BJean

Oh my, rodriguez. That's terrible news. From the tone of your posts, I believe you're telling us that this is not just a procedure that they want to use to try to improve his situation. It sounds like it might be more in the emergency category, is that true? Does this affect your planned trip to CA to be with your folks? Can you mom and/or dad come to be with you? Is there any way your husband can get leave? I don't mean to sound nosey, but I am very concerned. You know that I am thinking of you, sending you as much strength and support as possible over the internet. If there is anything that I can do, please tell me.

patty - I know you like to believe that people are inherently evil - filled with the desire to sin as often as they can. If it weren't for Christianity and the Bible, you think that we'd all be killing each other, robbing banks, raping, pillaging, and offering our children up to the sun gods for sacrifices. I do not believe that. I believe that people are basically good. I believe that in any case, we would make laws to protect each other and our homes and our lives even if there were no biblical icons in and around our govenment offices. I do believe that some people need religion and the Bible to guide them. Without it, they'd be lost. But I do not believe that all people are hard-wired that way. And I do believe that it is laughable that you scorn science because you think that it disproves the Bible. I believe that you need more faith. Science and the Bible are not mutually exclusive. Science offers far more physical proof and evidence than the Bible does. The Bible just requires a whole lotta faith.

You don't accept what the Supreme Court decides about our laws and yet you listen to Pat Buchanan and believe what he says has any significant value? Pat Buchanan is a politician/commentator. He will say whatever it takes to get people like you to back him. I have watched him quite a lot. He contradicts himself on a regular basis. When that happens, he ducks his head and gives a hearty chuckle. I can't imagine why you would embrace anything he says. Oh yeah I guess I can. It's exactly what you want to hear. Most abortions are performed long before it is much more than a blob of tissue. Not just a whole lot more than a heavy period. No, you don't like that depiction of the abortion process and I don't blame you. But that is more often the case than the scene that anti-choice people like to portray of the abortion procedure. It serves their purpose and those of Pat Buchanan to use the terms that you've used and sure, it does influence some people. But most people understand that the abortion procedure is what it is, and not like a full-grown bounching baby with all its' limbs being sucked out after its' brain has been punctured and scrambled just before the doctor and the mom do a high five.

I was thinking about you rodriguez when I posted that. I was also thinking about my daughter and so many others who have also had horrible life-threatening experiences relating to childbirth. When I posted about her statement earlier I tried to give patty the benefit of the doubt and thought maybe she was just in a hurry and hadn't thought about what she was saying. Now I am thinking that it's all evidence to the contrary.

patty: "If you have had a period and are capable of producing eggs that can be fertilized, then you can give birth to a child. Believe me, if you get pregnant at 12, and allow it to grow for 9 months, a baby will be born. No doubt about it." Please, please, please stop saying that! I understand the debate that some of you are in right now, but that is such an incredibly false statement that nothing you post after that has any credibility. There are millions of women who have periods, eggs, fallopian tubes, uteruses (uteri?) and all the proper equipment fully developed and who may even be able to create an environment for one of her eggs to be fertilized by a sperm, but who cannot carry a child nine months, or even if they can, they are never unable to deliver a live baby. It is the heartbreak of many fine, otherwise healthy women. For you to keep making that statement it is a slap in the face to those who are reading this who haven't been able to sustain a pregnancy and give birth to a baby. You continually reveal your insensitivity toward women and that you have a false notion that you are knowledgeable about the female reproductive process. Everything you seem to know is guided by a blind, brain-washed, religious thought process. It has made you a hard-hearted person who is ill-equipped to make decisions for other women regarding their reproductive process. This is just the kind of thing that God wants you to become enlightened about. You cannot preach God's love and forgiveness on one hand and discriminate against others, particularly in such a scornful way. Don't you realize that while reading the Bible can be a good thing, when a person uses the Bible to treat God's children badly, it is not good at all. That is what God wants you to understand. He wants you to help others, not cast them out and blame Him for it.

OMG kartman! You are SO my hero! Your posts above are spot on the target. In fact I've spent hours of time and posted hundreds and hundreds of words trying to say exactly what you said in a couple of reasonably short posts. Good job. Excellent job. You are obviously an intelligent man who knows how to cut to the chase. And rational, did I mention rational? And empathetic and caring. Thank you for posting your opinion and revealing your wisdom here. In other words... thanks, I needed that.

Patty: "Every womans body that can produce an egg, can deliver a baby." I am not sure when you posted that patty, but you have seriously outdone yourself with that statement. If I give you the benefit of the doubt, I'd guess you must have been in a big hurry and just not thinking clearly because nothing could be further from the truth. Hundreds, in fact, I am sure thousands, of women can produce eggs but cannot bear children. Are you smoking somthing weird? Or is your single-minded prejudice against a woman's right to choose just blinding you to everything that makes sense on this topic?

Thanks, rodriguez - your support is sure appreciated.

Lydia you and rodriguez are still making some very good points.

Lydia: "The most vocal anti-abortion protesters out front always sneak their daughters in the back door for abortions" The irony of the anti-choice movement is that so many of them have not only considered but have chosen abortion. Sometimes because of the guilt that society heaps on them, they sign up for marching against women's right to choose - and yet they, themselves, know that sometimes it is the best path that a woman can take, in some cases the ONLY path. So it is ironic that they allowed themselves the right to choose but they want to take it away from others. Anti-choice people like to pretend that the woman who gets an abortion is a careless, wonton, hussy who gets what she deserves (pregnancy) for sleeping around. A child should never be used as punishment. It makes me want to cry when someone says that women just have to take their medicine - especially considering that the "medicine" they are referring to is a baby. The women and girls who get abortions are your mothers, your sisters, your daughters, your counsins, your aunts, and your best friends. Don't buy into the notion that all women who need an abortion are careless, stupid women. And don't buy into the notion that an abortion is the wrong answer because preachers and the Pope and your holier-than-thou next door neighbor says you're a bad person if you do it. Each woman has to make the decision for herself. I trust in women. If they can handle a pregnancy, they sure will. But I know that it could be my sister or my daughter who finds herself in dire straits because she was raped or her birth control failed or she was influenced by a guy she was intimidated by or one she wanted to impress. Women need to take care of themselves and make no apologies for doing that. Whatever their choices are, they are theirs and not the government's or some religious zealot's to make. As a society, we should never be in the business of forcing women to have children. Just as we should never be in the business of prohibiting women from having children.

patty: "God has placed every parent with the responsibility to care for their own children. If they don't the scripture says that they are worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)" Thank you for bring this scripture to everyone's attention. I've been telling everyone for a long time that adoption is absolutely not the answer to an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy!

You also seem positively obsessed with the activity pattern you keep pointing out that is going to cause the second coming of Christ. As a good Christian, you shouldn't be so obsessed with it. We have been told that none of us will know when it is going to happen. And you should be thrilled if it happens soon. You shouldn't dread it or be afraid of it to the point of warning people constantly.

rodriguez is right! What the founding fathers wanted to ensure is simply that the government doesn't interfere with people's right to worship anyway they see fit and that the church does not interfere with the running of the government. I'll say it again too: that is the reason why separation of church and state is so important. Don't you understand that if you allow one church to make laws, then at some point in time if a different church becomes more popular, let's say Catholicism, you would be outraged if the Pope was involved in making our laws strictly according to Catholic doctrine. One religion, Christianity, does not rule this country. We are a country of laws that protect the right of every citizen to worship any religion they choose without censorship from the government. It is discriminatory for Christians to demand that laws governing all American citizens should be based solely on the Christian doctrine and that is in large part why the First Amendment was written and adopted. You seem to have a very convoluted way of thinking about the First Amendment, patty. I understand your reasoning, but it is wrong.

We are obviously not communicating well, patty. I wasn't saying, nor was the info I posted saying, that it is protecting the "government from church" which is ludicrous. You can read for yourself without me or your right wing source and it clearly states: The First Amendment "..."expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion,..." So it keeps the government from interfering in religion - period. It says people can't force others to establish a religion and be a part of it and at the same time, it says that the government cannot interfere with people worshipping any religion. Clearly the intent is to provide that the government and people's religion should be separate.

Ok I looked at your link. No wonder you said what you did. That article is exactly what I was talking about when I referred to a convenient truth. The author of your article has sliced and diced each word to create a meaning that the author wants it to mean. (And what you want it to mean.) It is easy to see why you are mistaken about why the First Amendment was written. You've conjured up a convenient truth. Just like the Repubicans are trying to conjure up a new history for the history books which is to conveniently make it look as if the Bush administration was not the worst and perhaps the most dishonest administration in history.

patty you are completely mistaken about the First Amendment. It is not about the protection of Christians. It is to keep the government from discriminating against cetain segments of society. It is in place to ensure that people can worship however they want. It was not written to ensure that we have a Christian nation. I don't know where you read that, but you should read a little more about the history of this nation and about our founding fathers. I mean read the real truth, not the convenient truth. United States of America This article is part of the series: United States Constitution Original text of the ConstitutionPreamble Articles of the Constitution I ∙ II ∙ III ∙ IV ∙ V ∙ VI ∙ VII Amendments to the ConstitutionBill of Rights I ∙ II ∙ III ∙ IV ∙ V VI ∙ VII ∙ VIII ∙ IX ∙ X Subsequent Amendments XI ∙ XII ∙ XIII ∙ XIV ∙ XV XVI ∙ XVII ∙ XVIII ∙ XIX ∙ XX XXI ∙ XXII ∙ XXIII ∙ XXIV ∙ XXV XXVI ∙ XXVII "First Amendment" redirects here. For other uses, see First Amendment (disambiguation). The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This is a refreshing article. Thought you all might find it interesting. Katha Pollitt Katha Pollitt – Wed Jun 3, 7:23 am ET The Nation -- There were lots of young people in the crowd, and at the microphone, for Monday evening's spirited rally in Union Square to honor Dr. George Tiller. It was quite a contrast with the last gathering occasioned by the murder of an abortion provider, the candlelight vigil at Columbus Circle in l998, after the murder of Dr. Barnett Slepian. Back then, the crowd was small and middle-aged and rather dispirited. This time, people were awake and angry. It's about time. Time to demand federal legal protection for abortion rights. Time to demand that law enforcement take seriously the violent anti-abortion underground. Time for doctors to show some spine, defend their colleagues who perform this necessary service to women and reintegrate abortion into normal medical practice. Time for women to come out of the closet and talk about their abortions, so that people will realize that the woman who terminates a pregnancy is their wife, their mother, their sister, their friend. It's time, too, to stop the pretense that the "debate " over abortion consists of two equally extreme positions, and that wisdom resides in the mushy middle, where everybody disapproves of abortion except when they want one for themselves or someone they care about. There's only one set of extremists here, the one that uses language like "babykiller," " Nazi," "murderer," and "death mill," kidnaps and murders providers and clinic workers,burns and bombs clinics and drives cars into them, posts pictures of clinic workers and their families on the internet, and harrasses patients on their way to get care. Only one side writes like this about the murder of Dr. Tiller: "But I also know joy. Not the shallow type of joy but a deep resonating joy. I feel joy that no longer will this wicked man slay the judicially innocent. I feel joy because justice, albeit of a rough variety, was visited on someone who so thoroughly opposed a culture of life and who worked so assiduously to spread the culture of death. I know joy because the truth of Scripture that those who take up the sword shall die by the sword is seen as authoritative. I know joy because I know that no longer will Dr. Tiller be sucking out the brains of people, or torturing people with saline or dismembering people in utero. How could a sane person not feel joy at the death of a mass murderer and a terrorist?" backwaterreport/Covenant News That's Bret MacAtee, Michigan pastor and Constitution Party activist. People mock the word "choice" --it's consumerist, euphemistic, wimpy, calculated. But one thing you can say for it: It honors the individual conscience. If a desperately ill pregnant woman wants to risk her life to give birth, if she wants to carry an anencephalic fetus to term so it can die in her arms, or have her rapist's baby, or become a mother at 14, or produce octuplets, pro-choicers are not going to compel her to abort. Pro-choicers don't go around lecturing girls and women that they will blame themselves forever if they have a baby they may not be equipped to raise well. They don't paint gory pictures of the horrors and dangers of childbirth to scare pregnant girls and women into ending their pregnancies with a quick and safe termination. They don't tell women Jesus is going to send them to Hell if they sacrifice their futures to the whims of a wayward sperm -- although they might mention from time to time that the Bible nowhere mentions abortion. Pro-choicers don't blow up churches or assassinate the leaders of Operation Rescue. Only one side wants to force women to live by its so-called morality, and only one side murders and bombs to make its point. Only one side has a terrorist wing. In the days to come, let the public discussion acknowledge that.

These huge disagreements about what the Bible says and what God wants are the reason that we need to ensure the separation of church and state. I know that born again Christians are certain that they have all the answers. But they do not. They just have the answers that make sense to THEM. And when they tread on our toes with their beliefs regarding the laws of the land, it is just the thing that reeks of discrimination and intolerance and the exact thing that causes religious wars, suicide bombs and aircraft being flown into the sides of buildings. Yes, we're back to that. 'nuff said.

patty although I don't agree with you, I appreciate your softer tone. I have a feeling that you are more like that with your Catholic friend too, which is good because it will allow you to both be more open to sharing thoughts and beliefs with each other. I believe that is a very good thing. Carrie: "There's the Bible lesson for today!!" Oh Carrie, if only it were true.

rodiguez, your points are well taken. It is impossible to follow the Bible word for word. And it is impossible to interpret it word for word. Particularly since the words have been translated and diciphered so many times over thousands of years. I have no doubt that the men who did the translations had good intentions, for the most part, and of course translations were absolutely necessary. But it is important that we understand everything about the Bible today that we can. To embrace the Bible with blinders on is naive and serves to confuse more than enlighten.

First of all, I do not interpret the Bible as literally as you do. And as for those particular passages that you quoted, there are other passages in the Bible that call some of those into question. I know you won't agree with that, but it is what I believe that drives me, not what you believe. The fact that we believe so differently about spiritual things is quite obvious in all of the exchanges that we've had. It is also obvious that because you disagree with me so vehemently, you at some point decided that I have no relationship with God. Although you find this curious, and you should, it is something that He wants you to understand and explore further on your own. You may think that you understand how other people believe and I know you think that you are the one who has a true understanding of the Bible and God and the route to heaven, but He wants you to know that you do not fully understand. And that is a barrier between you and goodness.

Of course. I read the Bible everyday. I am not unfamiliar with the passages you've quoted. I will re-read them, however.

patty, thank you. And praised be to God in the highest.

I still feel very sad for the children. I don't know how involved the grandparents are going to be in their lives because they sounded a little estranged at one point, but maybe that was just more drama to try and get a show. I do hope that those little beings have someone wonderful in their lives that they can count on who isn't so eaten up with their own celebrity.

All I ask is that you consider my words to you - just as I have considered yours. I have a feeling that you are still very resistant to opening your heart to what I am telling you that God wants for you and from you. I hope for your own sake that you open your mind and your heart. I honestly believe that I am being moved to tell you these things. I have nothing to gain, but you have so much to learn and to gain. If only you will listen and consider it to be very heartfelt and very much inspired by God. God knows that you have been an avid student of the Bible and that you have studied as much as you are capable. You have said to Him that you have turned over your life to Him, however God is troubled that you are still holding back, still mired in the devil's sin, still not fully trusting in Him. Dig deep patty. Stop thinking in terms of the sins of this life and rise up before Him, not holding back any portion of your mind and soul to Christ. You can be a better person, even now. God is counting on you to let go of the things that are keeping you from what He has planned for you.