BJean

plain: "Nope. I'm strictly a worker bee. But, will you continue to offer a medical plan if the government has a plan for your employees too? Because you'd be paying twice, in a way, for medical insurance." It all depends on many factors, but I wouldn't be surprised if we would. But in any case, you won't have to worry about it will you? plain: "But.....the above sounds extremely racist. I would postulate that the reason there has been a large influx of foreign doctors is that foreign parents actually pressure their kids to study. I think by and large, the children of American have a blase' attitude toward education. Or are you saying that medical schools are accepting foreign students because of some kind of affirmative action quota? As a committed liberal, I'd think you were all for that" You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about medical school or who's accepted. I was talking about doctors and who's practicing specialties in this country, by and large. Now in Texarkana, Texas I have no idea what the ratio is. But in larger cities where I have lived, there are many more foreign doctors practicing specialties than American ones. It doesn't have to do with race. It has to do with country of origin. My beef is with language difficulties, customs, etc. plain: "I might lie about my genital size" Well I hope that isn't something that has affected your outlook on life. And I can tell you one thing about a certain segment of the middle eastern population: they don't bother lying about their genital size, they just know how to use what they have. I've read about it, you see. plain: "But.....what does this have to do with single payer system?" I was speaking to the effect that this system that we currently have - people relying on insurance for EVERYTHING - and how it has affected the medical profession in this country. plain: Are you saying that "I liked nationalized care in country X, so I will like it here". No of course not. But I am saying that it is quite possible that some form of nationalized health care could be better than what we have now. plain: "It's not a matter of me thinking that big insurance is compassionate enough to make the right decisions involving medical care....it's a matter of me thinking that, with a lot of insurance companies competing with each other, pricing and decisions are kept in check. With single payer, ONE entity holds all the cards. With single payer, there will be no competition.....and that's not good." Insurance companies do compete to some extent now, however they are joined at the hip when it comes to lobbying Congress to keep themselves in control of our health care. Pricing and decisions about what kind of health care and medicine we can get have not been kept in check. Except that they have kept the pricing and decisions in their hip pockets. It is a little like what happened in the banking industry. They lobbyed to get rid of government oversight. They got what they wanted. Then they screwed us all and pulled every trick they could think of to simply make boat loads of money - it nearly broke us all. Now the medical insurance companies have done about the same thing to us with our health care. Our benefits have gotten less and our premiums have gotten higher - and they just keep getting richer and richer. We're the poor saps who are screwed. We're not getting a better product for all our money, we aren't attracting a better quality of doctors, and our hospitals are a colossal mess. What part of this so-called "competition" is benefitting Americans who need health care? plain, medicine and health care are not just like any other business. They have to do with life and death. Most business do not. We have to find some way for Americans to be able to get the very best medical care in the world. Right now we do not have that and it is not getting better. Again, the system we have is broken. If it weren't, there would be no suggestions for making change. There would be no need for change if "competition" cured all the ills in our health care system. Years ago people paid for their office visits out of their pockets. They didn't have insurance to pay for routine tests or medicines or office visits. They only had insurance for major catastrophies and not everyone even had that. Back then the "competition" in the market was being driving by the health care providers themselves. Then it worked. Today, we have a health care system that is run by the insurance companies - our doctors, our hospitals and our pharmacies are all under the control and domination of the insurance companies. And it doesn't matter if you live in a large metropolis or Texarkana, Texas (or Arkansas). If you can't afford insurance and sometimes even if you can, and you need medical care, it will probably be a friggin' battle to get it.

And now I remember why I don't exchange posts with you Beth. You're such a dreary sort. All full of hostility and hatefulness and accusations. Gotta find someone more satisfying to debate. Just exchanging small snotty words is fun, but not very worthwhile. But congratuations on your weight loss. (That's to placate the mods.)

Ok I just checked yours out. Congratulations Beth, you've done a bang up job of losing weight. I'll bet you're getting your blood pressure under control really well now. Good for you!

You call that back up? Guess I misunderstood what you consider proof. Proof is whatever Beth has decided is proof, I guess. Now I get it. If it is something that Beth agrees with then my proof is there for all the world to see, otherwise, it's my stinking opinion and it just doesn't hold Water. Glad we got that straight. And yeah, I consider this a hellofa lot of fun. I'll bet my blood pressure is much better than yours. Especially if you're still heavy. I don't check out people's stats usually. I just really couldn't care less. It affects me not. If someone has lost a lot of weight and their glitter and weight loss chart is big and glary, then I notice and I tell them how great it is that they have done such a good job. I would never have dreamed of checking on serenity's weight and then do a number on her about it. But that's just bitter ole' me.

Carrie, I've noticed that too about whites thinking that every other white person sees people of color as somehow being inferior in some way. It is shameful that we haven't overcome the ignorance and fear that drives people to treat other people as inferior based on skin color, weight, sex, sexual preference, etc. If it happens to us we get outraged. But if happens to someone else that is different from us, we expect it. It's a shame. I think it's good to talk about it in an open forum like this.

Beth just admit it. You have no proof. You have no back up for your claims. You're going on your gut instinct. You're reacting and posting in just the same way that you have accused me of doing.

"Deeply rooted bitterness." Has a nice ring to it. I would never have thought of that. If I have deeply rooted bitterness toward bigots, I wear it as a proud badge. It means that I'm not quite as stupid as the ignorant bigots are. That is definitely something, even if I am not as without prejudice as I strive to be.

Beth: "You can't debate; you can't argue facts; you can't back up assertions with proof;" Where's YOUR proof that serenity's feelings are not valid? Where is the backup for your assertions against serenity's claim of racism? Where's the proof that you can debate? You're all about telling me how awful I am. That's proof of YOUR ability to debate? Why should I put you on ignore? You're way too much fun. But you can put me on ignore if I irritate you that much. I dare you. :-)

Jachut I didn't suggest that Beth couldn't understand about racial bigotry period. I said that if she wasn't black she couldn't understand how it feels to be a black person in America. Everyone has probably been treated unfairly for one reason or other. Perhaps the way you were treated by a Muslim man in your country is similar to how black people are treated in America, but I doubt it. I haven't been in your shoes however, so I certainly can't know for sure. To me, having an airline discriminate against you because you are fat, calling you out in front of others is not any more difficult than having someone refuse to sit by you because you are a brown-skinned person. And not having been there, I think it is stupid for someone to assume that they know better than the person that it happened to, whether it was racial bias or not. Frankly I have a feeling there is some evidence of negativism toward my earlier posts going on.

Carrie thank you for posting. I hear stories like that nearly every day. Discrimination and bigotry are alive and well in the U.S. We sure won't get past it until we are willing to call it what it is and work to recognize it and eliminate it.

Plain, if I thought that Beth and Headhunter were just playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I don't think that's what was going on. I think that there was a different brand of discrimination going on. Both of them decided that because serenity is 288 lbs., that it most probably was her obesity that caused the person to move. I find that to be very revealing about two people who seem to have very little knowledge about bigotry toward blacks and besides, I guess as far as they're concerned, everything's all about them. Beth can't identify with the black thing and so she thinks anybody who complains about being discriminated against because they're black must be making it up. Particularly since she is sick to death of the whole idea of racial discrimination in America. And for gosh sakes, we have a black president, you losers. Don't you know that means we were ignorant enough to vote for a black man, a friggin' Democrat no less, so we sure can't still be a bunch of bigots discriminating against people with dark skin. What more proof do you idiots want, anyway? Everytime I read her smart-mouthed claims of anti-political correctness, it sounds to me like she's just trying to bust the chops of anyone who isn't a white, or conservative or pro-capitalism or pro fill in the blank of whatever Ron Paul rant you like. She seems proud of the fact that she is anti-government, anti-liberal, anti-just about everything. And she seems angry at anyone who does like our Preisdent - and routinely accuses them of "drinking the kool-aid." That is all fine with me too - except when someone bares her soul on this forum and makes a statement wherein she reveals a personal experience that she is trying to understand, and Beth thinks it's her duty to make her feel even worse. Then yeah I have a problem. Expecially when we're expected to think that it's cool that she's not pandering to someone - and she thinks it's admirable to speak her mind no matter who she insults. And as for me, she sez I am wussified, all about pc-ism and pissy? Well, when it comes to people who post the kind of "everything is all about me and I'm all cool because I am different and the rest of you who are drinking the kool-aid" bull, then yeah, I prefer to be me. And yep, I know Beth, you weren't talking to me. Maybe I should let you in on a little secret.... serenity wasn't talking to you either.

Oh thanks. That's brilliant. Nice to see your ignorance is still showing. To be honest Beth, I've been ignoring your posts because we just don't commuicate well and we certainly do not share the same beliefs or politics. But as far as I am concerned, this one takes the proverbial insensitive cake, even for you. And it rather pissed me off. I do agree that there isn't as much bigotry as there was in the 1970s, but that sure's hell doesn't mean that it doesn't exist on a daily basis. And if you think it does, then I chose the right word. (See my comment above.) :wink:

Just curious, Beth. Are you black? No? How could you possibly understand what real bigotry in America against black people is like if you are not black? If you were not fat, do you really think you would understand what it feels like to get a side-ways sneer because you're overweight? I find it rather odd that you would second-guess someone about racial discrimination when you have never experienced racism against yourself because of your skin color. Or maybe I have it wrong. Maybe you're black and extremely Enlightened. Perhaps you're black and from experience and keen insight, you know for sure that most people who SEEM to be discrminating and bigoted against you because you are black, are really not doing it for that reason at all. Cool. You're black and you're smart enough to know that they're discriminating against you for a different reason than what might be perceived as race discrmination. Because lets' face it, if you're black and fat, and someone is rude and discriminates against you, it makes more sense that it's because you're fat. Uh, huh. Yeah. Right. Sure. Tell us your story. Tell us exactly what qualifies you to make the post you did suggesting that Debbie doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear it.

Well you say that as if we can't help it that we're fat. We all know that all we have to do is push ourselves back from the table. How many times have we heard doctors say that? We are just a bunch of lazy, out of control, self-indulgent, gut-stuffing slobs. I kid. The fact is, if the nutritionists/dieticians, doctors and other medical research people had any real clue about how we metabolize certain foods, what chemicals in our bodies cause us to eat or not eat, and we had a means to comprehend the depth of the problem, we could nip obesity in the bud. We could also stop people from becoming anorexic and bulemic. Right now, it's a guessing game. And a very lucrative one at that. There is no doubt that fat people are discriminated against. There probably isn't one of us who hasn't been discrminated against because of our overweight condition. And you can bet that it is prevelant on every level of society. It's unattractive, it's unhealthy and it's disgusting to those who are not overweight. (And even disgusting to some of us who are equally as fat.) I hope when a eureka moment is revealed, LBT is the first place it's made public.

Aww hell, sign me up. I got nothin' to lose - at least mentally.

patty, you want christianity ..." in general, to be recognized as the faith of our founders and their plan for this country. I would like people to stop trying to push God out of everything public." Our founding fathers didn't want you to be able to impose that wish on your fellow Americans. That is why they did everything in their power to ensure that you were not able to do it. You have interpreted the founding father's written words to mean something that in fact, is the opposite of what they intended. Interesingly, you do not state that your interpretation of the founding fathers words are what you believe, you state that what you post is FACT. You also interpet the Bible and rather than claim that it is your interpretation, or your belief, you state that what you post about the Bible is FACT. Obvioulsy these claims really do nothing to further your cause or to give yourself any credibility as being a philosopher, an intellectual, well-educated or a just plain wise person. This is evidenced by the fact that given the constant postings that you make and the constant insistence that you know these things as FACT, if you were really were seen to be intellectually superior, philosphical, well-educated and wise, you would get someone to back up your claims from time to time. Maybe you do, but if so, I have missed it.

Jack I'm not good at good-byes or eulogies, but I didn't want everyone to think that she just quit us. tapshoes, thanks I will pass yours and Jack's comments on to her family. Her DH did tell me that he reads them all and they mean a lot to him.

Debbie you're right, we all want to be loved or at least liked. The older I get I've decided that the best I can hope for in dealing with other people is fairness. As long as people treat others fairly, I am pretty happy. I strive to be as fair as I can. It actually isn't always easy to figure out the most fair answer. I totally understand what you're saying about the blond princess in the fairy tales. When my older sister's daughter wanted a Cabbage patch doll, they were constantly sold out. One day she went to ToysRus when they announced that they got a shipment. The only one that was left when she got there was a darling brown baby with curly black hair. She wasn't sure if that would make a difference to her daughter because she'd never bought anything but white dolls with blond hair, like her daughter. She was pleased that when she brought the brown doll home to her daughter, she was delighted to get her Cabbage Patch kid and never seemed to notice that the doll was different at all. But it made me wonder what it was like for pretty little brown skinned girls to have to get blond-haired white dolls because that was all that their mothers could find.

Debbie, I have only been discriminated against (to my knowledge) because I am short and because I'm fat. I realize those are certainly not much of a big deal, comparatively speaking. But I know how it feels when someone says something derrogatory and although I probably have no idea how it feels for someone to touch my hair and make a statement like that, I can certainly imagine how it feels and I think I would find it difficult not to be bitter and defensive. You do not sound like a bitter or defensive person at all. You sound intelligent and as though you understand and accept discrimination for what it is and you try to learn from it and move on. It makes me want to get to know you better because I have a feeling that I could learn a lot from you. BJean

Sue that's very interesting conjecture. It makes sense, I guess. But I might take exception to the thought that people under age 30 are more social. Unless you're talking about dating. And if you are, it seems that dating should motivate a person to be slim more than if a person were married or a confirmed bachelor or bachelorette. I do agree that not having carried the weight as long, it is probably not as much of a burden than being overweight is to older people. Especially if we're talking about health ramifications. As we all know, there's such a thing as late onset of diabetes or secondary diabetes and that's not something one should ignore. Also, high blood pressure and high cholesterol are both issues that older obese people have to deal with that those who are under 30 probably don't have yet. Thanks for your insight. It would be interesting to know why your doctor believes that people under 30 have a lower success rate with the band.

I have always been curious to learn if there is a difference in the rate of success between persons who were younger versus those who were older when they got the band. It makes sense to me that the longer you live with lousy eating habits, the harder it is to change them. But I do not know that to be true. Can't help but wonder..... I do know that with the band or the sleeve or gastric bypass there are no guarantees that you will be slim for the rest of your life. I have watched too many people in the public eye go through losing a lot after surgery and then regaining much of the weight, and it doesn't seem to matter whether their surgery involved the band, the sleeve or gastric bypass. Anybody have any input?

Hey Debbie: Thanks for your thought-provoking post. I can't explain why anyone would discriminate against you for any reason, much less because you are a lady with darker skin or because you are a lady who cannot see. Too bad we don't all experience blindness for a while in our lives. It wouldn't take very long for us to understand that the color of people's skin doesn't tell us what kind of person they are. When my son became a teenager and decided to be in a band, he grew his hair long and wore rocker's clothes and makeup for his gigs and to impress the other kids. Other parents saw his band's performances and they smiled and clapped along with me. But if they saw him walking down the street without me, they would have avoided him and they would have made the judgement that he was a bad kid, as evidenced by his clothes and hair. After I learned that shocking lesson, I looked at all teenagers differently. I realized that they all have a mother and that there was no possible way that their attire determined whether they were a bad kid or not. Discrimination and bigotry are based in ignorance and fear. When I notice discrimination and I speak to a bigot or read something they have written, I know I am speaking with and noticing a person who is flat out ignorant. An ignorant person scares me much, much more than someone with skin different from mine or with clothing that looks outrageous to me. I don't know how we, as a nation, will ever get past our sad, pathetic history and ignorance. I have hope that having a President who has dark skin and a multi-racial upbringing and a varied cultural background and education, will be an excellent example for all of us - and that he will prove just how ignorant it is to prejudge people and how ignorant it is to discriminate against others for any reason.

gadget seems to travel sometimes but she always comes back - with a vengance. want2beme: Thanks for your post. I agree with you about the humility thing and the value of loving each other. And I also agree that this is a very thought provolking thread. However, there has never been a time that the anti-choice folks have made a convincing argument that we should force women to leave the decision about abortion up to the government rather than to the women involved.

Wonder when the resident "expert" on the anti-choice movement will return? I'm sure she will bring new and even more disgusting propaganda to post. It's eerily quiet and pleasant here. And I'm not referring to the religious expert, you know.

Good for you, recycling is great!