BJean

You know me well, gadget. You're counting on the fact that I won't filter back through all the pages of threads and line up all the statements and vile fear mongering that you have done ad nauseum on this thread. If I weren't sure that everyone else had read them, I would do that. But you're not fooling anyone. Don't act all innocent. You know you are guilty of doing exactly what you are accusing me of - except that you've done it louder and longer than I even thought about doing. I am sick to death of the shrill right wing absurd, ridiculous posts that I've read over and over and over. You all must be in a frenzied panic about the things our new president is proposing and is actually doing. It makes us wonder when the people like Timothy McVeigh are going to come out of the woodwork. Unfortunately, I have a feeling some of you wouldn't be disappointed if they did. I am so over trying to make sense of such lopsided, right wing thinking here. Sorry ladies, you're on your own now. Knock yourselves out.

You people are lunatics. I asked you questions that you never answered. You have done nothing to prove any of your points. You have only spouted the same propaganda that Rush Limbaugh spews. Are you on Oxy? And yet you belittle me because I haven't answered questions - to your liking. Go suck an egg.

It surprises me that you would have the nerve to criticize me for posting analogies or scenarios when most of your posts are full of things that lead people to believe that you always have statistics for what you claim. Fact is that you don't. And your analogies are outrageous. If you're going to do it, please respectfully allow others to make similar posts.

Yes rodriguez, you got it right. To the anti-choice folks, the mother is not important. They believe that she made the choice to have sex and once she's pregnant, she has no choice. Her problems and complications are secondary to their insistence that every woman must have the baby even if it kills her. I have even read someone here say she gets what she deserves for choosing to have sex. Interesting, right? Like every woman who becomes pregnant chose to have sex. Like babies should be the penalty for women's indiscretions. Wow. The over-simplification of the real problems women face is mind boggling. Carrie I am for scientific advancements too. But we sure need to get this right first.

Oh Beth, you're a mess! :-) Some of your rebuttals to parts of my posts are yelling about something I didn't even say, or something that you interpreted inaccurately. I'm pretty sure that you didn't actually read all of what I wrote because you would have gotten it. As it is, you don't. Which is fine. You're so brainwashed you'll never get it until it all unfolds and you will see it and live through it like I have. The Republicans are so good at re-writing history though, I have no doubt that when something good happens they will claim they're the ones who got us out of this mess. Btw, when did your taxes get raised? When I was speaking to the greed that we all exhibit by "going into debt" for luxury items, you decided I was talking about everyone who owns those things. Again, I'm sure you just scanned my post and I have to admit that I wasn't willing to go through yours line by line either. I've heard it all before. Nothing new here. Move along folks.

You are wrong about ACORN. They are an independent group that tried to register the voters that helped put your man out of office. (And he's your man if you voted for him.) I understand why you are opposed to a group like ACORN, but they are not a fraudulent group. They aren't perfect, but they did not corrupt the voting system or the election process in America. The only place that accused ACORN of being an illegal group that I know of is Fox. Everyone else did their research and interviewed the people in the group and learned the truth about the accusations that Fox leveled against ACORN. ACORN does not and did not have the power to corrupt the elections in America. The people who contracted for the voting machines and the people who were running the election boards had the power - you go, Jeb Bush. All Americans citizens should be allowed to vote in this country and should be encouraged to vote. That's what ACORN helped do. That they were criticized for it, in such an inflammatory way, is certainly understandable though. It's politics as usual for the Republicans.

Beth sez: "But to go from him who 'did nothing' to this guy who is introducing socialism at an alarming rate -- well, I'll take Bush doing nothing, thank you." Beth, unfortuntely the Bush White House didn't do "nothing" if they had done nothing, we'd be a whole lot better off than for them to have done all the things that they did do. I do not believe that we are turning into a socialist country. But what we've had for so many years is exactly the opposite of socialism, you're right about that. How you can endorse the Bush doctrine of fascism, where there is a rigid one-party dictatorship, oppression of the opposition, glorification of war, a small group who rule the masses, etc. is beyond me. No one can argue the fact that the government encouraging the lenders to extend more loans to people so that they can buy homes was not in and of itself a bad thing. But what happened was that the lenders in their greedy frenzy to take advantage of the new rules and put billions upon billions in their own pockets, they have caused the new home industry to nearly go kaput, the resale market to come to a standstill, and to bankrupt their own businesses. Right wingers like to blame the Congress and those people who were duped into taking on homes that they could not really afford. Right? Yeah, people in America who wanted their own homes were stupid to buy something they couldn't afford, but the friggin' banks and mortgage companies told them that they could afford it - they're the ones who should be run out of town on a rail. They are the ones who benefitted, not the dumb homeowners. I'd like very much for the wealthy bankers and lenders who were involved in that to all go broke. But don't you understand why that wouldn't make this country better? Don't you understand how that could cause this country to go under? The Republicans do not have the answers. They have proven that all they know is what they've done in the past and that has brought us to the brink of disaster - actually we are beyond the brink, aren't we? Greed in America has brought us here. We're all guilty, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, all of us who clamored after every new material good that came on the market. Everybody who went into debt to own the biggest house, the most luxurious car, huge boats, a second and third home, all the latest electronic gadgets, go on the longest cruises, wear designer fashions, carry a freaking Chanel bag... Now somebody has to try to fix it. Somebody has got to make us all pay the piper and it ain't pretty. Bitch and moan all you want about the current administration, but understand that just bitching and moaning won't ever fix the problems. Pissing and whining is counter-productive. The current whiners on Fox are getting as many Americans as possible to join in the cry of "socialism" and plant the fear that word brings. Ronald Reagan's "government is the problem" is such an attractive quuote to people. But it is wrong. Government has to be the solution. This mess won't just right itself. It is capitalism gone amok. It is capitalism at its' worst. Somebody has to do something. Frankly the fear of socialism is far, far, far less offensive to me than fascism and having people at the top who are personally greed driven, people at the top who think that it is okay to send our people to die in a senseless war, people at the top who lie, cheat and steal and don't give a damn about the working class in this country. People who are willing to corrupt our election process to get into power are not the people that will fix this problem. This Obama plan may not be what I want for this America (and it isn't), but I don't have a better idea or plan to fix the devastation that the Bush administration left behind and neither do you. Frankly I would think that you'd hope that this works. The alternative is even less attractive.

plain: "That's why I questioned BJean's assertation that he has been the most effective of any president in her lifetime." You very conveniently left out that I said "so far". There has never been a president who has been as proactive and consumed with righting all the wrongs that came before him than Obama did so quickly after taking office. You know if there hadn't been so much fraud at the voting booths, there's a very real chance that Bush would have NEVER been elected. As for Jeb Bush, that is laughable. Of course I would have said the same thing about Geroge W., except for the fact that I didn't account for their ability to corrupt the voting system in the United States. So Jeb it may be. Hopefully we finally have a bead on the Republicans and there's always a chance that we can learn from our mistakes. President Obama was able to put a stop to it. Congress didn't get a chance to vote on the initial bombing of Iraq. Dubya got them to give him the ability and discretion to shock and awe whenever and wherever he wanted to. It was a Republican dominated Congress and even the Democrats voted to give him that power. Freaking idiots. That rule was put into place for the very reason that wound up happening. But when you said "...unless congress abdicated all their powers..." it was simply a diversion from the truth. They didn't abdicate ALL their powers and I certainly never said they did. Republicans are trying like crazy to re-write history already. It's downright scary. Yeah, Jeb Bush scary. But I believe that they can pull it off. If you're willing to do anything - ANYTHING - to get what you want, your powers are pretty much unlimited. You ask what was the name of the group that worked behind the scenes in the White House - are you kidding? Yeah, they had a name that people used when referring to them, but it wasn't a formal name. I can't believe that you think that there would be a formal name for a surreptitious group of power-wielding, greed-driven politicos running things in this country. Have you really stuck your head in the sand plain, or just trying to forget what went on in Washington? You know, pretend that it didn't happen. Re-write history. Well I can tell you that a teeny tiny bit of Fox is enough to make your head spin. I watch it to know what the crazies are spouting this week and they never cease to amaze me. That you don't see it that way is not too surprising. After all, you're just sure that President Obama is going to turn our country all socialist. That's oooh so scary. Nevermind that we just went through many years of fascism. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

Sorry gadget you're putting two and two together and getting four. If you want to talk about stats, let's talk about the overpopulation of the planet. Let's talk about children dying from starvation and disease. Let's talk about some of the grim statistics in the United States of children having children. It could get so bad that the government might decide to pass a law that bans children from having children and forces 12 or 13 year old girls to undergo abortions rather than giving birth to babies. What we were talking about, because you brought it up, is how many deaths of women occur due to botched illegal abortions that we can prove, statistically. And how many women die from complications from childbirth. We all know that if no one ever had an abortion, there would never be deaths from abortion - either deaths to babies or deaths to mothers. The fact of the matter is that no matter how many people decide that they are for a law against abortion - a law that prohibits women from making their own decisions with regard to abortion - there will still be abortions. Just because you can state that fewer abortions will happen if it is illegal is not justification for passing a law to take this very personal and sometimes gut-wrenching decision out of the hands of the people who are personally involved. I am always blown away by the fact that so many people in the anti-choice movement are vehemently oppposed to any kind of gun restriction or registration and also support the death penalty. I'm not talking about you. I'm pretty sure that you have told us that you are not in favor of capital punishment and that you do not oppose gun control. But for many people involved in the so-called "pro life" movement, it makes that term "pro-life" a misnomer and bogus to the core. As a matter of fact, right now there are right wing nuts who are jumping up and down and screaming about how President Obama is going to take their guns away when in fact, he has not made a move to do so and it isn't even something that he has been talking about. Those are the kinds of fear tactics that right wingers have used for years to control people. I think Americans are beginning to figure out that it is a political tactic - at least I sure hope so.

One more quick hit: Volcano lady: good post!! I didn't mention Rush Limbaugh because I hate to think that people really take him seriously. Perhaps you're right and that is the source of all this trash talk. Because it is way too canned, the very thing they seem to accuse me of. I can't imagine why anyone would continue to defend the Bush administration. You're right, if it isn't a daily dose of Fox, it's probably good ole' Rush. The "new voice" of the Republican party, eh? God help us.

Whoo-hoo, gotcha stirred up, did I? Well I know this is going to disappoint you all but I gotta hit the sack. And Beth I did not insult your intellect. I made a point not to do that. I'd love to go head to head with you plain, but it's just too darned late. Answer my questions tonight and do an actual rebuttal of the content of mine that you quoted (beyond the Fox comment) and I'll be happy to give you mine tomorrow. I'd like for once for one of you to actually explain exactly why Bush's fascism is so much better than Obama's potential socialism. Or do you really not know about Bush going to Congress and getting them to allow him to have free reign over the decision of when and where to go to war? Do you not know how the White House was run during the Bush administration? Are you unaware of the Cheney group that held the real power? If ya'll don't watch Fox, what media sources do you ascribe to?

While I was posting mine, you were posting this: "Mothers die from both legal and illegal abortions now. The statistics for illegal abortions pre-Roe were grossly exaggerated, and it's been demonstrated over and over again." The only place that it has been demonstrated over and over again is in the anti-choice propaganda. As I said, there is no possible way that you or anyone else can know how many illegal abortions were done, pre-Roe v. Wade. And there is no way that you can know how many illegal abortions are done today. These kinds of claims make your entire argument look exaggerated and overblown. Women die every single day from childbirth. We do have those stats. And we do have the stats for legal abortion deaths. I'm sure you have that in your arsenal. How many deaths actually happen as a result of abortions? How many deaths happen due to complications from childbirth? Now don't go pulling numbers from your anti-abortion websites. Let's have the real numbers published by reputable research firms. I have no doubt that you have this information at your fingertips. I know this is going to disappoint you, but I'm off to bed. It's very late here and even though this is fun times, I have to give it up for today. Ciao.

I disagree with all your follow-up posts, needless to say, gadget. I wish it were as simple as you like to make it. But it just is not. You cannot prove that there are fewer abortions, percentage-wise, when abortion is illegal. You do not have that kind of information. No one has compiled that data because it is impossible to obtain. Any stats that you throw out on that issue are meaningless and trumped up. And anti-choice people definitely have the mission to make women feel guilty. They prove it with all of their anti-abortion literature and movies and propaganda. I understand why. They believe that a fertilized egg is a complete human being. They are completely wrong, but they believe it. And because it is their belief, they also believe that it is their duty to save all the babies. I understand it, but I disagree with their tactics and I disagree with their message. As far as you knowing more about the anti-choice movement than I do, I am certain that you are correct about that. I have no doubt that you could (and may) write a book on it. You know so much and are so involved that you could tour the country giving lectures on the similarities between slavery and abortion and that abortion is murder, pure and simple. But I happen to know what is right for this country and for women and I know that the anti-choice movement is wrong for women and wrong for this country.

Btw Beth, I have a small, wee confession. I really wasn't thinking of you when I suggested that if one changed the channel and read an opposing viewpoint one might learn something. Obviously you don't think that shoe fits you because you don't watch Fox and you have many and varied sources for keeping abreast of all things political, eh? Well good for you!

It became the political thread when people decided that Octomom's living on the dole related to presidential politics. I didn't bring it up. I only threw in my 2 cents. Talk about buzz words... you have some corkers. I feel very sorry for you and others who are scared spitless of President Obama's proposed plans. You have NO hope. You didn't like Bush, you HATE Obama. It's all hopeless, right? I can't imagine what kind of life you have. It must be depressing as heck to live in your head. Well I'm a whole lot older than you are and I've seen a lot more politics. And yeah, after living through everything I've seen that has occurred in politics, dirty and good, I have hope. President Obama is the most intelligent and effective (so far) president we've had in my lifetime. But the jury is still out. I may learn that he has sold us down the river just as badly as his predecessor. But I have hope. I cling to hope. I have to. If I didn't have hope for my country, I would be too depressed to function.

gamyj, the key sentence in your post is: "the fact is that in the united states of america abortion is legal, so right now reguardless of anybodys feelings or thoughts woman have the legal right have to an abortion." The reason it is so important is because there is a very heavy-handed movement going on to try to change that fact and make abortion illegal. If you think it is a few folks who are making a little noise, you're wrong. They are ruthless and do not cut women any slack in any area of this debate. They do not believe that we can simply "agree to disagree." They believe that they are the only ones who are correct in this debate and they will not rest until they see to it that laws are passed to take away every American woman's right to choose. Including yours. If we don't fight it, we will be the losers.

plain: the voice of reason. It's almost like a dream scenario. :thumbdown: Sorry dude, I feel it is my duty to jump into the fray. Screw Octomom. Her story is old news. But don't worry the cameras will keep you abreast of her antics. In the meantime... Where were all you buggers who are slamming Obama's plan to revitalize the economy, when George W. was funneling it down a rat hole in Iraq? When George and his cronies were running a fascist government right here in river city, you said nothing. Now you're calling Obama's plans socialist. How can you possibly justify the things that Bush did? He usurped all the power from Congress and had his merry way with us. He has been threatened by other countries that if he sets foot in them, they will arrest him for war crimes. And you sound proud of the things that he did because he made us safer? I can't believe that we were all such idiots that we thought we were impotent against him and his cronies. Hell after 8 years, we had forgotten what it was like for a president to communicate with us. To get up and take responsibility. Instead of our past president who would hide out most of the time and only speak with scripts because when he spoke spontaneously, he said something utterly stupid or profane. (Remember for instance, the "shit" remark he made to the British Prime Minister on camera with a live feed?) And you fault a president who gives a damn about the people of this country? You call that being socialist? You people come up with a friggin' plan that will work better than what he has put forth and I will support it. But I have no illusions that the Republicans, either the middle road or right wing extremists, have a viable plan. If they did, they might have used it over the past 8 years. Nah, they were too busy getting rich and richer. You listen to too much canned crap on Fox network. Don't you understand how you are being used and manipulated by Rupert Murdoch and his lap dogs? Broaden your horizons. Don't listen to me. Read a book, watch a newscast with opposing viewpoints. A light bulb might come on. You might learn something.

"Out there"? This hypothetical scenario is "out there"? This is a fine example of the utterly bizzare notions that anti-choice people love to bring into any discussion or debate. I believe their motive is to plant seeds of guilt within women. Good Lord woman! Will you stop at nothing? You don't seem to believe that you can go too far in your Quest to take women's rights away. You keep saying that you don't want to take women's rights away and now you're suggesting a scenario where the government actually invades a woman's physical body. You also keep saying that because I believe that the government should have no power over women's reproductive organs, pregnant or unpregnant, that I advocate abortion during the entire 9 months of pregnancy. The fact is not that I advocate abortion at all. I advocate women having the right to make their own decisions on this emotion laden question. There is no reason to draw lines or conjure up specific dates where a fetus is viable. It is irrelevant to me. It is none of yours or the governments business what a woman decides to do when she has become pregnant when she did not plan it and when she cannot safely have a child. That is my opinion and the reason why I participte so strongly on this thread. I know that your opinion is that at the point of conception, when an abortion occurs or D & C occurs or spontaneous physical abortion caused by nature occurs, that it is killing a baby. I just couldn't disagree in any stronger terms than I am disagreeing right now. THIS IS NOT A MATTER FOR YOU OR THE GOVERNMENT TO DECIDE! THIS IS A MATTER BETWEEN A WOMAN AND HER CONSCIENCE; A WOMAN AND HER HUSBAND; A WOMAN AND HER DOCTOR; A WOMAN AND HER GOD. PASSING A LAW THAT WILL ALLOW OUTSIDERS TO CONTROL THE QUESTION OF BIRTH OR ABORTION WILL NOT WORK! IT DID NOT WORK. IT WILL NOT WORK. IT IS FOLLY. WOMEN ARE THE DECIDERS. AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ULTIMATE DECIDERS WHEN IT COMES TO BIRTH OR ABORTION. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK ANY OTHER WAY. As I have said many, many, many times before. I commend you for your work within the parameters of counseling, adoption as an option, support for unwed mothers and all that you do - EXCEPT - I do not believe that you should be trying to pass a law to make abortion illegal because it doesn't work. It has been proven. It will not prevent abortions. It will kill women. Prevention of abortions could work if you use your passion for all of those unborn babies by helping women who are vulnerable and suffering as a result of becoming pregnant when they should not have become pregnant and do not want to be pregnant. Period.

You can't lay a zygote or fertilized egg out on a table and expect it to assemble itself and become a fully produced human being, just like you can't gather some car parts and expect it to assemble itself and be considered a car. Without the mother, who can be considered the robot, mechanic, the painter, the oiler and fully the producer of the end product (a baby), there will be no baby. This analogy is growing on me. A baby is the sum of his parts. As for gadget's comment: "Ergo, legal through all 9 months of pregnancy. If, according to you, no restrictions should be placed on it at all, it means legal through natural birth." The whole decision-making process should not be in the hands of the government. So restrictions are not necessary without laws allowing the government to tell women when they can (or maybe even they can't) have a baby. It's just not something that should be governed by a law. Only the women involved are knowledgable about each and every component that will rule the decision-making process. We sure don't need the government or a group of zealots telling women in this country what they can or cannot do when they are faced with an unplanned, unwanted, impossible to endure pregnancy.

gadget sez: "You don't produce a baby through labor and delivery. You simply deliver what has already been produced." I disagree. I don't believe you can say that a baby has been produced if it is in an embryonic state or a zygote, or a fertilized egg or whatever terminology you wish to use. Just because you have parts of a car on an assembly line, doesn't make it a car that has been produced. Not until it rolls across the assembly line and is a complete model is it considered a car that has been produced. Prior to that, it is just bits and pieces that will some day comprise a car but it is not a car, per se. You can even have all the pieces of the car in the same place, but until it gets all put together, with all the nuts, bolts and oil and grease where it all belongs can it be a car. I know that you like to think that a fertilized egg is a fully complete baby - a human being with all the rights and priviledges of evey other human walking the face of the earth. But I respectfully and totally disagree and I believe that I am right every bit as much as you believe that you are right - furthermore, I believe that most dispassionate and scientific people agree with me. Yeah, I agree that this is a pretty far out analogy, but it is not nearly as far out as some of the ones that the anti-choice people toss around.

gadget claims: "Since when are we only talking first trimester? You've said over and over that abortion should be legal through all 9 months of pregnancy." You're full of prunes. I have absolutely NEVER made one comment about abortion being legal through all 9 months of pregnancy. I have never had any reason to state my feelings on that topic. Abortion is not a matter that should be decided by the government. EVER! It is a matter that is always to be decided strictly by the woman involved and whoever else she chooses to include in her decision-making; medicial personnel, significant other, God, etc. As for the definition of embryo I took my information straight from the dictonary. I will defer to you of course, because we all know you make this such a top priority in your life, you obviously are more well-educated on the proper terminology than I.

Good points Carrie and rodriguez.

To procreate means to produce (young); to beget (offspring). The act of fertilizing an egg is conception, which by definition is the beginning of a process or chain of events. You don't procreate or beget an offspring until you've actually produced an actual offspring. A fertilized egg does not denote having procreated (produced) an offspring. And btw, an "embryo" is the human organism after the first 3 months of conception and thereafter it is considered a fetus. Initially it is a fertilized egg which must become implanted in the proper place (not the tubes, for instance) and goes through a process of development until it is considered an embryo and then later a fetus. All this is for some people purely academic and argument about whether the fertilized egg is a separate entity seems to be an attempt to convince people that abortion in the first trimester is murder. As far as most pro-choice people are concerned however, that is balderdash. Balderdash being nonsense or senseless talk or writing. :crying:

The thing anti-choice folks can't change and can't make go away, no matter how hard they argue that a baby is a separate entity, is that a fertilized egg cannot survive without a mother's heart, circulatory system, reproductive organs, ability to process nutrition, etc., etc., etc. The embryo or fertilized egg, has no individual rights separate from its' mother. It is not a separate entity. It is a part of its' host mother. It does not become a separate entity until it is a separate entity. To be a separate individual person, it must be a separate and individual person. Until a baby can live and breathe on its' own, the host mother has the sole responsibility for its' growth and survival. The government has no right to incarcerate women, put them on watch for 24/7, and force them to procreate.

We understand your insistence that abortion is killing. However we disagree with you and the law is on our side. And the law has been written according to the Constitution of the United States. For you interject yourself in a woman's life and insist that she may not make her own choice when it comes to her reproductive organs, you are absolutely abridging her rights and her freedom. What you want is, by definition, anti-choice. To deny that is insincere. It is understandable that you wish to intervene since you believe that abortion is killing. It is also understandable to most people that it is entirely wrong to equate killing children, abusing toddlers, maiming one's spouse or owning a slave with terminating an unwanted, unplanned, unhealthy and dangerous pregnancy.