BJean

Yes we keep drugs illegal and it's worked so well for us. Yeah, right. patty you're entirely wrong with your constant generalizations about which of the two extreme political viewpoints is held by the more morally upright citizens. It is even more biased and unfair than nearly everything you've posted. And that's saying a lot. Reading and quoting the Bible does not in any way define a person's moral standards. All it tells us is that the person can read and quote the Bible. The only way we can gauge a person's moral standards is to observe their behavior. If you go by the behavior of extremist, so-called Christian right wingers, one can quickly determine that for all their claims of being better people because of their Christian beliefs, they do not behave in such a way that they garner our respect. In fact, quite the opposite is true. So for you to continue to claim that right wingers and extremist conservatives take the higher moral ground is sure making you lose any credibility whatsoever.

and patty, I wrote my post. Who wrote yours?

Yeah, just a joke patty. I get it.

Well if liberals remind you of your lazy, good for nothing puppy... teabaggers and birthers remind me of one of Michael Vick's fighting pit bull dogs. Rush Limbaugh and Rupert Murdoch and the other "trainers" are the Michael Vicks of the right wing extremist pit bulls. Those guys, like Michael Vick, stand to make a lot of money and the poor pit bulls only know what makes sense to them after they're trained to gnarl, bite, thrash and kill if possible. They'll fight to the death no matter what it costs them personally.

Snap! two thumbs up.

Just because I disagree with you about everything you post? And because I call you out when I think you've posted something that doesn't make any sense? Hey, I'm actually not as mean as I sound. And I am a very compassionate person about many things. And I admit that I am very entrenched in my beliefs about politics and religion. I have come to be like this because I have learned a whole lot while I've been living. I'm not some innocent young pie-in-the-sky dreamer. I've been there and have seen that. So I have a lot to say on stuff. And when I think someone, anyone, is full of bull, I say so. But I don't know you personally. After reading your posts for so long I have a pretty good idea of who you are. I've known a lot of people like you. But of course you could be a big hairy guy that's 15 years old just yanking everybody's chain. That's the beauty of this forum. We can be whoever we decide we want to be. It's fun and it's anonymous so no harm, no foul. I use it strictly for my own theraputic shot in the arm.

I think I can speak for some of the posters here when I say that many anti-choice people prove that they demonstrate with their words and arguments that they do not care one whit about the women who are facing the horrible and gut-wrenching decision of whether to have an abortion. They argue for no gun legislation whatsoever. They wholeheartedly support capital punishment. Heck patty, even you say you want to imprison a woman who would make a decision to have an abortion. You don't care about the woman or her problems. You have made a decision about abortion being murder and you'll argue til the world looks level that women need to be forced to have babies and that women should not have the decision-making capability to make their own choices about whether or not to bring a living breathing human being into the world. Your answer to everything is that 1) adoption makes it ok to bring an unwanted, unplanned for or possibly deformed or handicapped child into the world and 2) the woman deserves what she gets for having sex. Some caring person you and other anti-choice people prove yourselves to be. Whether you fostered or adopted or personally had 10 kids means nothing when you make those incredibly incompassionate arguments about life and liberty in the U.S.A.

Good HONEST arguments about reforming certain programs and lowering taxes for middle income people and small business owners is welcome. Those things are interesting and give us valid points to debate. But the teabaggers, birthers, Joe the Plumber, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, the "Company" and the rest of the the gangsters that work for Rupert Murdoch are making the intelligent and informed conservatives look really, really bad. They're trying to scare the progressives with their proverbial torches, but they're slowly and surely burning the Republican party into the ground.

C'sM: You go girl!!! People accuse progressive people of drinking the "yes we can kool-aide" but I find that to be ludicrous. We've been saying the same things for years. We've been putting up with the Republicans and right wing for years. This president didn't invent any of what we're fighting for. He only gave us hope. The Republicans and ya-hoos like the bean brain pictured above have been led down some mighty absurd paths where they like to make believe that it's about the economy and taxes and big government. But those of us who know that the Republicans have been the downfall of a good solid strong middle America, just ain't buying the teabaggin' B.S. they're peddling.

Yeah, it gets boring. Yawn. Kidding! plain just for your information, I do not read the Huffington Post. Ever.

C'sM: I will listen to your rants anytime, anyplace. I like the fact that you are so well-informed. Of course I like the fact that you care about our country and our people and are fed up with extremist viewpoints that are elitest, exclusionary and unfair to most Americans.

We certainly do agree on that, Michelle! And I also agree that this has been a good debate and I always learn something from reading what others, like you, have to say. Thanks.

Thanks for that, HolliR.

There have been some incentives and restrictions put in place, but if lots of people who are able-bodied are still scamming the system as you say they are, then lots more work needs to be done to fix the system. We need to be lobbyists for that kind of change. But I will never try to take away all assistance for Americans who will perish due to neglect from our government (which is us.)

People have morals without religion. They know right from wrong without the Bible. Good and bad are obvious when you are exposed to life situations even from the time you are a small child. Some people are capable of being extremely good and some lean toward being extremely bad people. Some are born with disfunctional brains and black hearts. Some are born with brilliant minds and pure hearts. It has to do with our genetic makeup and with our exposure to our environment from the day we are born. What organized religion gives us is a well orchestrated sense of guilt. It gives us some good things as well. But it relies too much on guilt and fear for it to be the ultimate reason for people to be good. Many people use religion to be able to feel forgiveness for the terrible lives they have led or even continue to lead. Therein lies the rub. If people would just rely on their innate sense of fairness and good over bad, there wouldn't be this use of religion to excuse their wrongdoings by saying that God forgives them and so they will still go to heaven. Like heaven is the only reason they try to be better in this life - like the way out of their every bad decision is to ask for God's forgiveness and eventually get into heaven. They blame the devil for their wrongdoings and bad thoughts. In stead of taking responsiblity for their impure thoughts and wrong deeds, they blame someone or something else. I believe in spirituality and prayer but my goal in life is to be good to others and to live a life that God would be proud of, not in order to get into heaven. I believe that living a good life is a reward in and of itself. I know that if I am kind to others it is the right thing to do. And I know that when I think hateful thoughts about someone, they are my thoughts and I am responsible for them. I also believe that people on this earth, everywhere, have the right to live in peace. And they have the right to govern their own bodies and to live however their hearts and their minds guide them. We should not have a segment of society telling us that we must live exactly by their standards because I know that those people in that segment of their holier-than-thou society are merely people - they are imperfect and many times wrong. Spiritual and physical decisions in my life should be mine to make, not someone elses. We have laws governing our society because we need to have consequences for behavior that is disruptive to everyone being able to live safely and without threat of someone taking their material things or their life. We have many bumps on our road down life's pathway and we must deal with them in the best possible way that we can. I share in the belief that abortion should not be used as birth control or a procedure that is taken lightly without thoughts of consequences. But I know for a fact, that women face many issues, physical and mental, that could require that procedure to be a necessary part of the continuance of their own precious lives. What anti-choice people seem to believe is that no matter what - women should never be able to make their own decision if they are faced with an unwanted, unplanned, life-threatening pregnancy. They believe that the government should have the power to tell women that whatever the woman's circumstances, she must endeavor to carry an unwanted, unplanned, potential threat to her life, to full term, no mattter what. For those who have been influenced by the right wing rhetoric and fantastically morbid fear mongering, I hope that they will put aside those prejudicial images and think about whether women should be controlled, in each and every case, no matter what their circumstances, by the very imperfect deciders in congress.

patty: "Let us imagine a person who believes that Jews are human persons, and that the extermination of Jews is murder. Many of us will find that exercise fairly easy, because we are people of that sort ourselves. So we may as well take ourselves to be the people in question. And let us now go on to imagine that we live in a society in which the “termination” of Jews is an every-day routine procedure, a society in which public facilities are provided in every community for this operation, and one in which any citizen is free to identify and denounce Jews and to arrange for their arrest and termination. In that imaginary society, many of us will know people who have themselves participated in these procedures, many of us will drive past the termination centers daily on our way to work, we can often see the smoke rising gently in the late afternoon sky, and so on. And now imagine that someone tells us that if we happen to believe that Jews are human beings then that's O.K., we needn't fear any coercion, nobody requires us to participate in the termination procedure ourselves. We need not work in the gas chamber, we don't have to denounce a Jew, and so on. We can simply mind our own business, walk quietly past the well-trimmed lawns, and (of course) pay our taxes." For the love of God, patty, please think twice before using this kind of language and these kinds of analogies. Do you have any concept of how repulsive and insulting and inappropriate your post is? It is amazing to know what lengths anti-choice folks will go in order to shock people in an effort to influence their thinking regarding abortion. It is no different than the kinds of posts we have seen before about people of color and slavery. Do you people have no conscience? No dignity? No feelings for people other than that potential human being in some female's womb? It is sickening the depths to which you will sink to turn people off to a serious discussion on this debate - particularly when you are losing.

patty: "Whether it is spoken for or against in the bible is irrelevent. Many people believe, for whatever reason, that it is wrong and therefore should be banned. Just like they believe marajuana smoking is wrong, and just like they believe sibling marriage is wrong. Hey, Why not marry your brother or sister? Some believe it is okay. Whose to say you can't? So, you see, the people get their morals from somewhere." You equate smoking marijuana and sibling marriage to abortion? Those are unbelievable analogies.

The fact is, you have no right to be there no matter how strongly you feel that God has assigned you the task of saving unborn babies by controlling the mother. Leave the control to God. You have neither the right nor the grace of God to have that kind of power over others.

I do get tired of people complaining about the poor unfortunates who wear Nike shoes, buy IPods and buy junk food and cigarettes with all the government money they rake in. To hear them tell it, there is nobody who receives assistance who needs it or deserves it. They are all on the public dole and they're healthy, strong individuals who are just lazy bastards who won't work. If I thought they actually monitored these programs and knew what they were talking about, it wouldn't be irritating at all. But it feels like perhaps they are repeating the rhetoric that constantly gets recirculated by the whiners who resent anybody getting a dime from any government program. I suppose if I hadn't heard the same arguments my whole life, which is considerable, I might not be so skeptic about their knowledge of the true status of public assistance recipients.

Michele, I totally understand your feelings about welfare. I don't know anybody who doesn't hate paying taxes. I don't know anybody who doesn't feel the unfairness of working hard and having to give a chunk of their paycheck to the government to oversee the well being of our country. Especially if it means that while we're working hard and paying taxes, the people who benefit directly are not working hard to better themselves and making an effort to get off any assistance. I feel that way too. Who doesn't? But this is America and we don't let people starve. We don't let them perish from neglect and the lack of medical care. We don't ignore our children when they are without food. We don't want people living on the streets like they do en masse in places like India. Sure we make mistakes and allow some people who do not need help, to get it. But better that than children dying from disease and forced prostitution or a life of begging on the streets. As for the defense budget in this country. I am a strong proponent of a healthy defense. I believe that is what keeps us safe. But how much defense makes sense? How much of the weaponry that we purchase is actually nessary and how much is designed to line the pockets of large defense contractor's CEO's and lining the pockets of the congressmen who vote for those programs? We should put things into perspective. I don't want to waste money giving out aide to people who can provide for themselves, but are too lazy. But I have a far bigger problem with fantistically wealthy men who take advantage of us taxpayers by building programs and munitions that we don't need simply for the purpose of making themselves personally extremely wealthy. Those monies spent by our government and paid for with our hard work are obscene and our country gains nothing from it.

Oh patty, what we need from a president falls exactly into the category of inspiring people to do better in our country. What we don't need from a president is fear mongering and a total lack of regard for people who aren't wealthy, not giving them any incentives or encouragement. We need a leader - not a dictator.

I haven't attacked you, Michelle. I merely made an observation. How do you justify the money we've spent in Iraq?

Michelle: "We do need defense programs, I do believe that too much money is being wasted there also. I would rather see more money go to our troops and families then toilet seats." Huh? you kind of had me beliving you might have some peculiar knowledge about government programs and then you come up with that. Just keep bellyaching about welfare... it is so incredibly genius to do that.

There is no country threatning you bodily harm. There is a dangerous faction of terrorists that would like nothing better than to kill you. The war has not and will not prevent it. And you are at far greater risk from our own home-grown terrorists than from Muslim terrorists. These wars are a diversion. While they make you feel like your government is protecting you from terrorists, the wars are not getting the job done. And no country has declare war on us so there is absolutely no reason for us to have declared war on them and drop our bombs on their people.

C'sM: you are right on target!!! patty, I believe that our President would like nothing better than to get people busy doing constructive work in rebuilding America. Welfare recipients as well as people like you and me. Perhaps we could give up the time we spend at lap band talk to accomplish something physically worthwhile in our respective communities. It would get us off our fat asses and that would certainly beautify our surroundings, eh?