BJean

patty: "NO, this is about the government as a whole, no matter what color their skins may be." That may be true for you patty, but for many people it is about the fact that the president is not a WASP. I found it interesting while trying to catch up on this thread to read that you continue to think that tort reform will fix the healthcare system. It won't. It will put more money in the hands of the insurance companies which has never improved our health care. It has only proved to make health care less attainable for some and keeping those of us who are insured from making our own decisions about our medical treatment. I'm not saying that tort reform isn't needed. The huge class action lawsuits should probably be controlled in some way. But I will shout to the top of my lungs (as if anyone would listen) that we the people should always have the right to legal redress if we have been wronged by malpractice or gross negligence. You say you are worried about the government controling everything but you want to take away the individual's rights to keep the government from controlling us. I don't get it. plain, what do you mean I "claim" to support an individual's right to own a gun? Nice to know that what I say makes such an impression on you that you'd use me to make your lame case. The radical, extremist right wing in this country has been far more lethal in the process of taking the law into their own hands than the left has. And I challenge anyone to come up with solid facts to dispute it. Unless you've been living under a rock, all you have to do is read the paper or do a very small amount of research to figure that out. In the big picture, think about the people who have been assassinated. And it sure isn't the right wing or Republicans who've been killed or blown up. kartman you live in a more liberal state. So I think your experience is a little different than for some of us. I live in a very conservative state and my personal experience is different from say, you or someone who's from Vermont. But as a nation, it's the people who are angry over religious issues, the government's supposed domination, race, abortion, gun control, health care reform, etc., who are not just vocal but who are willing to use violence to demonstrate their beliefs. That is why it is so irresponsible for our politicians and the "news" media to encourage people to show up with guns and encouraged to shout down the opposition and encouraged to bring what might normally be a dissenting voice to such a fevered pitch that they have become dangerous. I think we can all agree that anyone who uses guns or bombs when trying to make a statement against something, are wackos. But when someone loses a life or a building or a child in that building, to them it really doesn't matter a lot to which side the perp leans. I believe in our right to peaceful demonstration. I believe in our right to free speech. I do not believe in some wack job's right to use lethal weapons to make their points. It is dangerous and I hold some of the nuts on the Fox network and some of the nutty politicians responsible for the way their disagreement with the left has become so volatile. They're being irresponsible and they should be called on it - like the president has said he would.

Some people do not believe that the only way people will get into heaven is exclusively through the route you have described. We think we are just as correct in our thinking and believing as you think you are. Many of us have spent as much time studying, praying and reflecting and more studying of the Bible as those of you who think you have the only true ticket that will allow entrance into God's heaven. I am sure it is baffling to you to some extent because I am sure that you believe that your reading and studying of the Bible has given you the only real truth and insight for inclusion into the kingdom of God. And I have no doubt that you think those of us who disagree with you are going to hell. But we do not agree with you and we do not believe as you do and we are just as likely to be right as you are. Furthermore, since we do disagree with your single-minded approach to the Bible, we may from time to time feel sorry for you and try to help you. Because we believe strongly that your way is very wrong and that you will not be judged to be worthy of God's literal presence, upon Jesus' return. We are only trying to help you by having this discussion.

patty you have elevated yourself to such a high up, superior, holier-than-thou level, I'm sure it would be impossible for me to look down on you. To answer your question: I have tried to explain on other threads that I do believe that you are too narrow in your thinking and that God is not happy with people who use the Bible against others in the way that you do and that you need to change your thinking from narrow-minded, hell, fire and brimstone condemnation-to-hell thoughts, to focus on love, goodness, sweetness, caring, non-judgemental, big-hearted, steadfast and true thoughts. You know, like me. :tongue2:

Wong Way Wilson.

patty: "Make sure you scroll down this page a bit to view the protestors. "But before you do, please take a moment to read his every word, for they are in complete alignment to how I feel on this issue." Seriously, patty? Seriously? Because how could anyone here not know how you feel about this issue?

Well although I think it's big of you not to hate me patty, I hope you realize that you posted it just below something that someone else had posted. Then you post a comment that you think two wrongs don't make a right (I shortened the idea a bit) and then you go on to post all the stuff about protestors who were against Bush. Don't you know how disengenuous that seems? And how your credibility suffers because of things like that?

Wow, another red herring. congratulations, for I am sure you thunk up this nicotine thing as being the answer to the health care problem all on your own. patty your side says we are all for death panels and all kinds of dopey bull. Your side says we are socialists. You call us and Obama all kinds of unflattering things. Things that frankly are not true. No wonder we think that those who engage in this, instead of trying to seriously change the health care industry and solving the problem, are not too bright. That kind of name calling and the attempt to sideline the real issues by saying ALL government is bad, stop smoking and it'll fix health care, just invoke terms limits, limit malpractice lawsuits, etc., are extremely transparent. None of those things will solve the problem. The are important issues, but those things will not solve the problem. But you seem to be having fun, so have at it.

Oh kartman I guess I should apologize for calling you my "buddy" because you might very well not want to be considered my bud. I am sorry.

I'm with you buddy. Some of these folks are a lost cause.

Oh my I help, please oh please oh please? Think we can get someone like Ann Coulter for his running mate?

kateman, if only I had your strength.

Nothing I said suggests that God doesn't exist. I could worry about God's return to earth, but right now I'm much more worried about the religious zealots who threaten my existence. It is one thing to speak of righteousness and quite another to practice it. The interesting thing is that you and I disagree on what that consists of.

123crod: I'm not sure that there is a spiritual war going on. I believe it is more of a regligious war. The same kind of religious wars that we read about in the middle east and elsewhere. It revolves around the many citizens' in a country interpreting their Bible, or whatever writings that they believe they are meant to follow, each very differently. Take the Muslim religion, for example. Some Muslims believe that killing is a major sin. Other Muslims believe that to kill in the name of Allah, to get rid of the horrible infidels who go against Allah's teachings, will be praised by Allah and that if they die in martyrdom for Allah, they will be rewarded by having virgins handed to them in heaven. Right here in America, people who believe in the Bible certainly don't all agree either. Some believe that war is justified if they believe that some other ruler is a bad guy and in some way threatens our 'righteous' nation. Other believers in the Bible believe that Jesus taught us that killing is a sin and that no one should kill another human being, ever. Can you explain how we, as a nation, should be able to get along if we don't all agree on our basic religious beliefs? Are we destined to go to war - fighting within our own neighborhoods against those whose religious beliefs are so different from our own? How bad do you think it will have to get here in the United States before we choose to pick up arms and fight for our own personal interpretation of the Bible?

There is hell, but not a literal hell, eh? God is fire but not a literal fire. Whenever the Bible speaks of fire, it speaks merely of God's judgement, you say. Interesting. I always find it very interesting that you say you believe in the Bible - literally. And you argue that various translations over the years have not changed the meaning of the original words. You must believe, in order to justify your claim that one can believe that the Bible is literal and self-explanatory, that it contains no ambiguous messages. Imprisioning someone for life and separating them from society because they broke the law is, you say, the same as hell is meant to be interpreted in the Bible. With the understanding of course, that one will not be separated from society, but from God. Please explain to all of us how you have come to believe those things. Because it seems to me that you use the Bible to justify your interpretations, yet you say that the Bible can be taken literally because it has not been changed in any substantive way from the day it was written. But, my goodness, if we do take the Bible literally, God must indeed be real fire, as it is written, no? And I don't see how you can deny that there are mysterious passages in the Bible that you have to interpret in order to explain everything. Especially since you're interpreting some things in your post regarding what the Bible means about hell and fire. Tell us please, how do you know, for sure that God is not literally an all-consuming ball of fire? Take your time. We're in no hurry. :laugh:

patty I believe that YOU are sick of both parties and that some people share that illness. However many people are very happy with the Democratic party and have very high hopes that Obama can fix some of the horrible things that the Bush administration did to this country. And we have high hopes that problems can be fixed like improvement of our public edcuation system, like environmental protections enhanced, the health care system revamped, our infrastructure repaired and improved, tax incentives for people who do things to help green up America instead of the incentives to those who are simply motivated by greed, and much more. The Dems that are unhappy, as far as I'm concerned, are those who probably would only have been happy if the Democratic candidate was a male WASP. Who needs 'em!

Cleo's, well yeah, they get away with it and continue to do it because the media latches onto to it and makes a big deal out of it. I must say though, even though it makes sense to ignore them, it doesn't work And it works so well because if you want to believe something bad about someone, and you hear a lie about them, even if it is entirely implausible you decide that it is true and you repeat it to everyone you know. These clowns have been conditioned for years and years by Rush Limbaugh saying these things and getting away with it. Now they have it coming at them by different people, constantly. The liars and perpetuaters of the lies are in hog heaven. And the people who believe it all, without question, are incited into a frenzy of hate. Like one of the people who was commenting on all the lies about proposed health care changes said, the interesting part is that the right has some serious health care issues that they could be spending their time on. Issues that are actually important to a lot of people. Instead, they are trying to topple the man and in the meantime, those issues are being ignored. What a rip off for honest Republicans. Wait, isn't that an oxymoron?

Yeah kartman. It's like when you meet someone and you don't think they're very pretty and then you get to know them and they seem beautiful to you? Well that's the way it is with Palin, in reverse.

Hows come you got that crazy little red box thingy, patty?

patty's just trying to get people stirred up and discussing Glen Beck. He doesn't deserve one iota of anyone's time. Far be it from me to criticize someone's reading matter. I'd think it would go a long way toward converting patty to the Democratic causes. The Dems who have been obstructing progress are doing it simply because it gives them some power. In the end, they will vote the right way, and for the reason ya'll said. They want to get reelected. When Bush was in office, yeah all he had to do was tell 'em what he wanted and they fell in line. It was a Republican dominated Congress, folks. Besides, no one wanted to be on Cheney's "F U" list. The "You're Wrong" folks are crawling out of the woodwork and having a rally this weekend. We need to get out the fire hoses :-) Seriously though, it will be great to see who shows up so they can be easily identified. Think they're being encouraged to bring their guns. Even better. Maybe some of them will shoot off their pistolas and it'll be a good excuse for the gendarmes to return fire. They're selling tee shirts like hotcakes. We need to raise some of our own money with "Wrong Way Wilson" shirts. Seriously you all, why is anybody taking these clowns seriously? Btw, anyone notice how rough Sara Palin looks without her $100,000 wardrobe and her makeup and hair artists?

Cleo'sMom and HappyHomeCC are totally right - why don't we vote? I think many people don't vote because they are so busy working, taking care of their families and making ends meet, they don't want to spend the time researching the candidates. So they just sit back and take whatever they get. Most of them don't think it makes a lot of difference which party is in office anyway. Which is wrong, of course, but that's what a lot of people think. If our voting rights were taken away, we would begin to understand how important the right to vote really is. I feel a strong undercurrent today of a fast-emerging Independent party coalition. I've always said that there will never be enough Independent registered voters and money behind them to be a driving force in a national political race. However with the extreme right wing neocons take over of the Republican party, I am changing my tune. I think that there are a lot of moderate Republicans who feel they have no choice but to switch over to the Independent party. There may even be some moderate Democrats who join it as well. So maybe in 2012, it might just amount to something. I have to say that the longer President Obama is in office though, the more moderates will see that he is actually a relatively moderate president. Things are certainly getting very interesting. I am relieved that the media, due to last nights' outburst in the joint session, is finally reporting on how ridiculous and inappropriate the extremists are behaving.

I heard a Brit say today that their campaign time before an election is 4 weeks! I get goose bumps thinking about how great that would be for us. But kartman is right, that would give a huge advantage to incumbents because they already have exposure during the term they won. The interesting thing about term limit debates is that the congress will only do something if we rise up and influence the media to make them so uncomfortable that they seriously address the issue. But if they can't agree on something as basic and important as health care, just think what a can of worms would be for them to try to agree on term limits. That's like getting them to vote on giving up free postage for their mailings.

Didn't we borrow from China to keep the war in Iraq going? And patty must be very conflicted about that. She supports the war but is against borrowing for it. It is downright silly when someone says that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are keeping us safe. They think that by sending our troops over there to die, then the average American citizen or two thousand might be saved because we're keeping the terrorists off our soil. What about the thousands of American lives that have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan? Don't they count at all? Aren't they just as important as you and I or the people who worked in the World Trade Center? How can one say they are being patriotic by supporting a senseless war that is killing our men and women? That's what they think is caring about our troops and supporting them? Oh my.

I watched part of the Larry King interview John McCain last night. Interesting. Larry asked McCain what he thought about the president saying if people lie about what's in the healthcare bills and if they continue to make up stuff to scare Americans that he (Obama) is going to call them out on it. McCain said that he thought that was wrong of Obama and that he shouldn't have said that. But what Larry King didn't follow up with was why is it acceptable for people like Sarah Palin to go public with claims that are outrageous and untrue? Republicans obviously have no intention of reaching across the aisle (like last night when they sat there with their arms folded, grim-faced when everyone else was giving the president an ovation when he said that Americans deserve a better health care system) and refuse to work with Democrats to change a system that is not serving the American people and is only boosting the insurance companies' bottom line. This is a life and death situation that has become unfair and intolerable and Americans deserve better. We look to the congress and president for help. Republicans are refusing to engage and compromise and get something done. Americans should not put up with it!

Were you right wingers all proud of the way your people in Congress behaved last night? I'll bet you were. You probably think it was fantastic that one of your heros yelled out at the president that what he was saying was a lie. I hope you realize that the Republican's behavior last night exposed what they're all about. They are obviously in the pocket of the insurance companies since the president's remarks about making it illegal for them to not insure anyone with a preexisting conditiion were received by the Republicans with such disdain. Have you ever seen such sour looks and ugly demeanor before when a president has addressed congress? I never have. I heard one of the Republicans afterwards saying that the Democrats refused to include some of the Republicans proposals in the bills that are being considered and so they just aren't going to work with the Democrats on it. So it sounds like the Republicans are saying it's their way or the highway. In other words, the American people won't be getting any help at all from Republicans on ensuring that we have attainable and affordable health care. I hope Americans don't forget this mess when they go to the polls to vote for these clowns again and they toss the bums out.

Kat-thank you for clarifying it for me. I was really surprised that you would take that position and post something like that. I should have known better. I just got in a hurry and didn't realize that you were quoting someone. Sorry about that! In Florida when the powers that be did all the PR and talked people into voting for the lottery, they did it by telling us that a big piece of the money made from it would be put into the schools. But guess what? Yeah, they put a piece of the lottery pie into the schools but they also took away the money that the schools had been getting from taxes before the lottery. After the lottery was started the schools had even less to work with than before. It was a dirty lousy trick and I hope that the people in Florida have fixed it by now. New Mexico it seems, has a conscience and a concern for public education. I don't know if Bill Richardson had anything to do with getting it right there, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.