BJean

Clinton would never have been impeached, would never have lied, if it weren't for his innapropriate sexual behavior and his need to hide it from his wife. On other matters regarding Bill's life, I doubt if he would have felt the intense need to lie that he obviously felt about his behavior on that score. (pun intended) And given his sexual proclivities, the Republicans wouldn't have had such a golden opportunity to dog him for his entire presidency which, not surprisingly, wound up in an impeachment hearing. You gotta remember that it was a Republican dominated Congress, and they had the votes to impeach. But when it came to physically removing him from office, they didn't have the guts. And rightfully so. If his lie had actually been a highly unlawful offense, they would have given him the boot. Everybody (practically) lies about infidelity. Republicans like to say the lie is why he was impeached, but even if he hadn't lied, they would have found a way to do it. They'd been working on it for over 7 years and were bound to come up with something. Few people can live under the scrutiny that Clinton had over him. I'm not making any excuses. I wasn't a big Bill Clinton fan, that's for sure. But I am remembering quite well how the whole thing went down.

Yup, I couldn't agree more, Kartman, on every count you mention. At first I was a little put off by his measured moves to be bipartisan and moderate. My heart was wanting him to come in and kick some serious behind. But intellectually, I think he is what this country needs and I hope he can be a sterling example of how our country can be run so that neither extreme is running rough shod over everyone else. His openness and his willingness to expose himself to criticism - while leading this country through these bad times - is just what we need. No more manipulating everything behind the scenes and having a president who is, for all intents and purposes, out of the public eye every day except for very orchestrated and scripted events.

Clinton's problem was that he was a Democrat - primarly. And don't say it wasn't his adultry that got him into trouble - that was his achillies heel and it also goes to the question of whether our elected officials should be doing it - like I said about one's vulnerability to blackmail, earlier.

Some of the British papers prove how entertaining they find their royalty and political figures' personal lives to be. Guess we are the same way, but we get morally outraged instead of just realizing that it is interesting and sometimes amusing.

patty's: " Get real. He had everyhing to do with them. I don't want to 'ignore' anything from any past presidents. But what's been done in the past is not any excuse for what is done NOW. Dems love to blame Bush for the decisions Obama is making NOW. Was Clinton to blame for the things Bush did in office?" Oh but you obviously DO want to ignore what's been done in the past. Democrats and other mainstream Americans do not blame Bush for anything but what he is guilty of. And if his rotten legacy didn't live on through the results of his administration's deeds, we wouldn't still be carping about him. And Republicans have blamed Clinton for everything from 9/11 to Cuban cigar making. Puuuuleeese~

I agree with your first sentence. Then you rant on with a bunch of drivel that negates any good intent that you had in making your post. It's filled with a very narrow, biased and a single-minded approach to what President Obama is trying to do. Furthermore I take issue with your statement that President Obama is not what the people wanted or expected. You have no right to speak for all the people who voted for him. And btw, did you vote for him? If you did and you are surprised at what Obama is working for, then you're free to tell us how misled you believe you were. But as for me and every other individual who voted for Obama, you cannot speak for us.

Yeah, if this Argentinean woman could just act and then die of an "overdose", then they could have their very own Jack Kennedy. My argument with infidelity by a public official isn't with me wanting to impose my moral values on everyone else. It's with the fact that it sets them up for blackmail. Having an affair is not against the law. It also doesn't necessarily compromise one's ability to do one's job. Although in the case of Sanford, it cetainly did. Most politicians affairs are not even known to the public until years later after their deaths when someone decides to write a book and interview hundreds of people. If affairs always caused people to be unable to do their jobs well, America would be in worse shape than we're in and we wouldn't have been able to become the strong nation that we are. Think of Jefferson. Think of Wahington. And no doubt many others of our original constitution framers and officials. How do you check a person's morals when you look at their resume and do an interview? You don't. Unless they have been so indiscreet that it has become a problem, you'd never know if you hired a philanderer. If people lie to their spouses, they'll certainly lie to their potential boss. You can't legislate morality. You can't make everyone take a lie detector test. Even if you made that a requirement, dishonest people can beat lie detector tests anyway. It's beginning to look like the people who protesteth too much are the ones we need to take a harder look at, morality-wise. And that's not just true of our public officials. Take a look around you. What do you see? Do you happen to know of anyone who has been unfaithful? My guess is, yes.

I don't blame you for wanting to ignore George W. Bush's policies that led us into the incredibly unhealthy state of the union. Within a month after Obama took office, Republicans were already blaming him for things that he had absolutely nothing to do with. It's so crazy in fact, the Republicans are looking like frightened mice scurrying around trying to find a hole to crawl in to. And yet they keep taunting the cat (us). It's very weird.

I believe what was said was that changes can be made to fix programs that don't work. Throwing up our hands and saying that a program that isn't working can't be fixed and so we need to get rid of all government programs is flat out ridiculous. Thank God that Obama changed the policy about late term abortion. How dare the government come between a woman and the best medical advice! Her situation is horrendous enough without having to deal with some outrageous government intervention telling her that no matter what her circumstances or her baby's circumstances, she and her baby must just allow nature to take its' unhealthy course. At that point nature has already gone wrong. Women don't just ask for late term abortions - they are advised to for medical reasons.

Patty: if you don't understand the distinction between what I said and what you said, then no wonder you would misquote me. I have no problem with you dragging what I really said over, but don't put quotes around something I didn't say. And don't say that I said that you were happy that the doctor was killed. I said that you sound like someone who could justify killing someone if they are going against God's will. Meaning that your rant on that subject was sounding scary. I didn't state as fact that you are someone who would kill in the name of God and I didn't insinuate that you would go kill somone. I'd go find it and post it here, but I think everyone who reads this stuff knows what I'm talking about. Patty you keep speaking to your claim that those teenagers were asked to leave by the hospital administrator because they said "Jesus" and you didn't say anything about how the children reacted. Could you please give us some backup data? Everyone always insists that I have back up data. Your turn. Find the book or the newspaper or wherever you read it and show us who reported it and exactly how it was reported and when the event occurred. Please.

Patty all the arguments you make about our BAD government wear thin. You speak as if what we had before Obama was better than what Obama is trying to deliver. Most of us don't see it that way. We have had too many years of our politicians behaving the way you suggest. That's how we know, for sure, that it doesn't work your way. That's how we know that we HAVE to make some drastic changes.

patty: "You can dish it out. But I can't? Patty: "You, at one time, made it clear to me that I was just like the abortion doctor killer because of my strong stand on Christianity and the word of God. Are you going to deny that? Unless it was just the way you led me to feel through a series of conversations with you, and not actually those exact words. Either way, you led me to believe that you felt this way about us christian 'extremists'. If that's not really how you feel, then I apologize." Patty, patty, patty.... you can behave as such a simpleton when you feel it is in your interests to do so. If you want to quote me, then use my words. You know how angry you get when someone characterizes your words to mean something different than you intended. Especially if the spin they put on your words is not really what you said. But I'm upset with you because you put words in quotes that you attribute to me that I never wrote. You are very, very wrong to do that. As for my making it clear to you that you are just like the abortion doctor killer... see your words below, "You, at one time, made it clear to me that I was just like the abortion doctor killer because of my strong stand on Christianity and the word of God. you're not entirely correct. I said that there are people who are right wing extremists who are happy, and in fact they are elated, that the good doctor was killed. They believe that it was God's will. If you choose to identify with that statement, that is certainly your prerrogative. However, I certianly did not say that patty is happy that the doctor was murdered in cold blood in his church. And I do feel that what I said is true about many right wing extremists who call themselves Christians but who do not follow the word of God. They are willing to hurt people who do not agree with their religious beliefs, which they justify because they claim that they are accepted "sinners" by God because they have convinced themselves that they are tools for God's work and furthermore, they do not fear the wrath of God (or the laws of the land) because they are doing God's work and he forgives them because they are "born again" and they will most definitely be going to heaven because that's what it's all about Alfie. *she stops, she takes a breath, whew!* Patty, you are right about me when you said that I am afraid of and detest right wing extremists who take the law into their own hands. You are right about me when you say that I believe separation of church and state is necessary because of crazy fanatics who would force their beliefs on all other Americans because they think they are the only ones who understand the Bible and what God intends for us. But you are quite wrong when you presume that I have made any statement of fact that you are THAT extreme. Your posts make it quite clear to anyone who reads them what kind of person you are. I simply attempt to argue the pros and cons of religious pomposity; of intolerance and hatred and about the more tempered approach to spiritual beliefs. You need make your own arguments without misquoting me. You can debate with me and argue against anything I say, that's fair game. But don't use your anger to try to make me look bad. You can dish it out all you like patty, no one is trying to stop you or even inhibit you from that, but don't misquote me. In fact, don't misquote anyone. It's not fair and there is simply nothing that justifies misquoting someone.

The answer is we CAN fix what is broken. Kartman: " Imagine the unjustness if we decided that police or fire service was an individual responsibility... “Oh sorry Mrs. Jones, we can’t send an officer to your home to get rid of that burglar because you don’t have adequate Police Insurance Coverage.” Perfect analogy, Kartman!

Patty!!!!! Back yourself up and apologize to me!!! You have quoted me as saying things that i have not said. You are way out of line and you need to stop the false arguments and rebuttals that you attribute to me. If you can't read an entire post and understand it then give it up. You are not going to be allowed to quote me incorrectly just to make your points. It is not only unfair, it is gross! Just stop it right now!!!!!

Devana what surprises me is that big business has so many middle and low income fighting their fight for them. And some people will never get it.

kartman, all they have to do to get reasonable laws passed is to pick us randomly like juries and let us serve for a couple of months. We'll fix the darned system!

I don't know what to make of your rant about the young people who went on a tour to sing and testify and who were rebuffed and required to leave various premises. At first glance, I wonder just how well-behaved and peaceful they actually were. Neither of the places you mentioned are public places. They are privately owned businesses. If in either case, the kids were deemed to be disrupting shoppers or children in various stages of healing from illness, it is understandable that the persons in charge would want to protect their customers and patients. You will never convince me that the hospital administrator made them leave because they said the name Jesus. Now if they were screaming it at the top of their lungs, then he could have been opposed to the tone in which they used His name. If that is not the case, I'm afraid I don't understand the opposition to some kids gathering to quietly sing and pass out literature. This sounds to me however, like some propaganda that is circulated to enrage the flock and influence them to go about posting rants and talking about how awful people who aren't Christian are. Liberals are Christians too. Talk about buttonholing people! Liberals think the religious right wing are wanting to "spoil all their fun" and "limit their freedoms"? That is incredibly offensive, not only to liberals but also to mainstream Christians everywhere. Frankly this kind of bigoted and biased negative rant against anyone who is not right wing reeks of the same kind of propaganda and brainwashing that Hitler used AGAINST Jews.

Great post Kartman!! :biggrin: Spot on in every way!! :redface:

inri09, good point. The man is so obsessed with himself right now, I'm not sure he knows what State he's in, much less how to run one. In the press, he is being a heartless bastard to his family. One doesn't say those things in public knowing they're going to hurt the people who love you. Perhaps he is trying to run them off so he can emigrate to Argentina. I say don't let the proverbial door hit you in the butt, mister.

Yay Kartman. I've been saying that about the insurance industry and the problem crosses over to other things besides medical. The insurance companies have a great PR machine and they have lots of influence over Congress. I could talk for days about the problems of the country brought about by our reliance on insurance companies. They have us where they want us and trust me, they are the ones who will put out false and biased information to scare people about any kind of change in our health care system that they won't benefit from.

I'm going to pretend that I linked up your post Devana. The reason I want to take credit for providing the information is because everybody who opposes my beliefs always insists that I post a link to prove what I've said. Yours works well for me!

Aw but Cleo'sMom, without the Republicans around to make us look good, would we seem as brilliant and highly moral as we do by comparison?

Green died Friday night in her sleep. She is out of the horrible pain that she had to endure from the cancer that invaded her body. I just wanted everyone to know because I am certain that many of you enjoyed Green's wit and wisdom as much as I did. She is missed, that is for sure. There's never been anyone who was as funny or incisive as Green, who was able to cut to the chase in record time and as far as I'm concerned, there never will be.

Oh I do understand, Devana! I had a near death experience last summer and my vow once I knew I was going to live, was to treasure the meaningful things in life and forget about all the material things that always seemed important. We all enjoy the niceties and luxuries, of course, but when we die those are not the things that we will be thinking about. Our families and our dear friends are what we would want with us in the end. And the sound of the surf, birds singing and bees buzzing will comfort us. I made a vow then and there to spend more quality time with my family. Now when my DH or my DD or my GD or DS try to get my attention, I give it to them - fully. And even if I don't want to take the time to swim with my granddaughter, I drop everything if she asks me to join her. What a beautiful child she is! And Green's illness certainly underscored my thought processes about all this. She posted on LBT as long as she could use the keyboard because it meant so much to her to connect with the people here and on her own blog. I hope I do get to hear more from you. I've missed you.

As a "born again" Democrat Kartman, in danger of repeating myself, I actually saw and heard Rush Limbaugh say that Sanford was the Republican's hope to finally have their John Kennedy. The irony in that silly, silly comment is that Rush Limbaugh has for his whole career criticized John Kennedy - and all the Kennedys for that matter. So why would the Republicans want some of that? Republicans! You can't live with 'em and you can't live without 'em.