BJean

I don't believe that anyone believes this: patty: "I know some of you don't believe that it is murdering a life, but take a look at some new technology and sonograms of babies in the womb and tell me that its not alive. Pro choicers like to say it's not a life because then it makes what they want to be able to do acceptable." How can anyone say that human cells that comprise a sperm and an egg aren't life or living? They can't and they don't. But that doesn't mean that the blob of cells is a person. For all your videos of babies moving in a womb, there is science that shows that until a certain stage, a fertilized egg cannot survive without its' host and hasn't actually developed into the stage where it can be called a complete human being. The promise is there, the biology is not. If you were arguing against murdering a child that a woman (or man) was holding in front of his or her body, totally independent of each other, then no one would disagree with you. But this situation is very different and you and others who do not believe it is a woman's choice, know it full well. You make the argument about it being pure and simple murder because it is the only argument that could ever possibly make a case for government legal intervention. Reproduction may be a religious matter to you, but scientifcally it is a fact that a fertilized egg must have certain very specific conditions met for it to become a person. It is not a person until those conditions are met. And most people know that the science is there, but the religious part of it is dependent on faith. Do not get faith and government intertwined because when you do, you run the risk of taking away the freedom to be an American that we all love and depend on. If you want to live in a religious country for a while, go to one and you will quickly learn why you love this country and what it promises you. You will quickly learn that as long as their government's laws agree with your faith, you can live a full life. But once the theocratic government's laws go against your faith, you will want to rebel and possibly take up arms against it. As they do in several nations like Iran.

And Michelle, that's what the government programs are designed to do. There isn't the age-old stereotypical scene of able-bodied people lined up with their hands out while the government just crosses their palms with cash without some accountability required. We're repeated the story of welfare fraud so many times it has become a mantra. Sure there's fraud in nearly every program we support with our tax dollars, but that doesn't mean that the programs aren't working for the greater good. We always need to b vigilent and working to keep any government run program or grant or subsidy honest. But too many people believe that the programs that help individuals and families are just passing out cash with no real benefit to society. That's not true. And no matter how much we all want to believe that everyone who accepts help is scamming the system, it just isn't true. Now explain to me how spending the trillions on weapons and defense and war is benefitting Americans as much as the piece of the tax pie that helps individuals does. If you can do that... I'll shut up on the subject. I'm not worried about having to shut up very much though.

patty: "You are soooo into your position on 'choice' that you can't even fathom the oppositions reasoning behind saving a life. It is therefore useless to debate the issue of abortion, because you are blinded to the truth about the baby in the womb as a real, live human being created by God. When you can't see that, you can't see anything." No patty, you're quite wrong. I do believe that a fertilized egg is life and I do believe that it is human. I just don't believe that it is a human being that should be given all the rights to live and be treated as a person - because it is not a person. And that's what I believe - just as you believe that it is placed in a mother's womb by God. You won't change my belief system and I won't change yours. But my beliefs are just as valid as yours. Just as you think you're backed up by the Bible, I believe I am backed up by science. But my real point is that no matter what you or I or the Pope or your preacher or anyone on this thread or anyone else believes - the point that I fight for - my true quest in all this is that it should not ever be a government controlled issue! That is my argument, pure and simple. I fight for people's right to believe whatever THEY believe. Not what you or I believe! I have no desire to control other women's bodies. You, on the other hand, think it is your right because you have that belief. Well my answer to that is that if you do not believe in abortion you should never have one. And the way it stands now is that the government will not force you to have an abortion for any reason. Even if we become overrun with babies and have no food for them. The government will not, as in some other countries, tell you that you must have an abortion if you become pregnant. And that is what it should never, ever do. No matter what you or I believe. And you should, for one minute, since you want me to put myself in someone else's position - you should put yourself in the position of the government telling you that you MUST have an abortion if you become pregnant. No matter what. Because to me, having the government intervene in people's lives in that way is no different than having the government intervene in people's lives who might find it necessary to have an abortion. That's what I fight for. No government intervention in people's reproductive lives. People can protect themselves and their babies however their God and their hearts tell them. It is not for our government to legislate such things.

patty: "I can give you example after example of people that I know personally who receive some form of government assistance who could help themselves instead, but it's there, so why should they? Too many examples. If I can give these examples, I'm sure everyone can. This shows me that the government is enabling people to be dependant upon them." Well I cannot give you ONE example!! You live in Connectiut and I live in Texas. Go figure. I believe that we have had a tremendous problem with generations depending on welfare in the past. We have cleaned it up considerably. There are more programs that actually help people get jobs and housing that they can afford and medical care instead of merely giving people an unaccounted for handout, like we used to. Our far bigger tax burden is the horrendous military mess we're in in the Middle East. The war in Iraq is costing you big bucks and why wouldn't you rather have your tax dollars go to helping people who are down and out in the USA than dropping bombs on random unfortunates in a foreign country? In the first case, we are bound to realize a very positive effect on our society and in the other, the wars, we gain nothing. Sure we say we're protecting the U.S. because that's the only way we can sell it to the gullible people who live with the fear mongering Washington dishes out. But it is an economical thing more than it is a mission for peace and we pay out of our pocketbooks each and everyday for something that represents death to American soldiers and death to many people who mean us no harm - the innocents in the line of fire. We can fight terrorism without bombing an entire country. After all, Bin Laden was supposedly in Afghanistan and we never found him. His organization has become bigger and stronger while we've fiddled in Iraq and fought an unwinable war in Afghanistan. And you and I are asked to pay billions upon billions of the dollars we work hard for each and every day to accomplish virtually nothing over there - and our dead and wounded just keep piling up.

And the handicapped foster children my niece has...

Bring back orphanages - we can get the thousands of imprisioned parents to work at them. We'll have to figure out something for them to do. Of course these orphanages and prisons are going to cost us a pretty penny in taxes. But not to worry, we've put away all those mean old parents who killed their daughter's babies. And maybe when the 9 year old girl who has had the abortion turns, let's say 12, we can put her in a reformatory where she belongs for killing a baby. Lots of prisons, reformatories and orphanages... cool, makes sense. Meanwhile, the rapist will probably be roaming the streets looking for more victims. We won't have enough room in our prisons to keep him off the streets. But I mean after all, priorities, right?

Anti-choice works for me. Give it some time. You'll get it if you try real hard.

And so now you want to imprison parents of raped girls who are carrying their perps fertilized egg if the girls get an abortion... Where does the insanity end? Carrie's totally right - it won't end until we're all barefoot and pregnant and can't vote anymore.

patty: "If yes, then she should be allowed an abortion because everyone has a right to defend their own life." You're in a small minority of anti-choice folks on this patty.

Yes, according to the anti-choice people, a fetus's life trumps the life of the woman - or girl, in the case of the 9 year old who has been brutally raped. We already have prisons full to bursting with people that we don't want to deal with. Drug addicts, drunk drivers, pot smokers and other "criminals" who need help in order to live and become a productive member of society. We don't want to deal with the problems so we shut people away in prison to the point that we allow murderers out of prison in order to house them. And now you think that incarcerating women who consider abortion is an acceptable answer to the problem of unwanted and unplanned pregnancies. It is ludicrous and it is inhumane. And ignorant, did I mention ignorant? Because it surely is an ignorant idea. And I'll tell you how ignorant these "pro-life" people are. They kill doctors who perform completely legal, life-SAVING, abortions. Kill them. How do you discuss this topic with them? You don't. They are completely irrational and ignorant and inhumane.

It isn't one program as some people seem to think. That portion of the pie chart includes a lot of programs. And yeah, it's approximately the 3rd largest piece of the pie. So why does everybody who complains about taxes act like it is the reason that they pay taxes - or the primary reason they pay taxes. It isn't.

Oh and don't forget their shoes - they're all out buying expensive athletic shoes, right?

The Baptist church where I was a member, denied communion to certain people. The First Christian Church, on the other hand, held an open communion and encouraged everyone to join in the ritual. The Catholic church has its' rules, just as other churches do. When my DH married me, a divorced woman, he was unable to take communion until my first marriage was annulled by the church. Well to be perfectly clear, if he had wanted to take communion, he could have. No priest would have stopped him at the altar and refused to allow him to sip from the cup. But they make their rules very clear to their parishioners and good Catholics wouldn't dream of going against those rules since most have been completely brainwashed at an early age, into believing that the Pope is infallible. But I agree with you C'sM. It is an awful thing to do - for a church to use an important religious sacrament to get their members to agree to their beliefs 100%.

Cleo'sMom and tdslf1, you peeps are the best.

Funny bumper sticker! It reflects how many people are feeling today about the right wing extremists trying to force their politics on everyone else. If America is made up primarily of Christian people, lots and lots of Christians get abortions.

The anti-choice's answer to what really happens to real women if they successfully legislate away the rights of women regarding abortion is always the same - tough luck, honey, if it means YOU die. They claim that tiny little blob of cells is a human being and that trumps any problems, physical or mental, that you have. They want to afford an embryo or stem cell all the rights and protection that the law offers every actual human being and they go so far as to stick the long arm of the law up a woman's vajayjay to prevent her from interfering with what they deem God's plan. If a woman is raped by some crazed monster and it results in a pregnancy - that's God's plan. If a woman has physical problems that would put her life at stake if she carried a baby to term, tough luck 'cause it's God's plan for her to die in order to give that fertilized egg a chance at survival. Oh man, I could go on and on with hundreds of very REAL scenarios that cause women to be in such horrible situations that they might need an abortion. But why bother? The right wing's answer is always the same - it's God's plan - so buck up sister. When that's your only answer, there's no discussion or reasoning or compassion or anything else to consider. They claim that God demands that every woman who becomes pregnant, no matter what the circumstances, MUST attempt to physically nurture the embryo to full term and produce the child, if at all possible, since that is within God's plan. When that is what you believe, you're going to do all you can to invade a woman's privacy and her body to enforce a rule that you believe is right and good to fulfill God's plan. All we can do is fight for our rights. Fight for our freedom to decide for ourselves what must be medically done to preserve our health and our lives. That means that we never give up the fight against the clergy and people who wish to control us and force us to do what they've deemed is God's plan. No matter how much guilt they heap on us, no matter how many gruesome photos they wave in our faces, no matter whether they point their guns at us or even shoot us. We cannot allow them to take control of our bodies by legally taking away every woman's right to make her own medical decisions to preserve her own health and well being. They plan to outlast us, wear us down and guilt Congress into doing their bidding. We must never allow that to happen.

See what I mean? I rest my case. If we participate on patty's threads we are pandering to her pontificating. It's on us. We know, by experience, what she's up to. So either we put up with it or we don't play into it by getting sucked into posting on her threads. Every time we make a statement, it is another opportunity for her to do her thang. I get into it with her because sometimes I find it fun and educational and it makes me feel better when I can punch holes in her logic. Why do you post on her threads?

Do you have any idea what proportion of your tax dollars actually goes to welfare programs specifically? Have you seen a pie chart of how much of your money actually goes to which government program? You might be surprised.

Every thread started by patty is a thread that was started so that she can pontificate to her little heart's content. Don't burst her bubble by telling her she's off subject. Religion is the center of her every thought. It helps take her guilt away.

Dude, what I want for America has nothing to do with the dictatorship in Cuba. You, on the other hand, talk like someone who would like to live in Mexico. You could be one of the elite, hog it all, and to hell with the peons. Let some other country give them work. That's what this country seems to be headed for under the likes of Bush/Cheney (although to be fair I should have put Cheney's name first.) And patty you should win just by virtue of the fact that you can post more bullshite. I hate to burst your bubble, but just because the extremists say it louder and more often doesn't make it a fact, darlin.

patty, where in the Bible did God "say" that the Old Testament rules should be totally ignored because they don't apply to people nowadays? And that nowadays began at exactly what point in time?

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head, CM's!!! The point is not or should not be whether a fetus is a blob of cells or a human being or a tumor. The argument is whether the government has a right to effectively interject itself into a woman's body, with the woman having no say in it. It is like something out of a sci-fi movie where some nameless, faceless entity is telling its' citizens whether they can or cannot reproduce, and if they can reproduce which sex it must be. We have learned a grim lesson from the time when our government told women what they legally must do if they became pregnant. What we learned is, legal or not, women will make their own decisions about their reproductive organs and they will make the decision to abort if it is absolutely necessary, whether it is legal or not and even when the woman risks her own life in the process by using some backstreet butcher. Making abortion illegal does not work and it is wrong.

Doncha love folks who are living in the most wonderful country in the world and they think that it got here because some yutz organized a find raising picnic and donated to the charity of their choice. That's not the way this country runs. Unfortunately we can't wait for people like you to muster up some element of kindness toward your fellow citizens to make this one of the most wonderful places on earth to live. The FAIR way to run this country and afford you the things that you expect and need your country to provide, is for everyone to pay their fair share to make it happen. If we waited for each individual to feel a sense of responsiblity for keeping America what it is and to achieve the standard of living other industrialized countries have, it would never happen. There are all these people who want to decide when and how much they're willing to contribute to keep our country great. They don't think it is FAIR for their country to ask them to pay for the roads they drive on, the military to keep them safe from invaders, the police officer who is available 24/7, the schools their children attend, the quality of water that is piped into their houses, the clean air they breathe, or the hundreds of other things that make us a civilized society - including hellping people who have lost their homes and everything else because of circumstances beyond their control. It all goes back to greed and no sense of responsibilty for community and nation. Well if you don't want to pay taxes, move someplace where you won't be taxed. Please send us a card and tell us all about how wonderful it is for you and yours. Because here in America, we take care of our country and our people. We step up to the plate and make things happen that will benefit us all. We are the patriotic ones, not the yutzes that wear a lapel pin and say they love their country but complain because they have to pay taxes because some part of it might go to help someone they don't think needs help.

Sarah Palin talks the talk. She just doesn't walk the walk. That's why her strong "Christian values" are proved to be ludicrous over and over. The lies that she spoke when she was running for vice president, about her opponents were a glaring example. She knew they were lies and a misrepresentation of the facts, but she repeated them over and over ad nauseum. Some Christian she is. She did not choose to abort her baby - which proves to anti-choice folks that she's against abortion - like she says. But then she did admit that she thought about it (if ever so fleetingly). It seems like she figured if she had her baby, it would make her political popularity soar with the extremists... which it has. But she uses her baby for political gain which is extremely sad and painful to watch. And not only did she choose to parade her handicapped baby before the public to win votes, she also trotted out her very young unwed daughter and her daughter's subsequent baby, which for right wing extremists, was powerful stuff. But to anyone with good reasoning skills, it only points out that her ideas on parenting don't amount to much. No sex ed? Come on! Now her daughter lives in the spotlight, under a microscope, as a testament to the ignorance of her parents. And her baby's daddy parades around proving that they are just like everybody else - young people in need of not only some preaching from the pulpit, but more importantly some very good basic sex ed which includes placing some effective birth control devices in their hands. Sarah Palin is beautiful, speaks with the utmost confidence and she's willing to get up in front of people and ask for their votes in spite of the really bad judgements that she's made throughout her life. That sure takes guts and since John McCain was peddling guts, she was his go-to guy. She's proven that as a candidate she is willing to do whatever it takes to get elected. That's an attribute that is often required for people in poltics. However, the more she's in the public eye the less likely it is that she will be elected to high office. She's got guts but just not smart enough or well-educated enough to run this country.

Obviously you read it wrong. It isn't assmunch, it's ass munch. Bigggg difference. Hope you have a happy 2010. Reading your posts this past year has been a weird combination of snotty and funny. Like I said, I prefer funny. You usually have a great sense of humor when you aren't making wild assumptions about mine or someone else's posts. Cheers!