BJean

A fetus is not a person. That's why the government has no say in the conception or ban of conception or other controls over conception of children. Do you prefer the way it is in some countries where the government tells it's citizens whether they can have babies and/or what sex they are allowed to have? As far as I am concerned what you want it no different. And are you Delusional much? Yes, indeed. No question about it. Athough you didn't have to spell it out for us. But thanks.

gadget, I own my child. It is mine and no one elses. When it is in my womb, it is as much a part of me as my skin and bones. When I become pregnant against my wishes, and when I cannot bear to bring a child into the world, it is my decision how to handle it. You are not qualified to intervene and try to control me and my decisions; my child is totally my responsibility for the rest of his or her life. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with me. I do not care how lofty your goals are with regard to my child, I do not care one whit about your desire to save all potential humanity. Knock yourself out. But stay the hell out of my womb and keep out of my way if I choose to have an abortion for whatever personal reasons I have. Your goals may have goodness behind them, but they may not. For all I know you're in the baby bartering business. It really doesn't matter at all to me what you do or why you claim to do it. But your rights end at my front door. I am sorry that you just don't get it. I'm sorry that you are so determined to take my rights away. But I will not let you.

rodriguez, I have also found myself standing with a razor over my wrist. Sometimes it really seems like the only way out of gut-wrenching pain. But it isn't. There is help available if you choose to get it. Although sometimes it takes a whole lot of determination to find it. Sometimes it requires time to pass in order to handle the shock and nearly unbearable sadness that envelopes you. There aren't always answers out there and you don't always have to feel that prayer is making a difference. But sometimes just the right person to talk to, just the right music or book can help you cope and become just the thing that will help you get through a very low spot in your life. Whatever you need, I hope that you will be able to find it and that the pain will begin to fade. There is so much to live for and I promise you that there are so many wonderful things in your future, the work that it takes to be able to smile again, even laugh outloud again, will be worth the effort it takes to get you there. You will be seeing your mom soon and a big hug from her will undoubtedly feel good. I hope you will have the time and opportunity to have a good long talk and you will be able to tell her exactly how you are feeling. I know she will do everything she can to comfort you. There really aren't any hard and fast answers that will automatically cause it all to make sense to you - unfortunately. But over time, you will be able to deal with whatever hand life has dealt you. We always learn more from pain than we do from pleasure. Yeah, some of us get to be pretty smart from what we go through - what we manage to survive. I have faith in YOU. I know you will get through all this. I hope that you will find something that will make you feel better right now, even if it is only a few seconds out of your day. Allow yourself to enjoy something, you certainly deserve to, and it takes nothing away from the real sadness that you are experiencing. It merely helps you survive.

You have no rights to that accumulation of tissue called a fertilized egg. If it is a baby, you have no rights to that baby. You have no right to intervene on its' behalf whether it is a "separate" entity or not. But to clarify further, it is absolutley NOT a separate entity until it develops into a separate entity. When it is a part of the mother, living and residing in her womb, it is a part of the mother. Even if you can't see it that way, think of it like this: if you believe that it is a separate entity, it's like all the embryos that exist in the world. YOU have no right to them. You cannot go intervene on their behalf and choose what will become of them. YOU do not own them, its' parents own them and make all of the decisions for them. It is against the law for people to compel frozen embryos to be implanted and ultimately cause them to develop into babies against the parents' wishes. And that is the way it has to be. It is wrong, grossly wrong, for you or anyone else to make decisions about my fertlized egg, my embryo, my fetus, my unborn baby or anyother name you wish to give this "separate entity" that you want to control the destiny of. You have no rights when it comes to my body, and you have no rights to my fertilized egg.

patty, you can't imagine how cruel you are. I know you have no idea. Because you keep saying that you don't hate anyone and that you love everyone. I just will never understand how someone who claims to love everyone can be so frickin' insensitive and cold. You say that you understand God and the Bible, and for sure you can quote scripture, but I think you have a very limited understanding of God's love. You demonstrate your narrow-minded and very limited definition of God's love everyday.

gadget: "Personal choice ends where another person's body begins." Amen and hallelujah to that statement. I couldn't have said it better myself. Your choice ends where my body begins. Period. End of story. According to our laws, you are completely free to choose whatever course of action you deem proper when it comes to your own body. And I to mine. Figuratively putting your hands inside my body to save a being that is growing inside me is absolutely not within your rights and the law says that you may not choose to do that. Thank God that our President understands the difference here between what you propose and what is the right thing to do here in America. And I hope you're reading, carefully, all that has been posted regarding Christianity here. You can't be serious when you say that people who are against women's right to choose has nothing at all to do with religion. As patty will tell you, Christianity and religion made this nation and it continues to play a role in how this country is run. I don't like it, but it is obviously true. Most Americans have been endoctrinated at an early age in the Christian religion and Bible teachings. Without that, then it would easily be considered a scientific issue. But you can't remove the impact that religion plays in this debate just because it makes it a more difficult argument to win.

Hey darlin' thanks for sharing!! I can always use a laugh! And they say laughter is the best medicine. I've always been a proponent of using it even in very trying situations. Like going into or out of surgery. Might as well get everybody in a good mood if they're going to be seeing some of your insides, right? lol

I'm no gynocologist, but it makes me wonder if her uterus got in the shape it's in because she's birthed so many babies? That's not even taking into account how many times she's used the IVF procedure. The darned thing is overworked and underpaid. Can't expect it not to complain, eh? Hmmm. Wonder if this is God's way of saying "Enough already!"

Well because he shares your take on politics, etc., you've decided he's intelligent? Right, sure, I get that. And you know for a fact that I'm not intelligent, eh? Well you can't blame a girl for trying. Boo hoo. I sure wish I was as smart as Beth. And as funny! I could get some stand up comic work. :cursing:

Sorry, I mean to be here for you, but sometimes I really tire of exchanging barbs with gadget. On the other hand, I just can't let certain of her posts go by without some rebuttal. You actually do not need my help though. You're handling the thing beautifully!

I guess you like to pick on your butt boils as much as you do me. Glenn Beck - what a notion. You all just think of me as your resident Glenn Beck. Yeah, that's the ticket. Glenn Beck is a commentator - not a newscaster - not anything else but a commontater. That's what he claims to be. Just someone who is willing to put his ideas out there. He definitely don't need no stinking research or facts and he ain't even guaranteeing that what he says is even true. All agreed that I'm your equivalent of Glenn Beck? If so, I'm sure I'll feel the love all the way to my little office. Suweet!

Awwww. You people miss me. You really miss me. Buuahahahahahahaha!

gadget: "Which is why I say, WE DO NOT KNOW!!! It could be at 8 or 9 weeks as the one article I posted believes, it could be at 20 weeks as one of your articles believes, or it could be at some other time. One of the articles you posted even said it's sometime after birth (do you really believe that could be the case)?" Interesting that you admit that "we do not know" yet you have persisted in posting links that claim to know. Interesting also that you claim that this is not a "religious" issue, that it is a "scientific" issue. It is quite obvious that one's belief on this issue is inextricably intertwined with one's religious beliefs. It is understandable why you back away from the religious aspects of the argument. You can't win your case if it is solely based on religious beliefs. With science, it is far more easily debatable. And if one is willing to use extremely biased propaganda and questionable pictoral resources, it becomes even easier to make the case that babies are human beings that feel pain and have all the rights of a fully developed person. But when pushed against the proverbial wall, even you admit that "we don't know." All of this, all the discussion, all the links, all the outrageous comparisons to slavery, all the emotional baggage that each and every one of us bears, whether religion-based or not, points to the one fact that we all should know and admit - this is an issue that neither you or I should be deciding for each other. This is an issue that is far too complicated and far too personal to reduce it to a simple case of right and wrong. There are occasions when even you would probably admit, if you were being truthful, that an abortion is the only viable and reasonable action to be taken. All this arguing scientific, religious, philosophical and sometimes just simply emotional issues just prove exactly what the pro-choice proponents believe. Women HAVE the right to choose - no matter what you say, no matter what the government says. We have that right. It is our religion that comes into play. It is our scientific research that we are able to interpret, and our emotional and philosophical opinoins that count when we have to make a choice. Yours count when they apply to you.

It's true patty. I don't know you from Adam's off Ox. (long shaggy dog story) All any of us can do here is write about what we know and what we observe and respond to what someone else has posted.

You're too kind. It's a mutual admiration society with you and me.

Fox keeps tossing itself out there. And it is quite amusing when you defend Fox by saying that ALL THE OTHERS are left wing numb(?) nuts. Who's delusional? Not you! Noooooo. EVERYBODY in the media but Fox is extreme. ALL the others except Fox. Nobody but Fox gives the straight skinny. Only Fox reports the truth. EVERYBODY else in the whole world doesn't give truthful accountings of the news. Not ABC, not NBC, not CBS, not CNN, not MSNBC, not the BBC - no one but Fox gets it right. And you mean WAAAAYYY right, eh? Well if you don't watch it, how the hell do you know? And if you don't watch the others on a regular basis, how the hell would you know? You divine the answers? Cool trick. Why don't you share your secret to gleaning the pure truth from the media? I'm sure everyone would love to be enlightened. I know I sure would. You must be an amazing brainiac. I will sit at my computer in anticipation of having your brilliant insight and wisdom to expose the awesome truth in the public media that only your mind is able to reveal.

Oh, ok, patty. Now I get it. You're perfect. I am sorry that in reading your posts I came to the incorrect conclusion that you are an intolerant, judgemental, hard-hearted person. I should have known better. Afterall, you've been quite clear about how you don't judge people, you just like to point out that they are sinners and in what ways they sin. You may sound like you hate people but you don't. You just hate the sin. And you're here to tell them when they sin. Otherwise, you love the sinners the same as you love everyone. I'm glad that you took the time to explain all that to me. I sure had you figured wrong.

Left wing media had nothing at all to do with what happened that election night. It was reported everywhere. Except perhaps that Fox News might have done everything in their power to use smoke and mirrors to make their viewers think it was simply a "conspiracy theory." Suckers.

Anti-choice is much more descriptive of the anti-abortion movement than pro-life. They are not all 100% in favor of making 100% of abortions illegal. So they are not all 100% pro-life when it comes to abortion. There are usually some qualifiers, like rape and incest. Maybe gross deformities. Maybe other conditions that haven't been mentioned here would be severe enough for those folks to agree that an abortion is necessary. Pro-choice couldn't be much more accurate than it is in describing people who believe that women's reproductive choices should not be made for them by the government. At no time, ever, do they think it is appropriate for the government to intervene in women's lives with regard to them having or not having babies. Pro-choice people may or may not believe that abortion is a good thing. They may even think that abortion is a very bad thing. But they all agree that the choice of whether or not to have an abortion is a right that women should have, whether they believe in it or not.

The questions you raise truly underscore the reason why this should not be a legal issue. It is a personal issue. It should not be the state's right to tell women what they must do if they become pregnant. It's just so wrong on so many levels. If it were actually a black and white issue, where there were no variables, no problem areas, it would probably be different. But this is not a simple thing. It is very complicated and it is very, very, very important. People are qualified and able to make these decisions for themselves without government intervention. And they will make these decisions whether the government says they can or not.

Did you ignore the stories in the Bible about Jesus, patty? The ones where He didn't judge anyone, He accepted people, showed them love and thereby won their hearts. You had a perfect opportunity to be a loving force in that woman's life and yet you chose to look down on her for being a smoker. You had an opportunity to win that woman over to God, and yet you chose to not represent what God's word says about how we should do unto others here on earth. When you smoked for those 10 years, I wonder how you would have felt if you were hungry and someone in a church or on the street turned you away becaused they judged you to be unworthy. Tough love is something you do to intervene in someone's life so that they will get the help they need. Tough love is talking to someone, offering your support, extending a hand in helping them beat whatever problem that they can't handle for themselves. You didn't "tough love" that woman, you turned her away. There are smarter and better ways to teach a child and a smoker than making them go hungry. What you suggest as tough love is tough all right, but it has nothing to do with love.

patty you judged the smoking woman just as sure as I'm sitting here. You made the judgement that she had enough money for food if she had enough money for cigarettes. You made the judgement that she had purchased those cigarettes with her own money. You made the judgement that she was not trying to quit smoking with every ounce of effort she had in her. It was you who made the call on all of those things in one fell swoop. If you were donating the food, then your heart was not in the right place if you were passing judgement on those who came to you for help. Just as Jesus did not pass judgement on Mary Magdelen and just as Jesus came to the assistance of the woman in the Bible who committed adultry. (Those were not necessarily mutually exclusive acts.) The point was made in the Bible that it is not for you to judge others no matter what their sin because you too are a sinner. So to set yourself up as a missionary of sorts, a do-gooder who says she wants to help someone who is hungry, but instead judges them to be someone who is not worthy enough to share your food, is not only someone who has cast the first stone, but you do so knowingly with malice aforethought. You know exactly what Jesus stood for - you can quote the Bible from memory - you KNOW BETTER, but you chose to cast the first stone. The smoking woman should have walked away and been thankful that she hadn't accepted food that had such hateful stipulations attached. And how in the world do you know that God didn't send that woman to test you?

I'm still reeling from the confession that one supposedly "good" person would turn away a supposedly "bad" person from being given food because they are smoking a cigarette. Judgement: what one superior person decides is right or wrong activity committed by another person.

I am not at all sure that Kat is posting what she is because she supports prostitues. I think she is trying very hard to understand women who might be lured by the money that they cannot make by working in conventional jobs that they are qualified for. There's a difference, for instance, in wanting to legalize prostitution and supporting prostitution. Religious fanatics don't see it that way. But their way only serves to keep those women categorized as "criminals" and yet their work is victimless. I don't see many people who consider prostitution a sin lobbying for the men's names to be made public and for them to be thrown into jail and prosecuted if they pay for the services of a prostitute. Why is it always the women who have to be punished and not the men? Why it is far more acceptable for men to only be looked down on for going to a prostitute for sex, but the women need to be punished by being prosecuted and jailed?

Wait a minute. Wasn't there a famous character in the Bible who was a prostitute? And didn't Jesus embrace her? And what about not "casting the first stone" eh?