BJean

Yeah right, you like to PLAY doctor, I've heard.

I like it when you're respectfully assertive. What makes you think that the majority of Americans think about it as you do? (um, the majority of REGULAR people? Versus irregular people? Please explain the difference between the regular people and the irregular ones.) At any rate, I respectfully disagree that the majority of people believe as you do about the healthcare crisis. You can't understand that because you obviously surround yourself with people and information that feeds your thought processes to the exclusion of all else.

It sounds like fundamentalists think that because Obama made a statement that is indeed true about the U.S., that the U.S. is not just an exclusively Christian nation, it means that Obama is not a Christian. I am quite certain that President Obama and his family are good Christian people. Fundamentalists have a problem with the fact that President Obama cares about all of the citizens of the United States. He doesn't discrminate against people of other religions and ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Fundamentalist right wing extremists do discrminate against anyone who believes differently than they do, as was demonstrated by the actions of fundamentalist Christians, Cheney and Bush. And as demonstrated by the fundamentalist who not too long ago murdered the "abortion doctor" in his church. When one decides that their beliefs are the only truth, and the only acceptable beliefs to God, that is all that matters. Nothing else is important. It's a frightning dogma. Thank goodness that all Christians aren't so exclusionary and distainful toward people of other religions and toward non-religious people. If they had been throughout America's history, this country would not have been able to become the wonderful country that it has. They believe that their brand of Christianity is what made this country great, but they are very wrong. Their brand of Christianity has caused pain and suffering throughout the ages and it continues to cause division within our country.

When the wealthy and big business have been given all the tax breaks and incentives and they simply shove all their profits into their pockets and continue to raise their prices for even more pocket stuffing, the time has come to put a stop to it!!!! When was the last time that a large corporation made obscene profits and decided to pass the savings on to you? When was the last time the electric companies lowered your rates? It was when the goverment became involved and forced them to. When THE telephone company kept gouging us and our phone service became unaffordable, the government had to step in and force them to break it down and the government created a situation where THE telephone company could no longer have a monopoly on something as basic as telephone communication. I guess if you're a slumlord and a business owner, it is understandable why you're all for obscene profits. You aren't bothered by the fact that the poor are getting poorer and the middle class in America have been losing jobs and losing their homes. And the wealthy? They're wealthier than ever, by such a long shot that there are have been more billionaires created in this country than anyone would have thought possible. These billionaires have been created over the same period of time when our poor and middle class have been getting their backs broken by all of the unfair advantages that the wealthy have over them. What part of that is fair and what part of that is good for America as a country? Especially when these filthy rich corporations do not pay their fair share in taxes which would go a long way in helping bring some fiscal balance to the picture. You probably think that it is wonderful that someone like Ted Turner is so unbelievably wealthy that he can go around the world and buy up millions upon millions of acres of land, supposedly in the interest of environmental protection. Never mind that millions of Americans couldn't afford to have access to the cable television that Mr. Turner made much of his money on. You probably think it is fabulous that two of the most wealthy men in America have joined together to set up a philanthropic organization to do some good, right? Well what I'd like to know is why those same men didn't cut their prices for computer software for instance, which might have made them less able to give away money, but would have allowed more Americans to have access to that fabulous computer software. Greed and power - it's all good right? When does conscience play a role in capitalism? When does responsibility in business and love of one's country and one's fellowman play a role in big business? When did loyalty to one's employees get replaced by a corporation's need to make obscene profits? When did "downsizing" a company's workforce so that their bottom line looked better and watching their employees get booted out of their homes become such an acceptable way of doing business in America? Do you have no concept of fairness and caring and trust and all the good things in life? Why does the love of money have to be what America is all about? Why does the acquisition of material things and power over others have to supercede everything else in this country? Why doesn't this greedy corporate behavior stick in your craw and make you PB? :biggrin:

My story is much worse than your's Cleo'smom. I spelled it all out in a post and in my frenzy, after typing it all out, I accidentally dumped it. I'm sure most of you are thrilled that you've been spared from my personal experiences trying to get medical care and my rant about my frustrations with it. But I have to say that we need the government involved because that is the only way we the people are going to be able to get control our own health care again. We've spent the past 30 years or so becoming more and more dependent on insurance companies to pay for the astronomical costs of medical treatment and now THEY are in control of our medical care. And now, good healthcare has become difficult to obtain - and at this point, the best case scenario is IF we can even GET insurance coverage. Good medical care is a life and death issue. It is not like boats or cars or houses or even public education. It is something that all Americans deserve. It is not something that would just be nice if everyone could have it. It should be as basic to our existence as citizens of this country as is our protection from the threat of war. Nearly all other countries understand that basic premise. Americans are so under the influence of this current system that they have no idea what an abomination the healthcare system in America really is. When we became more and more dependent on the insurance companies to pay for the astronomical cost of healthcare, we became victims of the insurance companies bottom line, because you can be sure that the insurance companies aren't in the healthcare business as an act of charitable kindness. They're in it to make money and make money they darned sure do. Billions of dollars every year. And our health care suffers everytime they go up on our rates and slash our benefits. And we are frustrated and doctors are frustrated and it continues to decline. More people become uninsured everyday and when they do, they lose the ability to pay for medical care. Why can't everyone understand this? Why have Americans bought into the concept that healthcare should be a "for profit business" instead of the life preserving and life saving proposition that we all should be able to have access to? Without government involvement, it is going to only get worse. That we know for a fact. We have a good long history that has brought us to this place. How can people doubt that we have a system of healthcare in America that is sadly inferior to several other countries and less than what Americans deserve?

paycuts? tax cuts? You mean like the, what, $600 humongous tax rebate the last president gave you? Did you go spend it and did all Americans go out and spend theirs and regenerate the economy? That was such a meaningless display of generosity on the part of that president that it was laughable. You've been listening to too many replays of Ronnie's "the only good government is no goverment" which was always amusing seeing as how he participated in government, both national and state government and under his "leadership", the government grew. The whole concept of not wanting government at all is absurd and you know it. I can understand why you want programs to be run as efficiently as possible, but to constantly bellow about getting rid of government is a waste of time and energy. You can't get rid of the government. If you want to made adjustments, work on them one program at a time. Just to holler about "government" being the demon of society is utterly wrong and simply making people feel disgruntled with their country as a whole. Because you sure can't have a country like the United States without goverment. And if you think that it is a good thing to not take care of our own members of society, provide roads and schools and such, and you don't think that Americans are entitled to the best health care in the world, then what kind of person are you?

Amen Sista. And I wrote the President telling him that he needs to quit goofing around trying to please everybody on this issue - as well as the ones you mentioned. We need to get the heck out of Afghanistan and Iraq. better public schools, environmental concerns and less dependence on foreign oil (and that does not mean, drill, baby, drill.) We're the only industrialized nation on the earth that does not see the wisdom in a healthcare system for all our people. Life and death should not be a for-profit option in the U.S. That's what people are talking about when they just want to rein in the insurance companies and enact tort reform. Neither of those things should have any control the medical care people in the U.S. can rely on for good preventative health care and the best medical treatments in the world.

Boom, boom, pow, kitty, you look positively stunning.

supposed to be an excellent complexion elixer. (or so I hear)

What do you think that the plan entails, patty? The government just picking up the tab for eveyrone's medical care? Au contrare, mi amigo. Don't drink anymore of the kool-aide - it's getting to your brain.

Read my lips... go spend money! Yay President Obama for stimulating the economy! That's the best example you could set for Americans. Americans out of your frightened little shells, quitcher bellyachin' and get out and have some fun.

Weiner wrap a dog.

patty, I do not paint all Republicans with the same right wing extremist brush, but I do paint all right wing extremists with the same fanatical brush. I can understand your dismay with the decisions that President Obama has taken to undo some of the horrible policies that the previous administration put into effect that nearly put our country in the financial crapper. (The administration and the Republican dominated Congress, that is.) But President Obama is a learned man and he has been smart enough to glean every bit of wisdom available from the financial wizards in America before making his decisions. He knows that it may not work. He also knows that it has just as good a chance of pulling us out as the actions that earlier presidents used during recessions and depressions. I understand why you're freaking out. But calm down. If he didn't take some of the actions he's taken, things could have gotten much, much worse. He has promised that he will not approve any health care bill that we cannot pay for. And as for some of the money he's spent, like the cash for clunkers deal, he has high hopes that it will help stimulate the economy by getting some new cars sold. He may use similar plans to help revitalize other areas of the brain-dead economy. We should all hope that it works. And if it does, there will eventually be an economy boom - a rebound, if you will - that will make you whiners eat your words. Then once everything is booming again, if history serves us well, you'll put another Republican in office who will pull the same crap all over again and you'll be a deliriously happy camper. Patience, my dear.

kartman I agree that the way things have happened in the past regarding malpractice lawsuits got way out of control. Just like some facets of capitalism. Greed has a way of doing that to folks. But some of the people who are pro-tort reform would like nothing better than to make it illegal for people to sue for malpractice at all. It's a basic legal right - to hold someone accountable for gross negligence. And it needs to be said that is certainly not a panacea for providing better health care to the general public. It would primarily solve problems that the insurance companies have with enormous payouts for the doctors they insure who are charlatans. ("Quack" sounds so unsophisticated for people who have been through the educational process and yet still cannot practice safe medicine.)

Tort reform is a lot about insurance companies being able to keep more money. We shouldn't sacrifice individuals' rights in preference of the insurance companies bottom line.

I agree that the "letter" and pattyg's comments are inane and loaded with hyprocrisy. I was so grossed out all I could do was meet it with sarcasm. I am overwhelmed by the great responses that so many of you have made. I usually find myself alone in a debate such as this - except that kartman jumps in when he can't stand it anymore. And he always says it so much better than I. You have all made relevant points: cleo'smom, kartman, jennifer and others - you know who you are, and I sure do appreciate what you've posted! I especiallly agree with the fact that it appears that the right wing doesn't really care one whit about our government helping to provide us all with a better healthcare system. All they seem to be desperate to accomplish is to bash Obama and cloud the issues. These days they don't seem to be fooling so many people with their scary words and deeds. Nearly everybody is beginning to see them for what they are and realizing what they're up to. All this talk about tort reform being the answer is not correct either. We have to be very careful about tort reform. We shouldn't penalize people who have been maimed or killed by doctors who are guilty of malpractice by limiting their lawsuits. That's getting the whole thing bassackwards. The lawsuits can be handled better in our courts and frivilous lawsuits should be thrown out post haste, but don't let them fool you - tort reform isn't JUST about lawyers getting money!

Good man!! I've tried several times to give it up for Lent, but am always sucked back in with apparently no regard for inane, insane, absurd, anger-inducing content. Just shows you're a better man than I. Hang in with the exercise. It's a good steam letter offer. :w00t:

hey kartman! My rant on plain felt soooo good. It may not have made much sense, but I feel better. That's what counts right? 'cause it's all about me!! Go ahead, give it all ya got. You'll feel better. Btw, it's perfectly acceptible to slip in any rant you want. Especially if it's a personal attack. *grin*

Oh patty, aren't you the one who thinks capitalism is wonderful and perfect and the trickle down theory is just what it's cracked up to be? You champion the big money people because you think it will eventually be passed along to the po' folks? Spending money is what will help get us back on track. The moneyed folks need to be an example, is that what you're saying? Well, that's what they're doing. I seem to remember that you went on a vacation.

Hogwash! I couldn't disagee with you more. Of course you have every right to claim anything you wish about how lousy our government is. That sure don't make it the gospel.

You have such a good sense of humor, plain. But your condescending attitude really wears thin. You honestly think that Kinky is the best person for the job? Any job? Good luck with that. AnnNo, you're quite wrong about me. You proclaim that I am a die-hard Democrat who has no common sense or ability to choose the kind of candidate that I believe can do a good job and make a difference, beyond the party line. Just because you disagree with everything I say, you've compartmentalized me and well, I guess I just really wish you'd stick to the issues instead of trying to put a label on either me or pattyg. I have a sneaking suspicion that this being a moderator thing has for some unknown reason gone to your head. It seems to make you think you can go about correcting everybody's posts and making folks feel bad for saying what they believe. No, I haven't observed this in your recent posts necessarily, however I have been noticing it here and there and it is really weird. I know you don't care if you're liked but you gotta understand that we don't care if you like us either. We have every right to say what we think. You can disagree all you want, but dude, get over yourself. Correcting us is pretty silly. Even I was asked to be a moderator. Hit don't make you special or more intelligent or better able to use logic or reason than everybody else. Really.

"Yet though you've seen government failure after government failure coupled with fiscal irresponsibility on top of that failure, you seem to somehow believe that the government will do a better job of taking care of this mess than if some regulations and reform at the base level were implemented." Beth I believe we have no choice but for the government to get involved. Just like in the banking industry and housing industry and many other places that we have to muscle our way in to keep this country strong and to keep our citizens from being ground into the mud by the people who have the power to do it and stand to gain financially by doing it. We're not making this move to change the healthcare system because it is working well. We're getting government involved because the health care industry, including pharmacuticals, doctors, hospitals and the insurance industry can't do it for us. They have way too much to lose. And in fact, they are the ones who are fighting us every step of the way and they are the ones who have put a stop to changes in health care in the past. And on top of that, I do not believe that the government behaves irresponsibly like you say. We've worked in the government, in some of the biggest parts of the government and trust me, you only wish that private corporations had the kind of controls and transparency that most branches of the government have. It's very popular to bash the government. Fact is, we can't do without it and have the country that you say you're so proud to live in. I am not saying that the plan put forth in the House is what I would choose, if I had the chance. But I do believe that no plan is far worse than doing nothing and keeping things as they are. Could it be improved, hell yes. Will it be done? Probably not. And one reason is because there is so much B.S. that is out there muddying the Water. If we could handle this in a straight forward way - without lobbyists and palm crossing of big bucks, we could hash out a decent plan. I will admit that most people, by human nature, are afraid of change. But when you have to live with a medical system that is run by big money and you fight battles all the time just trying to get a doctor, the proper diagnosis and treatment, good safe care in the hospital, medications that are top-notch that you can actually afford, and an insurance company that won't cut you off if you get a recurrence of cancer, where your treatment is limited to what you can afford out of pocket (as happened with my school teacher sister, who subsequently died), it is easy to see that although change is scary, not making some major changes can threaten your health and even your life. We're stupid if we, as a country, don't understand that after years of dealing with the system the way it is. Just because it hasn't happened to you or one of your loved ones doesn't mean it isn't going on every single day.

plain since you say that, "Of course we need reform. It's how that reform will take shape and what the cost will be that divides" it would be beneficial if you could actually map out the plan that you and the brilliant minds you support, can git 'er done. People don't understand what is on the table right now and part of the reason is because people keep saying all kinds of stuff that might sound logical on the surface, but it is not logical. It is just chatter that clouds the real issues. No wonder people are so confused. I have not intimated that opposition to Obama is anything but political opposition. I can't imagine that everyone who opposes Obama and his political views is a racist. That's just plain stupid and I don't believe that for one minute. And that is very offensive that you would suggest that his race is the reason people don't agree with him. Of course there are racists in America, but it doesn't mean that people oppose the President because he is of a mixed race. If your response to my post is an example of how you go about explaining "... each of those seperately, if you want me to" don't bother. I'm pretty sure I understand where're you're coming from. First of all, you disagreed with me that we don't have the best medical care in the world. So, I don't think I need you to explain cost, availablity and quality for me. And secondly, you've talked a lot on this topic on various threads but I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that you have a clue how this "rotten in Denmark" system that we have will actually be fixed. And btw, the reason you keep hearing it brought up that people were not outraged by our former president, when he was indeed completely outrageous is because it is a very important part of our history. Is there some reason other than historical significance which causes everyone to continue to talk about Reagan, Kennedy, Carter and other past presidents and their behavior in office? We hear about Clinton, ad nauseum, and usually the reference has nothing to do with anything but his sexual indiscretions. So sit back and get used to it. You'll be hearing all about President Obama once he's out of office too. It's a part of our history and part of our learning experience if we are smart. And comparisons are always inevitable. We learn when we contrast and compare, right?

Uh the reason Ted Kennedy didn't do what he proposed is because it was only a proposal - it hasn't been put into action yet. Unfortunately people like Ted Kennedy are the people in the U.S. who can call the shots with their health care (if you'll pardon the pun). Most of us cannot. We're jerked around like puppets and we pay through the nose for the privilege. The interesting thing that you all seem to agree on is that the insurance companies are at the root of the problem. Do you think that if we tell them that they can't operate the way they've been doing it, they'll change the way they do business? And that action will revamp health care in America? Sure, and I have some beach front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

Just as I suspected... a closet LIBERAL! Muahahahahaha!