BJean

Sharon, I agree with you totally. It isn't that we believe that abortion is a good thing or a decision to be made lightly. It is that the government just cannot judge each case separately and fairly. The government can only make a blanket law that applies to everyone, no matter what. It just can't work that way.

Seriously patty, what am I talking about? Just drop it. Pretend I didn't say anything. There's no way that I can explain so that you could understand. The denial and hypricisy is too deeply embedded in your mind and in your rethoric.

patty on prayers: "They move God to intervene in the everyday experiences of life on this earth. So, when Hummingbird prayed the other day, God heard and He moved. I believe that." I really don't think it makes any sense to say on the one hand that God doesn't control the bad things that happen and on the other to say that he intervenes. I know your arguments, but I respectfully disagree. I've known so many really good Christians who have faithfully followed His teachings and have prayed fervently for something that would be fair and just if He answered them. They've even employed the assistance of their church and other churches - they've had prayer groups, they've enlisted everyone they know and those people have asked everyone they know to pray for a righteous cause and yet there was no intervention. God just didn't see fit to answer all those fervent prayers. And what of the person across the street who needs the exact same thing to happen in their lives (healing of a loved one, for instance) and they don't pray and yet the sick person is healed. And what of the person who prays to God that their team win a Gold Medal in the olymics... and the other team is praying for God to intervene and let them win? Well whichever team wins, their prayers were answered. When a person has prayed for help in anything and the very thing happened that they prayed for, they believe that God intervened and answered their prayers. When the opposite happens, the answer is that God has his own plan. He has a reason for refusing to intervene. Sorry, you just have to understand that God wanted that person to die for whatever reason He may have. This is not in the form of a quesstion. I'm not asking you to debate this with me. I know your arguments. I am telling you that it makes absolutely no sense. You cannot justify everything that doesn't validate your religious beliefs and then fervently embrace the outcome as proof that prayer works when it appears that your prayers were answered. I believe that prayer works for us because we repeat positive thoughts that cause US to get positive results. It is up to us to have goodness come into our lives. We shouldn't give God false credit and we shouldn't give Him false blame.

Good for you HummingBird. You sound like a very nice person.

patty, first you say: "Just thought I'd mention that I never went to Sunday school either. I found God when I was 25 years old. So there goes that "indoctrinated" theory." But I guess you were exaggerating because then you admitted: "my mom sent us occasionally to catechism when I was a child, cause she was catholic, but we were not taught anything about that faith at our home. When I say occasionally, I can remember going one school year on wednesdays after school for an hour. That's about it. I went to church 3 or 4 times as a child, cause my mom sent us with my older sister to get us out of the house so she could relax. Other than that, I never went to any church. I got married in the catholic church because that's the church my mom claimed as hers. I baptised my first 2 sons there also. (when you are a catholic christian, most of them that I knew, only used the church to do what they needed to do.) Going to catechism counts in the indoctrination process. I'm surprised you don't realize that. In order for you to get married in the Catholic Church, you attended some sessions - they were called instructions - prior to your wedding, unless your Catholic church was completely out of the ordinary. That counts for something when one thinks of having been indoctrinated. And as for your last little comment, your Catholic church must REALLY have been out of the ordinary. Because if your "Catholic Christian" friends simply "used the church to "do what they needed to do" it was unlike any Catholic Church I've ever attended. And I have attended Catholic Churches all over the United States. By the way, what in the world is a Catholic Christian?

geez patty, there is no end to your denials and inability to take responsibility for what you've posted! In every area where you post, your hyprocrisy is staggering. I know that hypocrisy seems to be the word du jour, but honestly you give new meaning to it. One can't help but point at it in mouth-dropping amazement.

Does anybody remember what I posted after patty posted the cartoon? I said that there are people who are so ignorant they don't even realize how bigoted they are. In fact, they will rail against it and tell you that they have a family member or best friend who is an African American and I forgot to add that they will tell you that they don't see anything racist in a cartoon like that and that for those reasons, they're not racist. Thanks patty, you made my case for me - in spades.

It seems likely that the poster doesn't understand the obvious bigotry of the cartoon. To some of us that seems almost unimaginable, but to some people who have a deeply ingrained racial bias, they are not even aware that they are bigots. In fact, some will even tell you that they have friends who are black. Or family members... proving that they aren't biased, right?

patty, that is a highly offensive cartoon. You should be ashamed of yourself.

phil: They don't want to open up that can of worms that will only serve to cloud the debate further. That would be playing into their hands. The Republicans have only criticized (and without merit) ridiculed and made outlandish claims in the heath care debate. None has come up with a better plan. None has put forth something viable that we can seriously consider. They're obstructionists at the expense of middle class Americans. They should be ignored and the people who do care about America should get on with fixing this mess.

patty: "Since God created the Heavens and the Earth, I believe He alone is quite capable of handling it without my energy input or Al Gores. God's Earth doesn't need to be "saved" from anything! It's the people who need to be saved." As an inhabitant of this earth, we all owe it to ourselves and those who come after us to have a conscience and responsibility to treat our environment with love and respect. The bad people aren't the Al Gores who are attempting to preserve the earth's pristine environment. The bad people are those whose motivation is greed; those who pollute and defile the earth for us and our children simply to line their pockets with gold are the ones you should put down. Not the other way around. Not if you love and respect God's creation.

To my mind, there is a difference between right wing and right wing extremists. There is a difference between a person who is religious and one who espouses fundamentalist and extreme religious viewpoints. That is true with Christianity as well as the Muslim religion and other religions throughout the world. When any group, religous or not, goes to extremes and becomes rabid and/or a threat to anyone who disagrees with their beliefs, they are capable of harm, both verbal and physical. That makes them dangerous. I have not called you dangerous. In fact, when I have mentioned the words extremist, fundamentalist, etc., I have generally used it in the context of behavior or thinking. I don't believe that I have said that is actually who you are. It is behavior and beliefs that I've been addressing. I do this because of what I have observed. Either by the words you and others post or things that I see in our society, plus things that I have been exposed to in my lifetime that knit it all together to form the big picture. You are willing to lay out your beliefs and your thoughts here at LBT patty and that opens you up for a dialogue and discussion and even debate since you post at Rs&Rs. For example, you have compartmentalized our president so much as to say he wants socialism for this country. That deserves to be rebutted in kind, if that is what we believe. You can take others' comments as personal or not. That's your choice, just as it is mine. But most of us are simply stating our beliefs, just like you. And we are just as credible as you and our interpretation of the Bible and what we believe God intends is just as valid as what you espouse. You know you're right. I know I'm right. I endeavor to lead you out of darkness and I suppose that's what you think you're doing. And in the end, we will both know which of us had it more right. I have the utmost confidence that I will be redeemed. And I hope you will be too.

Maybe you never went to Sunday School but I am very surprised that you never went to church before the age of 25. That's very interesting, patty.

You've often declared that without the Bible and a belief in God, man would have no moral compass. Here's a link (I know, I usually do not post links, but this one is some alternative reading for you to consider.) Josephson Institute of Ethics: The Six Pillars of Character: Trustworthiness, Respect, Responsibility, Fairness, Caring, Citizenship

Well I believe you just made their point, phil.

Good! You seem to be a very open-minded person from your last post. That is all I'm suggesting that we try to be. I will add that if you do not feel the least bit threatened by extremists who do try to force their personal beliefs down down your throat, then you are a someone with very strong personal convictions. It sounds like you must be able to listen to all sides and then make your decisions in life. That is excellent.

I posted this on another thread but I guess maybe it fits on this thread even more: That's the irony of the right wing extremist message to the world. They want us to believe that they are righteous people because they believe they know the exact intentions of God and the Bible, but they are openly scornful of people with whom they do not agree. These holier than thou self-important fundamentalists often miss the message of Jesus which was love, tolerance, forgiveness, generosity of spirit and the acceptance of all mankind. Many of them are angry, bigoted, mean-spirited and willing to do harm to others. It is such a strange dichotomy, oddly real and unreal thinking. And some of them have a death grip on the Republican party.

That's the irony of the right wing extremist message to the world. They want us to believe that they are righteous people because they believe they know the exact intentions of God and the Bible, but they are openly scornful of people whom they do not agree with. These holier than thou self-important fundamentalists often miss the message of Jesus which was love, tolerance, forgiveness, generosity of spirit and the acceptance of all mankind. Many of them are angry, bigoted, mean-spirited and willing to do harm to others. It is such a strange dichotomy, oddly real and unreal thinking. And some of them have a death grip on the Republican party.

Lb, that was very cool.

It is normal to want to blame someone or something when we have really bad experiences or we see someone we love suffer. But there are not always answers and that is difficult. My DD has lost 2 babies, one died in utero at full term and one at 3 months. For all the testing and research and praying for an answer, there is none. When you think about mother nature and science and the universe, you just have to realize that life isn't perfect. And we just have to make the best of it. We play the hand that is dealt to us. I hope rodriguez, that you and your baby girl are doing well.

No, actually those 3 things stop health care reform, not fix it. Which is their goal.

sam: "Is it different or ok for you to tell us what not to believe? You claim these people are close minded to what out there or your beliefs. Aren't you being close minded to theirs?" I am not telling anyone what to believe at all. I am merely hoping that people will be open to expanding their spirituality. And I am not being closed minded at all. I have experienced what they've said that they believe. I too have believed it. I am not at all saying that anyone should not believe whatever they choose or whatever fulfills their own needs. Some others, on the other hand, have said that if we do not share their beliefs, we are going to hell. They've said that we are immoral if we don't share their beliefs on homosexuality, on a woman's right to choose, on even whether the Bible is in fact the unedited word of God. You have misinterpreted my posts absolutely. I do not claim to have any authority over others' behavior or beliefs. I do not tell people that they are going to hell if they don't believe as I do. What I have said is that one should be open to further expansion of one's spirituality beyond the conventional lessons we learned in Sunday school. I don't understand how anyone can feel threatened by that.

Well yes, in the past it sure has worked for them and the Democrats have been quite remiss in selling their agenda. However, I have a feeling that the Republicans have finally gone too far with their irrational public displays and biased media reports and Americans are becoming wise to them. I hope!

Love the remarks from Reg Henry, Cleo's.

Cleo's: I think that the reason you are so focused on the hyprocisy of Republican politics is because as you've noted above, they get a lot of support from middle America by saying that they hate taxes, hate big government, etc. They are in fact, constantly saying that they hate anything that they think will make them popular with voters. Nevermind that their actions belie their words. In fact, their behavior is quite different from their talk. That's hyprocrisy. And now they are screaming quite loudly about the president and "his" trillion dollar deficit, and all the other things that they think will influence the voters. And the irony and hyprocrisy of it is that they created the war in Iraq. And they know that we have to eventually pay for it. The way they play that game to their advantage is to force the Democrats to on take the responsibility of solving the problem (balancing the budget and paying off the debt) and in so doing the Democrats will undoubtedly have to raise taxes. Republicans love that because it allows them to scream and holler about how awful big government and higher taxes are which diverts the attention away from their causing the out of control deficit in the first place. And to add insult to injury, when they are in control they make sure that the tax incentives and breaks go to the richest Americans. So what has happened is that they have caused a hugely significant part of the deficit and they want us middle class Americans to pay for it, instead of the wealthy paying their fair share. So they shout the Democrats down and make accusations and misrepresentations that cause people who are clueless to believe that the Republicans are against taxes and big government and they had no part in making the government big or causing the horrific deficit. This is not something new. It is just new to some people who haven't historically experienced it. Or people who believe that the Republicans do what they say they stand for. The Republicans have been doing this for decades. Anybody who buys it is either benefitting from it or too stupid to understand what's going on. You have a more intellectual and sohpisticated way of saying what I did but sometimes people are too dumb to understand big words and real numbers. Some people only comprehend Joe-the-Plumber and Sarah-Palin-speak. Wink, wink... you betcha.