BJean

The point is, where was the outrage when something truly, truly outrageous was happening to us? Instead of complete and utter outrage when people are trying to put together something that will improve our lives so dramatically. I can't imagine that anyone among us doesn't understand the need for serious healthcare reform. When Cleo'smom said: "All of these arguments against health care reform are red herrings to divert attention away from the real issue which is that profit driven health insurers will still be able to do what they have always done: 1) sell policies 2) collect premiums 3) deny as many claims as they can get away with 4) make obscene profits. Why would they want to change any of this" she is totally on the mark. I can't understand why all Americans (except of course those whose income is from the insurance industry) aren't screaming for healthcare reform. It seems as if they have allowed their aversion to our current president overshadow good sense and the possibility of a policy that would improve health care costs and availability and even quality for this country of ours.

No, sorry dude, if Kinky ran again, no matter which party he graced his presence with, I wouldn't vote for him. I might consider his bottled salsa, but that's the best I can do. patty you never cease to amaze. Obama's trips abroad are in representation of our country. You know, the United States of America. Some of you got so used to George W's lack of meaningful, useful interaction with foreign countries, you've forgotten, if you ever did know, how beneficial it can be to our well-being as a nation. As for his other so-called "vacations" I don't think you have taken into consideration that in the first 100 days in office, Obama had spent more time actually working - being a productive president - than Dubya did in the first 4 years of his presidency. So where were you then? I remember the first year he was in office (beginning in January if I am correct) that he took the entire month of August off. Retreated to his little ranch in Tejas which the Americans paid major bucks to convert to a safe haven for him and his family. Why weren't you bellyaching about that expenditure? You obviously operate with such a double standard that it is laughable. And some LBT folks make claims that I am bad about being biased. You make me look like a piker. Btw, may I ask why you put the term "birthplace" in quotation marks when you referred to Hawaii as the place where President Obama was born? Are you one of those transparently nutty "birthers"? :thumbdown:

I never get involved in political discussions either but I read an email from a friend of mine in Montana and her report was quite different from the one pattygreen posted. She said that the protestors who were against Obama and his presidency were very boistrous and ugly. Only once protestors from the other side showed up did they behave at all. They were outnumbered and intimidated which was cool because they've been able to cause such a ruckus at earlier events that were scheduled for Congressmen to discuss the healthcare proposals but who were unable to field questions or even in some cases finish their talks because of the opposing, totally obnoxious people shouting them down. I think that real people who are sick to death of the healthcare debate being quashed by a few people who do not understand the questions much less know the solutions, are finally showing up in numbers and those anti-everything-related-to-Obama folks can't take what they've been dishing out. Also, did you know that Obama is allergic to shellfish? And I heard that the airport was the only venue that was able to handle the number of people who were expected to show up for Obama and we all know that there are no chairs in Montana and that's why they had to be flown in. Let's get the facts right folks. And if you don't forward this message to at least 100 people within the next 3 minutes, you're unAmerian, unpatriotic, not a Christian, and you undoubtedly are married to your brother.

she know what "headhuntah" means. And we all know how compliant ms. beth is.

Nah, clowns are complex carbohydrates - all that red fuzzy hair and that nose. Wonka, wonka. But don't let him blow seltzer down your gullett 15 minutes before and 2 hours after you eat him. That's cheating!

Said like a true wacko. Their answer to everything when they disagree with someone: hatefulness, death and destruction. ] When are you people going to get it? You LOST. Time for some serious changes. Grow up and deal with it in a constructive way, um kay?

Plum forgot you like the Kinkster. Pretty good indication that we will never be in the same ballpark, politically, so you and I have little common ground for a meaningful discussion on politics in Texas. But if you ever go to the ballpark in Arlington, give me a call. Although I shudder at the possiility of running into Dubya there. That would be so distasteful it could ruin a perfectly good day at the park.

Get a ladder... find some ribbon... find one of Plain's toyz... then do a Carradine imitation. BINGO! PB Cowabunga Kemosabe. What happens here, stays here. You filthy, filthy whoremongers. (anybody besides me stiffle a giggle when their boss sez she's gonna do a dog and pony show?)

Advice for a really, really PB, two words: bran muffin. You can trust me on this.

Thanks! Since she's the missionary, I'll consult PG just to be safe. Ya'll should convert and become left wingnuted socialist beeotches. We all pride ourselves on that source of protein for our nightly facial. I never thought about using it internally (except in very special places) until I started reading this thread. Now I'm torn about my nightly ritual. Monkeys and donkeys..... now that sounds special! Did I hear elephants? :biggrin:

As I began reading this thread I suspected you all were a bunch of right wing radical extremists. After having read nearly all of it I am convinced..... However, can you please help me? My doctor is real concerned with my protein intake. He says I should always eat protein first. My question: Does this mean that I always have to do oral before missionary? Or is this something that only PG can faithfully answer?

plain: "Dude, what's with all the hating on Texas?!? First BJean and now you." Plain I've so missed you whist on vacation. As a pro-Texan you should be thrilled that your governor suggests that your solvent state go off on its' own. Then you wouldn't have to mess with things unTexas. Btw, you DO know that I live in Texas, right?

You've already given Obama lots 'o power via Bush's tenure. Why worry? There won't be another Bush president. Jeb has too many skeletons in the closet. Or were you talking about one of Dubya's daughters? Har! It's a numbers game? All trumped up for effect? Just like the game the Bush administration played on Americans? Yeah, right. Unfortunately you're wrong. It isn't just a numbers game. Perhaps you folks in Texarkana have the most fabulous health care in the world and if so, no wonder you can't grasp that everyone else does not. Yeah, Texarkana... they have it all figured out. When DD lived there in the 70's, that sure was not the case. Glad to know it's improved by massive leaps and bounds. Hurrah for ya'll. That's a partial government list, btw, and yeah, please take them on one by one. And this time be thorough and cite statistics and history and accomplishments vs. failures. Otherwise you're whistling in the wind. You're always saying that I don't answer questions. Perhaps you learned something from me, eh? Because you're great at making proclamations, but you don't seriously answer questions. I'm outa here - on vacation at long last. I hope I don't have to go to the hospital or doctor on this trip. No telling whether or not they'll kill me. Good chance they will at least give me staph infection.

The Nation -- Ok, so there's been a lot of misinformation about proposals to reform the health insurance industry and provide (near) universal coverage. Understandable! It's complicated stuff. Herewith, I'll try to answer some questions 1) Is it true that all of the bills currently proposed would end the practice of "rescission," whereby health insurance providers refuse to treat customers who've paid their premiums simply because they've become ill? No! That's a common misunderstanding. Actually, all of the bills would ban incisions, that is, they would legally bar surgeons from performing surgery until a panel of twelve gay illegal immigrant government bureaucrats unanimously signed off on the procedure. 2) Is it true that health care reform would ban insurers from refusing to insure people because of pre-existing conditions? Wrong again. To get rid of health inequality, the bills actually mandate that every American be given a pre-existing condition. A National Illness Commission, with academics appointed from Harvard, Reed College and Berkeley, will evaluate each citizen, and based on their demographic profile, choose their malady. Each disease or syndrome is scored on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most severe. White christian men will receive pre-existing conditions of 8 or higher. Black people, "wise latinas," and ACORN members will be exempted. 3) I heard the proposals currently under consideration provide seniors with option of free counseling sessions under Medicare, where they can discuss a living will and end-of-life care. That's a huge misconception. The bills require all senior citizens (who are non union members) be euthanized on their 70th birthday. Under section 278©ii all last rites will be performed by Jeremiah Wright using a Q'uran. 4) I've heard the bills being proposed would require insurers to provide preventative care, like mammograms, free of charge. No, but all lactating mothers will be forced to breast-feed poor children. 5) Will the current bills plug the "donut hole" in the Medicare prescription drug benefit so seniors don't have to pay exorbitant out of pocket expenses for their medication? Absolutely not. The legislation will ban donuts.

Awww Beth. Things didn't go the way you wanted - you didn't get the reaction you wanted and now you have to go using the eff word and calling me a bitch and suggesting that I'm older than you. How Beth of you. Obama has said, repeatedly, that we won't do it if we can't pay for it. But you don't listen to Obama. You don't believe him. You only believe the negative bull that makes you angry. You like being angry. You pretend to be all intellectual and you reveal glimpses of intelligence on some topics, but you always get ugly. Always. You're very predictable. And I'm having fun with you. Too bad you can't take it. One day you'll be as old as I am and hopefully you will have learned something in the process.

Ooooh scarey! I'm shaking in my boots. The proposed plan is just like Hitler's plan. Oooh. Frightening! It's history repeating itself. Ooooh. We must nip it in the bud. Throw out everything. Don't make a move. Don't change anything. Everything costs more than we can afford. The government is baaaad. Obama is a nazi. or is he socialist? I forgot what they said we're supposed to say he is. Or wait, I remember one thing... he isn't even really a natural citizen! He was he born in South Africa! well, I know for sure that he wants to take everybody's gun away. That's a given. And he dearly loves abortion. And there's no doubt that he'll have to insist that we do away with old people. There's no other way to afford health care under his plan. Kill the babies and kill the old folks. Shudder. That's me mudder he's talkin' about! Oooh. No way am I going to try to understand what this president is about - I have all the wingnuts here to explain it to me. Ooooh! Cold sweat fear! I hear Sarah Palin is going to get a talk show. Thank goodness. Now I will have a pipeline to truth, justice and the American way! Rush Limbaugh just ain't right wing enough for me. Of all the nerve of that dirty old Obama. He's trying to kill Sarah Palin's Down Syndrome baby. She said so herself. So I know it's true. Sarah Palin never lies. Ooooh I can't wait to hear what she has to say about this health care plan. She's bound to give me more buzz words to cling to. Yea! Sarah, Sarah, she's our man. If she can't do it, nobody can! Drill, baby drill!!!! Go Sar-a, go Sar-a.

plain, I'm afraid I have no idea how George Bush (first or second) feels about healthcare in America. Hmmm, yeah that is interesting isn't it. Take responsibility for our own health care? So that we will realize a lower infant mortality rate? What causes such a high infant mortality rate in the U.S.? You're insinuating that it is due to the lack of medical care for "at risk" babies. I wonder if you have actual statistics to back that up. When do most of the infant deaths occur in America? At birth? During the first year? During pregnancy? And do infant deaths occur at an alarmingly higher rate with folks you consider "at risk" or do the high death rates occur across the board with little regard for parental socio-economic conditions? Does it have anything to do with doctors performing more c-sections? Does it have anything to do with the fact that new babies spend very little time in the hospital after they are born? Does it have anything to do with more babies being delivered by midwives? And in birthing centers and private homes instead of hospitals? Does it have something to do with low to middle income families not being able to afford health care from the prenatal period and the time of conception up to and including child birth? Are you absolutely sure that you've come up with the solution to high infant mortality rates in the U.S. - by parents taking responsibility for their "at risk" babies by taking them to well baby clinics? What exactly are the parameters for defining the term "at risk babies" in this discussion? You don't see that the government does much right. We agree that the military is well run. But so are many other governmentally controlled things here in the good ole' U.S. of A. We've had this discussion before and I thought by my listing many of them at that time, you might have been convinced. Obviously all you can think of are poorly run programs or programs that you believe are bad and not worth having. I would give you that good or bad could be somewhat subjective given your penchant for negativism regarding our government, but the fact is this country would not be what it is without the government and its' many vital and well run programs and offices. Your well baby clinic is one example of a government program (albeit a local government rather than national government program) and you obviously consider it an important progam since you seem to be scolding those "at risk" folks for not using it.

shantra: Thank you so much for posting your views and thoughts on this topic. Obviously it is nice to hear from someone who has lived with nationalized health care in one of the countries that Americans are constantly holding up as having a healthcare system that is a complete utter failure for all its' citizens. I wish people would figure out a way to use all this negative energy to do something positive for the U.S. The lobbyists (and moneyed corporations who will have to be held to a different standard if our system is changed), have done a number on too many of our middle class and poor folks. They've used the oldest scare tactics in the book and we should know better. But too many of us do not. We buy into it and jump on the buzz words, repeat them over and over so that they become a mantra, and continue to cling to a system that is beating our actual health into the ground. They like to think that if there was a better plan, they'd be for it. But I do not believe that for one second. The only plan they'll be convinced is better, is one that will benefit the insurance companies, the phamacuticals and hospitals because those entites are the ones who are equipped to sway the public with such force. They're very good at what they do. And when they can have high profits OR provide good health, high profits will always be the winner. People are screaming about not wanting the government in control of our health in any way. How absurd because right now they are controlled by those profit-making people who stand to gain only if they are UNhealthy. I'll stake my life on a government-run health care system long before I would give it away to the greedy congomerates to run. Haven't we learned anything from our current system's failures? Have we just taken it in the rump for so long, that we now think it's an acceptable way to live? And not only have some Americans decided that it is acceptable, some even mistakenly argue that the U.S. has the best health care in the world. And interestingly enough, what they don't seem to realize is that the government doesn't want to control our health care. They just want us to have good health care, period. They strive to facilitate our having the kind of health care that we deserve and to set up standards that will rival the better care that people in other countries get. To say that the government never does anything right is just one more scare tactic that always seems to work with Americans. They don't seem to be able to take a good hard look at the things that the government does right. Pity.

You don't think that Americans are confused about what is proposed for health care? What? You don't think that Americans are confused about what is proposed for health care? Does that mean that you think all Americans are completely aware of the proposed plan? And you don't think that Americans are the least bit misled or unclear about exactly what would happen if we made this change - or any change that has been talked about? The Dems are not befuddled. Many are amazed and mystified. And some of them are confused and unclear about the plans that have been proposed. But not you, of course. You know for a fact that it would be a horrible move for America. Just like all the other Republicans who are staunchly against... well let's face it... they are vehemently against anything that the Democrats and Obama are for. They don't discriminate about what it is that Democrats are proposing, they just discriminate against Democrats and their ideals. They don't have a better plan, they have no plan. They don't know what they want, they know what they don't want. And what they don't want is Obama and Democrats. And to prove it they will take to the streets and they will take to the air and they will take to the internet and they will protest even when they have no idea what they're protesting, other than the fact that the Democrats and Obama are for it. Hey buddy, you started this line of discussion. You and your pals who are fit to be tied because there are people at LBT who support the idea of a modified and upgraded health care system. You are fit to be tied because you can't believe that people actually care enough about other Americans that they might be willing to do something about it instead of just talking about it. You people need to go fly a kite. If you spend a little time out in nature, simply flying a kite, maybe you'll get back to the basics of life and give peace, love and respect a chance.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

If you're going to categorize political parties, the Repbulicans are famous for rewriting history. Dick Cheney has made that a work in progress since he left office. Musta tried it too early though, it hasn't been working for so well for him.

Beckyintin: "If people who work in the health care industry are saying that the cost is not sustainable don't you think we need to listen to them?" People in the health care industry are against this just as the insurance companies are against this. And it's not because they don't think we American middle-class citizens can't afford it. It's because they don't think they can't afford it. It will hit them right in the pocketbook if they are not controlling the health care in America like they have been. They are not working for better health care in America. They are working for a more profitable health care industry - something that makes them better off financially. If your state botched their health care reforms, then perhaps the Federal Government can learn from that. If your guy and Obama are buddies, don't you think that maybe they've discussed the possibilities?

plain: "Why do you keep insisting that Americans are confused? Did The Huffington Post say that or something?" You don't think that Americans are confused about what is proposed for health care? Cool. Everybody's onboard. Everybody doessn't want it, right? Ok man, whatever you say. I do not read the Huffington Post. Is that comment from the same person who says he doesn't ONLY listen to Fox and the right wing politicoes? And he knows what both sides are to the argument? Then why do you think that I don't know both sides to the argument and only read things like the Huffington Post to the exclusion of right wing publications? (That's what you seem to be suggesting.) plain: "And RE: rabble rousing folks, you might want to remember how liberal college students shouted down every conservative speaker that was invited to speak." Is that so? EVERY conservative speaker was shouted down at EVERY event where a conservative speaker was invited to speak? My, my, my, that kind of statement gives your real lack of open-mindedness away, plain. I doubt very seriously if EVERY event happened that way. I also doubt that EVERY town hall meeting held by EVERY Democrat congressperson has been demonstrated against by right wingers. Absolutes will get you everytime. As for finding the place where you think that I said EVERY right winger or EVERY leftist, blah, blah, blah... knock yourself out. It should be entertaining. There didn't seem to be much media coverage of protests that went on when Bush spoke. Most Bush events were much more controlled. Dissenters were usually kept outside. Notice I didn't say ALWAYS. But it sure wasn't reported by the media very often when it did happen. At least to my knowledge (which we all know is extremely limited, right?) plain: "How do YOU know these protests aren't genuine? Because the democrats say so?" No, because I say so. Heh, heh, heh. Some of the protestors are very genuine. They have been worked into a frenzy and are scared half to death. Of that I have no doubt.

Yeah!! The reign in Spain stays mainly on the plain.

See there plain, all you have to do is go after it if you want to read the bill. I've worked as a legislative aide and what you suggest as transparency, a place where everybody can read it as it goes along, is a great idea. Write your congressman. But if you allow other people, complete strangers, affect your thinking just because you like the sound of what they're saying, then that's really too bad. The only way to fully understand what's going on is if you do your own research and make sure that you not only understand the bill, but you also understand all the implications. Not an easy task for congresspeople, much less us commoners. Besides, most of us are willing to take someone else's word because it is so much easier. And many of us just like to give the opposition hell, whether they deserve it or not. You know, the ole' drinking the kool-aide thing that Republicans like to accuse everybody else of doing.