching is obviously preying on the fears of Americans. It is business as usual with the Republicans. Haven't they learned anything from the many years that they have been in charge at the White House and Congress? Remember they were also in power in Congress during most of the Clinton administration and fought him every step of the way during his term of office, beginning with the his first day on the job. They're trying the same tactics now, but they have proven what they're up to and the American people aren't buying their fear mongering any longer. We've finally got a grip on reality and we're not going to take it anymore!

You're wrong! There has been a lot of criticism of movie stars selling their kids in that way. And just because you CAN make a buck, or someone else does it, doesn't make it correct to do it if it is unethical or detrimental to those who are being used. The public argument the stars make for allowing their children to be photographed and exposing them to all kinds of media coverage is that the paparazzi is going to get pictures anyway, so why not profit from it. People can shelter their children from things that can hurt them in the long run and there are a lot of famous people who do not choose to use their children to make a few bucks. (Definition of a few bucks is relative, of course.)

I confess I did not watch the 911 video. But if she truly said she was going to kill heself over and over, it is very hard to believe that the woman isn't crazy. What type of person threatens to kill herself when she is distressed? Do you know anyone who says that openly and so often? Seriously, do you have a friend who says that? What would you do if your friend or family member said that? There are lots of ways to convince a 911 operator that you are desperate and afraid and distressed because your child is missing - threatening to kill yourself is not normal in that situation. If you threaten to kill yourself more often than not, people take it seriously. They seek psychiatric help for you. It seems that the woman needs to be committed, evaluated and treated. Obviously there are many lives at stake here; hers and her babies.

The Congress is expected to wise up and make changes in campaign funding and establish some kind of term limits on their length of time in office? That's like putting the dog in charge of his feeding bowl. Yes, I will admit that I have been very surprised at some of Obama's appointments and I am distressed that he wants to expand our presence in Afghanistan. Tell me that you Republicans weren't a bit surprised and disapointed in some of the things that your president did while he was in office over the past 8 years. If you weren't, that's shocking to me. On a positive note regarding our current president, I believe that he actually does care about this country - for gosh sakes it's his country too! And some of his choices have been made because he is trying very hard to reunite people in this country and to limit, at least to some extent, the very partisan way we have been controlled for so long. It would be great if we could get away from the 2 party system. The Republican party is so fractured at this point that maybe it could happen. Of course we all thought that the Democratic party was going to fall apart and create another choice for us, but it didn't. So it's hard to be optimistic about the possibility of changing from a strictly 2 party system. But best case senario, Obama leads us out of this horrible slump and we get on a course that takes us all in a better direction - one that creates jobs and better schools and better medical care, and one that is fairer to the majority of Americans. If that happens we can all regain our sense of pride about what we thought our country stands for.

I really think all the B.S. about having children to fulfill something that was lacking in her childhood is just a line she thought up to try to justify what she's done. And even if it were true in some way, (who ever claims to have a perfect childhood?) she's being very hurtful to her parents in stating something like that publically. Her real motives are to get lots of personal attention and making money off her babies. The more outrageous she is, the bigger the opportunity to have her face on People magazine and have wealthy folks come to her rescue financially. I can't imagine that anyone is surprised that she would turn down the care and feeding of those infants if it meant she had to promise not to use them in her quest for attention and wealth.

Obama promised to end the war in Iraq. He did not promise that it would be ended within the first few months or even the first year. What he did promise was a well thought out withdrawal of our troops. He never intended to just bring everybody and everything home immediately. That would be practically impossible and not in our best interests. Having read a lot of your posts during the election process Plain, I am pleased to read your posts here now and to know that you are one of the people who is trying to wait and see and to possibly consider that change is what we need. Not more of the same, which is what the Republicans promised during their campaign. I agree that the spending package is scary to think about. It may not be the answer. But it may also be the only answer. The U.S. isn't the only country trying to stimulate their economy in this way. Obama is a very intelligent man and he has done his homework. Hopefully the plan has merit and it will get the job done. We tried not taxing the rich so that they would employ Americans and invest in improving this country. But giving the wealthy all the breaks that we did, obviously did not work the way Bush and Reagan and others have always promised that it would. The rich just kept trying to find ways to get richer and our country is in one heck of a mess due primarily to greed. So yeah Obama wants to upset the apple cart. What other new better plan was ever on the table?