BJean

There is one thing I would like for you to think about and all I'm asking is that you just think about it: stop saying bad things about and to people and then refusing to admit that you are the person who is saying those words. Stop saying that God said them and that you are only the messenger. God doesn't like it. He wants you to bring lost souls into his fold and you are causing people to question Him and His potent message. You should be a good witness, not one who casts out others for their sins. He wants to have the opportunity to show them His love. He wants the opportunity to win souls over and to save them. You are putting yourself between God and those people who need Him. You are not doing God's work the way He tells you to in the Bible. For some reason you have become derailed in the mission that he has charged you with. You may need to take some time out. Do some serious soul searching. God will reveal the truth to you, I am just sure of it.

As far as the Battygreen moniker is concerned, I didn't start it. Someone else did. The first time I read it, I thought it was insensitive. But then I began to understand why she called you that. And no it wasn't used out of anger. Just observation. And let me tell you that I did not say the things I did out of anger. I am not mad at you. I am simply telling you and others what I observe to be the truth. You continue to duck the responsibility for the BAD things that you say to and about people. God is not the inspiration for that. You've come up with it all on your own. But you'll never be big enough to admit it, that is obvious. I suppose that pompous attitude is what is goading you and others into doing the things that you do to people even though you are frightfully wrong. You should know that I do not need you to be any kind of link between God and me. We have a relationship just between us. He guides me in everything that I say and do. He has asked me to lead you out of your darkness. I have to admit at this point that I am not equipped to get that task done. I will continue to try to show you the light. I wish I had the words that God wants me to share with you. Perhaps in time, he will reveal them more specifically to me.

Lydia: I believe this bears repeating: "To quote Voltaire: Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." I appreciate your posts, btw. Some fresh insight to this thread that is much needed, thanks!

battygreen: "If only there weren't those extreme christians who desire to eliminate all of the 'goodness'(sinfulness)in the world, we would all get along just fine." By your 'goodness', I speak of abortions which doesn't kill babies, but in fact gives women a 'right' to their own bodies, gay marriages because it's not a sin to have sex with the same sex, their just people in love, and prostitution as a legal profession because anyone should be able to 'choose' what they want to do.(sarcasm added).They will say that we "HATE"... Do not presume that I am not a Christian. Do not presume that you have the the sole proper interpretation of the Bible. And do not misquote me. At least do not do that if you want to be taken seriously by others. You have insinuated that I wrote these words: "If only there weren't those extreme christians who desire to eliminate all of the 'goodness'(sinfulness)in the world, we would all get along just fine." and I did not. You also insinuated that I used the word "hate" and I did not use the word "hate" or "hateful" in the context that your post did. You are exactly the kind of person who is so extreme, so intolerant, so quick to toss out the words God and the Bible, that you are the type of person who does inspire wackos to do your bidding. And you know it. And I do not doubt that you are among those who applaud the death of Dr. Tiller because you consider him a mass murderer. You don't get by with the cop out that this is indicative of the second coming. You don't get to blame everybody else for the distain they have for your words. You have no excuse. You are being irresponsible, ugly, judgemental, intolerant and self-serving. You hide behind the Bible and refuse to take responsiblity for your tirades. It is never you who calls someone a murderer, it's God. It's never you who spews hate, it's God. God hates. God hates the sin. God hates, hates, hates. But you don't. You only tell us that God does. YOU are the kind of person who will bring on the second coming. YOU are the kind of person who Jesus spoke to about love and forgiveness, no matter what the sin. YOU are not fooling anyone. It is YOU who is spewing the hate and inciting people to feel they are holier than everyone else and that they are merely God's instrument when they kill someone they disagree with. People like you are feeding a malignant cancer in this country. And by God, if you and your ilk don't straighten up, learn to respect others, learn to tolerate different beliefs, learn how to love people, learn how to help people, in spite of the fact that they smoke or drink or commit other heinous sins that YOU HATE, then we're all definitely in for a lot more killing and grief. Please, please, please, for the love of God look inward for a change. Stop telling everyone else how wrong they are. Take responsibility for your hate. Stop blaming God for your own personal feelings. Understand and take responsibility for how your words affect people. No one is knocking Christianity here. No one is knocking the Bible or God or Jesus or Christians. People are criticizing the ones who are talking the talk that says that they are the only ones who know what is right and wrong. People are being criticized for intolerance and dislike of their fellow countrymen, not God! People are being criticized for using low-down tactics to make their case. You are and people like you are the ones who are using God and who are likely to bring on the second coming; not everybody else in the world who are trying to love and get along. It hangs on the shoulders of those who believe that murdering a murderer is fine as long as they get to choose who gets murdered. And if I haven't been perfectly clear: no one is blaming God or the Bible or Christianity for the ills of the world; they are blaming the people who are out to harm others with their words and their deeds.

Praise the Lord!

I just watched a man speak who is a former anti-abortion activist who sat in counsel with people like Pat Robertson and they advised people like Bush on the abortion issue. He is apologizing tonight for all the things he did and said that he feels are responsible for inciting the fringe idiots to do the things they have done like marching on abortion clinics, intimidating women outside those clinics and the murders of Tiller and others. He believes that the irrational talk that the Republicans are doing to discredit President Obama and the claims that they make like "he's a muslim" and "he doesn't love this country" and "he's a socialist" and "he isn't really a natural born citizen" and on and on, are intentionally inciting the crazies to come out of the woodwork. He believes that people like Bill O'Reilly, who claims that although he may have been very extreme and hateful about abortion, he didn't really intend for someone to go murder Tiller, they actually do like the fact that someone killed him and that they won't be disappointed if someone kills Obama. He said he knows this because he used to be an integral part of it. He knows what they used to say in public and also what they said in private. And what they said in private was so extreme, so full of venom, that they knew they were pushing people to commit atrocities. This is a country that is so completely divided right now because of the extremists and far right wing, who will say anything to further their hateful agenda, that it has reached the point where a brain-washed maniac has killed a Christian doctor on the floor of his church. The political climate of this country is even reflected in this thread. So completely divided. One side comparing an abortion to slavery in order to try to influence people into believing that abortion is wrong. People saying that anyone who gets an abortion, for any reason, is a murderer. And if not a "murderer" at least they are killing a fully complete human being. And on and on and on. I am glad that at least one person who has been a large part of this ugly, hate-filled anti-choice rethoric has finally come forward, written a book, and is stating in the media that he knows what he did was wrong and is apologizing and taking responsibility for the murder of Tiller and others.

rodriguez that has always been one of the sore points for me about capital punishment. I do not believe that you can have it both ways. If you believe that any sinner can be forgiven and go to heaven, and that all they have to do is accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, then how can any man/woman pull the switch on them and take away that God given right? Even a killer should have his entire life to be able to experience being born again and none of us should have the right to take that from him. What I am hearing from patty is that it is up to her (and people who believe as she does) to decide who gets to live and die and not only through state mandated executions, but also when an abortion might save a woman's life it is immaterial because to them there are no allowable circumstances that will have a bearing on the decision. They and only they, know when killing someone is permissible and acceptable to God.

:smile::w00t::wink:

Brace yourselves. I'm not sure where she's been, traveling probably. But as soon as gadget reads what's been going on here, she will come back at us with a number of links and quotes that will knock your socks off. We will hardly have the opportunity to counter her comments because she'll beat us all into submission with such a volume of material we will feel beaten down - or at least she will try, if past history is any indication. Most people who've been involved here get so grossed out by the graphic propaganda she posts, they are unwilling to hang in long enough to keep her from being the only voice here. I am very proud of those of you who give a voice to the pro-choice, pro-women folks. Just remember, the majority of Americans do support women's right to choose. If they are asked only "do you believe in abortion?" they might say, "no" but when asked if the government should make the decision versus the woman making it, they overwhelmingly support women's rights to make their own choices. I hope everyone will read the real truth about what President Obama believes regarding this issue and they do not believe the misrepresentations and downright lies that the anti-choice people have put forth about him. If you truly understand what and why he believes what he does, it is very clear and straightforward and it is very hard to argue against. That is, if you believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Lydia, you may be uniquely qualified to state that legalizing prostitution won't solve any of the real problems with human trafficking and various kinds of abuse. And you may certainly be right, but I believe that if we were more honest with outselves and dealt with sex more openly and with the understanding that it is a human biological urge that everyone (basically) has, instead of dealing with it in the prudish, bigoted, crazy way that we do, a whole lot of our sex-related acting out would be curbed. So if we were honest and made prostitution legal, it might be a step in that direction. In European countries and Canada, where nudity on television is normal, where human sexual activity is considered a normal function, and the naked human anatomy is not considered dirty or shocking, they seem to have much healthier sex lives. We make having missionary position sex with our married partners the only kind of sexual activity that is acceptable in the U.S. But of course, that's just the acceptable theory and behavior - not reality! Which I believe is kind of what you were also trying to point out. The way the fundamentalists fight sex education in our schools is actually fundamental in keeping Americans in the dark and thinking of sex as the forbidden fruit.

Here's a API release today on this very topic: WICHITA, Kan. – A man suspected of fatally shooting abortion doctor George Tiller in church was in jail Monday while investigators sought to learn more about his background, including his possible connections to anti-abortion groups. Tiller, 67, was serving as an usher during morning services Sunday when he was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, police said. The gunman fired one shot at Tiller and threatened two other people who tried to stop him. The suspect, identified by one law enforcement agency as Scott Roeder, was taken into custody some 170 miles away in a Kansas City suburb about three hours after the shooting. Tiller had been a lightning rod for abortion opponents for decades. The women's clinic he ran is one of three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy, when the fetus is considered viable, and has been the site of repeated protests for about two decades. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. Roeder, 51, was returned to Wichita and was being held without bail on one count of first-degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault. Formal charges were expected to be filed Monday. Outside the clinic Monday morning, flowers were placed along a fence, and the anti-abortion group Kansas Coalition for Life left a sign saying members had prayed for Tiller's change of heart, "not his murder." In Washington, the U.S. Marshals Service said that as a result of Tiller's shooting, Attorney General Eric Holder had ordered it to "increase security for a number of individuals and facilities." It gave no details. Tiller himself last had protection from the U.S. Marshals in 2001, and he and other doctors received such protection at different times in the 1990s. A man with the same name as the suspect has a criminal record and a background of anti-abortion postings on sympathetic Web sites. In one post written in 2007 on the Web site for the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, a man identifying himself as Scott Roeder asked if anyone had thought of attending Tiller's church to ask the doctor and other worshippers about his work. "Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller," the post said. But police said Sunday that all early indications showed the shooter acted alone. Operation Rescue condemned the killing as vigilantism and "a cowardly act," and the group's president, Troy Newman, said Roeder "has never been a member, contributor or volunteer." He may have posted to the organization's open Internet blog, Newman said, but so have thousands of nonmembers. But Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry, whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood." In 1996, a 38-year-old man named Scott Roeder was charged in Topeka with criminal use of explosives for having bomb components in his car trunk and sentenced to 24 months of probation. However, his conviction was overturned on appeal the next year after a higher court said evidence against Roeder was seized by law enforcement officers during an illegal search of his car. At the time, police said the FBI had identified Roeder as a member of the anti-government Freemen group, an organization that kept the FBI at bay in Jordan, Mont., for almost three months in 1995-96. Authorities on Sunday night would not immediately confirm if their suspect was the same man. Morris Wilson, a commander of the Kansas Unorganized Citizens Militia in the mid-1990s, told The Kansas City Star he knew Roeder fairly well. "I'd say he's a good ol' boy, except he was just so fanatic about abortion," Wilson said. "He was always talking about how awful abortion was. But there's a lot of people who think abortion is awful." The slaying quickly brought condemnation from both anti-abortion and pro-choice groups, as well as President Barack Obama. "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," Obama said in a statement. Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said that Tiller apparently did not have a bodyguard with him in church, although the doctor was routinely accompanied by one. An attorney for Tiller, Dan Monnat, said the doctor's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting. Monnat said in early May that Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. However, Stolz said authorities knew of no threats connected to the shooting. Adam Watkins, a 20-year-old who said he has attended the church his entire life, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service. "We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said. Church members said anti-abortion protesters have shown up outside the church on Sundays regularly. "They've been out here for quite a few years. We've just become accustomed to it. Just like an everyday thing, you just looked over and see them and say, 'Yup they're back again.'" The last killing of an abortion doctor was in October 1998 when Dr. Barnett Slepian was fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. A militant abortion opponent was convicted of the murder. One of Tiller's lawyers and friends, Dan Monnat, told ABC's "Good Morning America" that Tiller had been supported by his wife and children in his decision to continue providing abortion services. "If Dr Tiller is not going to service a woman's right to chose, who will do it?" Monnat said. "Many of those have been terrorized and run off by protesters," he said about other abortion providers. ___ Associated Press writer John Hanna contributed to this report. What anti-choice people must come to grips with is that no matter how many doctors they kill, or how many potests they make, or how many women they threaten by their very presence, doctors will understand the need for them under certain circumstances and will help those women in need. The killer in this case certainly deserves to die if anyone ever did - he marched himself into a church and killed a good Christian doctor. But I hope that instead, he is made an example of how many in the anti-choice movement think and what they believe is an acceptible remedy to a law they disagree with. We need to keep these people away from mainstream Americans, separate them from reasonable people, putting them in jails or whatever is needed to keep the public safe. This man's insane paradoxical thinking is like any assassin's or terrorist's. This man is no better than the men who brought down the World Trade Center, and he calls himself an American and probably calls himself a Christian and hides his hate behind a philosophy of anti-abortion, but he is sadly revealed to be nothing more than a common terrorist/murderer. Perhaps we really do need to keep Guantanamo prison open and throw the likes of this dude in with the rest of the so-called terrorists.

CMS, I hope you have done lots of research and know for certain that the lapband is the proper step for you to take. Have you even considered the sleeve? I hope you will not only look at the early results that most people have when they get different surgical procedures, but that you will make sure you know about the long-term weight loss or re-gaining of weight percentages. I've had the band for almost 3 years and although I had a modicum of success, the longer I have the thing, the more difficult it is to keep the weight off - you know, just like in real life without the band. I have arthritis although not as bad as your fibromyalgia, but I am not able to run or do any exercises that put pressure on my knees. Without good regular exercise, most people do not have the success with the band that they'd hoped. At least not when you are an older bandster.

patty: "ALL humans are born sinners. That's what that means. When I say a baby is innocent, I mean he didn't do anything deserving of death. He's innocent of any crime. Not that he will never be a sinner in his life. We're all sinners. That's like a person who gets convicted of a crime and gets the death penalty. He's deserving of death. He did something wrong. (he's also a sinner) But a baby (even though he is born a sinner also) didn't do anything wrong , yet he gets killed." Logically that makes no sense. How can a clump of fetal matter commit sin? patty: "After thinking about it, I believe a "murderer" is someone who had an evil intent to get rid of another persons life. I think that 'most' pregnant women are not guilty of evil intent. I think they just don't contemplate that another human beings life is ending when they make that decision to abort. They are probably thinking about what they will endure if they continue with the pregnancy and don't think about the baby, because the baby isn't in the eyes view. So, they may not have the "intent" to murder, but that's what the end result of their decision was. A dead person." In many cases, the baby is exactly what the woman is thinking about when she makes her decisions. Yes, she must consider the impact it will have on her life if she chooses to have a child, but most women are also thinking about what the consequences will be for a child that may possibly be handicapped or malformed in some way, or even just because of the dim future it is promised because it is so unwanted. The end result of an early abortion isn't the "murder" of a person, it is the termination of a possibly developing fertilized egg. I emphasize possibly because there are no guarantees with any pregnancy. If you believe that taking another's life is murder, then don't you believe that those persons in the government who are charged with pulling the switch on a convicted killer, should be called murderers? When we condemn a person to death we do it as retribution for a person's crime. But we are not always absolutely certain that a mistake wasn't made in the process of his conviction. Yet even though those mistakes are made, our government still continues to put people to death. How can you approve of that process - when the convicted person could be innocent - and disapprove of the abortion process where you say that the baby is innocent?

You've made some excellent points rodriguez. How can an unborn baby be innocent and yet a sinner? It is one of the puzzlements of certain religious orders who believe that a baby who hasn't been christened is destined for hell because the act of christening washes away the sin they are born with. They don't use those words to explain it, of course.

patty, I'm afraid I don't understand your question: What's his name? I thought you knew all about HIM and that you certainly shouldn't need me to post HIS various monikers. Whether I believe in God or I believe in the rocks, the trees, the sky, the sun and the moon is quite beside the point here. It isn't important for me to publicize my spiritual beliefs, especially to one who is so judgemental, one who is so positive that she has the only real truth to the meaning of life. I will tell you only those things about myself that I want you to know. I only tell as much as I want to in order to make my points. For you to decide that anything I've said is proof of whether I believe in God or not, just shows me how very single-minded and shut off from some very good people you are. And the reason you are shut off from some very good people is because you close the door right in their faces. You are continually working with very limited information because you choose to work that way. If you truly cared about people, you would open your mind, listen to the dialogue, digest its' meaning, ask for clarafication if you do not fully understand, and respond with kind words. You do not work that way. I'm not guessing here. I'm observing.

Lydia: "If it were flat out legal (as opposed to decriminalized for those selling it (not pimps, btw)), that coupled with the dehumanizing attitude held towards sex workers, would only increase the apathy towards them, and do little to decrease the hostility focused on them (and amazingly enough, not the men whose demand creates the damn problem)." Do you believe that this is true for those who work in the industry where it has been legalized? From everything I've read or seen in documentaries, hostility doesn't seem to be prevalent toward the prostitutes where it is a legal profession. The dehumanizing attitude isn't at all the same as it is where prostitution is illegal. The only times the police would even come in contact with a prostitute are when an officer would avail him/herself of those services, or when the prostitute broke some other law. I understand why the sex workers themselves would believe that decriminalization is the first step toward making it legal, and that may be true. But decriminalizing it doesn't at all solve the problems that are currently in play where it is absolutely illegal. All decriminalization accomplishes is that they would not be routinely harrassed by the police and they would not have to go through the humility of being arrested on a regular basis. And they will certainly still be treated with distain and hostility. Only if it is legalized and controlled under a specific set of rules and guidelines will the attitudes toward prostitutes become less apathetic and more accepting as well as there being less hostility toward the sex workers in general. And a very important factor in legalizing prostitution is what I said earlier, that it would create a far safer environment for both the sex workers and the general public.

rodriguez, you have been a trooper. I have been very impressed with your posts and anytime you want to speak with me, about anything, I will be here for you. PM me if you like.

patty: "If you don't believe in God, then where would you even get the concept of a heaven or a hell?" Btw, who says I don't believe in God? That is at least the second time you've projected your feelings on me. You do not know what you're talking about. You do not know me. You have no idea what I believe with regard to God, except that you do know that I do not buy what you're peddling.

patty: "Your grandfather was a wise man." Well not about that, he wasn't. He was completely wrong. patty: "whose common sense should make these decisions?" Do you understand what common sense is? I'm talking about our innate sense of good and bad, right and wrong and the intelligence that we are born with, as well as the intelligence we have from our education, our environment and experiences. patty: "I have NEVER declared that we're all going to Hell if we don't live a certain way. Why do you keep insisting that those are my declarations? What I have said is that those who reject Christ as their Savior will live in eternity without God." Don't you think that your first and second sentences are proven to be completely false by your third sentence? I do. patty: "My brand of preaching? And what brand would that be? I simply tell what is written in the scriptures, and tell it straightforwardly and honestly without sugarcoating it." That's exactly what I'm talking about, dear. patty: "If you don't believe in God, then where would you even get the concept of a heaven or a hell?" Why from you, of course. patty: "Now it's just a 'procedure'? Well, to me, it's not a 'procedure'? It's murder to me. Tome,that 'procedure' is not worthy of good and caring and tolerant, peaceful people!" No my dear, it is not just NOW a procedure. It is what it has been for a very long time. You all like to make it out to be something that it isn't. It is a procedure, simple, quick and given the right circumstances, extremely important. And to me, if a procedure is capable of saving a woman's life, she is worth it and right to consider it. In any case, if it is the woman's life versus the possibility of a fertilized egg's promise of a life, then it is a procedure that is worthy of considering. Good, caring, tolerant and peaceful, and most of all loving people are quite capable of making that decision without your condemnation and exclamation point.

patty all those things you said are similar to things that my great, great, great grandfather wrote as well. He was sure that the end was near because of all the changes he had witnessed that seemed to be prophesied in the Bible. What I believe is that we need to be living our lives as good people whether we believe in a Christian God, Allah or the Sun God. We need to treat others as well as we would like to be treated. We do not need to make decisions based on a book. We need to make decisions based on common sense and an empathy for others. That is what will bring us peace and as much harmony as possible right here, right now. To constantly declare that we're all going to hell if we don't live a certain way that you've decided God wants, doesn't seem to bring peace or harmony. In fact, religion as you preach it seems to exact the opposite from posts here at LBT. And I have witnessed it all my life, your brand of preaching, and I have seen the damage it can do to others. To my way of thinking, heaven can be here on earth if we want it. And so can hell be here on earth if we aren't very, very careful. Various hard-lined beliefs by wholly endoctrinated individuals, with zero tolerance for other beliefs, is exactly what some wars are all about. For me, war is hell on earth. Harshness toward others is hell on earth. Intolerance and superiority are ugly and not worthy of God's creatures and those things can feed a black heart. Righteous indignation over someone needing a procedure that will correct a wrong, is not worthy of good and caring and tolerant and peaceful people.

rodriguez then I am really glad that he is no longer suffering. And that his loved ones do not have to see him in pain.

rodriguez, I am very sorry to hear of your uncle's passing.

The whole reason that I am against making abortion illegal is that we all have different beliefs and we all have different experiences and challenges in life. What would be perfectly acceptable for one woman could mean certain death for another. For hundreds of reasons, valid personal reasons, I oppose the government making the decision for women without their consent, without input from their doctor, without input from anyone who has a vested interest in the situation. This is not the cut and dried issue that you claim that it is - that a fertilized egg has the right to develop, no matter what. A fertilized egg is human tissue. It absolutely is NOT a human being with all the rights of a fully developed person. Whether a woman has a valid reason for terminating a pregnancy or not, she has the right to make that decision for herself. The government, even our church leaders, absolutely do not have the right to tell people what to do in such an extremely important and personal situation. Counsel can be sought and it is right for people to offer help if help is asked for. But coercing women, making decisions for them with regard to their reproductive organs, is just plain wrong.

Since prostitution is currently illegal, I agree that all parties involved should be prosecuted for their involvement in prostitution, whether they are the john, the pimp or the prostitute. But unfortunately in most cases that is not the case. The female is held accountable and the john is looked upon as someone who can't help his biological drives and who is rather expected to give in to the allure of a woman who is willing to have sex with him. What a load of you-know-what! If everyone involved was prosecuted it would be an entirely different industry - in fact, men would probably pass the laws to make it legal. But I can assure you, prostitution would not go away in any case.

Oh geez I just read your last post. What a weekend you had! Sorry your family is having such serious medical problems, especially all at once. What's up with the reenlistment bonus being taken away? I've heard of this happening before. It makes me want to scream and march on Washington!!!