BJean

Bob, sounds like you've made your LB decision and that you are well-informed! I wish you all the best. Our health is the most important thing and you're seeking to improve your odds and that is a very good thing. As for Joe the Plumber... that was such a giant fiasco, that most people saw through. But the disturbing part was that people at the top of the Republican party chose to embrace him and his ridiculous arguments. I learned later that he was a regular on a talk show where he was bellyaching about just about every topic that the radio personality brought forth. He is a crack pot. He lied. The Republicans adored him and made them a big part of their campaign. Need we say more?

One of the most important reasons why the Pilgrims came to America was to escape from religious persecution. The founding fathers were well aware of the problems with a theocracy and so they very carefully crafted our founding documents to make sure that everyone is free to believe whatever they wish and to worship any god they choose or to not worship any diety at all. For you to continually repeat, ad nauseum, that this is a Christian nation is factually incorrect. You usually follow up with a disclaimer, of sorts, that states that 85% of Americans are Christian in an effort to prove that you are right. Which, by the way, I would agrue with because there are so many "christians" who do not practice religion at all, but who are uncomfortable not owning up to that on any poll. But even if that number is close to being correct, it in no way makes us a Christian nation. A Christian nation would be a theocratic nation wherein our laws are totally governed by Biblical standards. Our laws have been repeatedly, over our history, proven to not be constructed according to the Bible. You are being offensive by continuing to argue that we are "a Christian nation" when so many people have posted solid evidence to the contrary. If you want to say that the majority of Americans believe themselves to be Christian, I doubt if anyone would argue with you. As it is, you keep saying that America is a "Christian nation." Give it up already. You are wrong.

If you don't recognize them without my help, that explains a lot.

TN_Girl, I get it and I agree wholeheartedly.

Kat, good one. Btw, I believe that there are probably plenty of people who read patty's posts and agree with her wholeheartedly but do not want to join the fray and risk confrontation with those who might argue with them. Some people take debate personally and find it totally distasteful. Very understandable. But for many of us it is a great outlet - especially since we are sometimes frustrated with what we read here or what we observe on television, radio or internet.

Single payer would be better than what we have, but I'm with Obama - a wonderful universal health care plan would be fabulous for America. So many Americans believe the negative hype about universal health care instead of understanding how great it could be. What a shame.

Yep and they don't let any facts get in the way of repeating those buzz words and phrases over and over. I don't understand how middle class Americans can support the insurance companies like they do Middle class Americans have all the evidence before them, including years of experience with insurance companies controlling the health care system in this country, yet many of them have jumped on the anti health care change bandwagon. It is to their detriment and they are still repeating the buzz words and phrases. I gotta give it to the Republicans. They know how to use fear, intimidation, false accusations, buzz words and misrepresentations to influence Americans. But for the life of me I can't understand why some Americans don't seem to be aware of it. Well I guess to answer that, one must remember that there are Americans who think that the Bush Administration took over AFTER 9/11. Scary, ain't it?

I think I bring emotion to the table. You are great at posting facts. And it is very impressive.

Excellent post, Cleo'sM!!! The Fox media rehtoric was plain to see.

She has gone so far as to say that this country is going to fail if we don't embrace our Christian heritage and do what she says the Bible tells us - abide by God's teachings. And she's also said that unless we become "born again" we are going to hell. No discussion on that. She knows this for a fact. She posts some scary stuff.

And Bob, when your doc told you that you're one of the healthiest people seeking the band, is he talking about your weight? If you don't have a lot to lose, try to focus on being healthy - not losing weight. The band is a pretty drastic step if you can be healthy without it. But I no longer believe in dieting. It never works forever. Eating healthy is what works. And getting your motor running - increasing the rate of your metabolism - is what will help you become healthy, wealthy and wise. I added those last two because they sound good. :-)

Didn't mean to scare you. Just wanted to encourage you to read everything you can get your hands on and talk to some people in your area who have had the band and even those who have had problems with their band. You just need to go into it with all the information you need to make the best decision for YOU. When I decided I wanted the band, all I read about or allowed myself to read, were the glowing reports of huge weight losses and people saying it was the best thing they ever did. If there was one hint of negativity, even from my doctor's office, I totally shut my mind to it. My regular doctor told me not to do it, but I thought he was just enjoying treating me for all the side effects from obesity. How's that for stupidity on my part! There is an entire website for people who have had the band and due to some pretty horrendous side effects from the band, they're either having them taken out or having them taken out and getting some other bariatric surgery, like the sleeve. You don't have to go far to read some glowing reports here at LBT too. Some people think of their band as their best friend. A lot of people have had life-changing success and are at or below their goal weight because of the help that the band gave them. So I was only trying to encourage you to learn all you can so that you won't have any surprises. Know that you will still have to do the work of dieting and exercising to make the band work for you. No one claims that it is a magic bullet to shoot the fat off your body. Everyone agrees that it takes some hard work and determination to get the job done. And those were some of the things that I closed my mind to. Best of luck to you on your road to health and well-being! I have enjoyed reading your posts, by the way. You make some good points.

Yay Corliss! I forgot to mention you and Cleo'sMom when I bragged on people's posts. You both sound like very bright and aware women. You bring so much to the table. I love your posts!!!

tdsfl1 - thank you. I'm all about you and rodriguez's posts!

The only way they can make a case for controlling women's choice is by convincing people that a fertilized egg can scream and feels pain and they use the words "butchered" and "brain sucked out" and graphic materials even though they are inaccurate in many cases, to make women feel guilty enough to allow the government to make the decision for them. It's just plain crazy and outrageous. And we can't shut up about how crazy and outrageous it is because fear and guilt are very powerful emotions.

Lb, I've even heard people justify war by saying that the military people WANT to go to war. And some who say: Hey, they knew what they were getting into when they joined up! And you shake your head in disbelief because it doesn't seem possible in this day of high speed internet, cable television and the extent to which people are exposed to world events, that they can stick to such ignorant thoughts and words. But then you can't get away from the fact that they think it is patriotic to go to war and that men and women dying for our "freedom" is the righteous American way... because people like Dick Cheney, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the like tell them it's that way every day. And after all, if they say it on the radio and television, it must be true, right? God help us.

patty, please do not quote people without showing who you are quoting. Sometimes people attribute a post to someone who hasn't written it. I do not think that is right or fair and I don't believe you do it on purpose. I don't imagine you even realize that you've done it. But we would really appreciate it if you would be sure to include who made the original post that you're quoting.

Thank you C'sM. And thanks for your post regarding our founding fathers intent with regard to establishing a country that is not a theocratic one.

patty: "We really need a code of Christian principles to follow." YOU need a code of Christian principles to follow. Why do you need it so much? I do not know. But I do allow that you need it and see that you can't understand why others do not. In fact, you are so unable to understand it, you will not concede the fact that other humans do not need Christian principles in order to be fine, upstanding, moralistic human beings. And what has been revealed to us by the extremist fundamentalist "Christians" is that some people who espouse Christian principles do not always follow those Christian principles with their behavior or in their hearts. Just because someone says they follow Christian principles does not mean that you can trust them to be honest or good. In fact often in business, in my neck of the woods, businesses that advertise that they are a "a Christian based business" are some of the least reliable and trustworthy.

patty: "...liberals march and scream over the slaughter of baby seals in Newfoundland, but they can't squeeze out a single tear for the butchered babies who can't even raise a whimper of protest against their slaughter." And why are these little potential creatures unable to squeeze out a whimper of protest against their slaughter? Because they are not babies yet. Baby seals are able to scream because they are real baby seals.

TN_Girl: You and I agree then on that very basic belief that we all are free to read and interpret the Bible as best we can and that our beliefs are our own and just as valid as anyone else's. My irritation comes from the holier-than-thou attitude that patty takes in her posts a lot of the time. I probably should not have said what I did, but I stand by it nonetheless. Thanks for your post. I respect what you said very much.

And patty has said repeatedly in this thread and in many others that she knows the Bible and God and that she is a sinner but that it is all right because she believes in the Bible and God and therefore she is going to heaven, no matter what she does. She goes on to say that we are wrong, wrong, wrong because she thinks that liberals have their own moral compass and it has nothing to do with God and therefore we are foolish. Now personally, I think THAT is wrong and if I take umbrage to it, I believe that is my right. I know that all liberals are not Christians as I also know that many of them absolutely are. I believe I have characterized patty's stance and those of the Company's properly, particularly if it is taken in the context of this discussion. If you personally feel insulted, that's your choice. I wasn't talking about you and if you will read the earlier posts that lead to my statement, perhaps you will understand better why I made it. If not, then stand by your post and condemn me because you think I am someone who doesn't have as pure a moral compass as you and therefore everything I believe is wrong.

Well my interpretation of "foolishness" obviously does not match with yours. Foolishness means: despicable, ridiculous, absurd, unwise, shallow, brainless, incautious and weak-minded. I honestly do not believe that God laughs at people who are those things. He also tell us that we shouldn't call people fools because it is the worst insult. I don't think he meant that in a funny way.

Oh and by the way, COST was not even mentioned in the portion of the Gallup poll you offered as evidence in your argument. So it is unclear how you might have come up with that claim.

In insurance Coverage means: all the risks covered by an insurance policy. So the 70% of people who were asked that question said that they think their insurance company provides excellent or good coverage of medical costs when they require medical treatment. Quality in health care speaks to the quality of medical care a person receives when they need treatment. The question we are discussing is whether people like the system of health care we have in America. System refers to the regular, orderly way of doing something. So your report of Gallup's survey does not reveal how people feel about the system because health care reform is an effort to change the system not the quality of health care. How people feel about their medical treatment enters into the discussion if changing it affects the system, but the quality of medical care in America has been accepted as being one of the best in the world. By the same token, whether or not we are happy with the coverage our insurance company is willing to pay for also can affect the system, but just because 70% of the people polled are happy with their coverage, doesn't mean that those without insurance are considered in the poll and those people don't even have our great medical care available to them unless they go to an emergency room - and the quality of health care there is not considered the barometer for determining whether Americans have the best health care. You really have to be careful interpreting polls and trying to use them in your arguments. They can be very misleading and your argument falls flat when your debate opponents point out the fallacy of the interpretation.