BJean

Well said, Leigha. And I too am very sorry to hear that your mom is having health problems. It's very tough to see your parents go through hospitalizations and procedures. We know that they can't live forever, but we want the time they have here on earth to be the healthiest and happiest they can have. It's times like this that we really appreciate good health care providers! Hope she has great nurses and doctors at her side. She's lucky to have such a caring and attentive daughter.

Hey, sure you belong on this thread! Certainly as much as anyone else does. If it is fun for you to vent occasionally, it's a good thing. If it just upsets you then bah! pass it by. Some of us enjoy ranting and raving and reading the opinions of others - even when we disagree. I have learned a lot here. I do not take it personally when someone disagrees with me. We all have different backgrounds, different experiences and different outlooks on life. We sometimes learn more from people we disagree with. At least it makes us think. And as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Missy: "Once a person gets beyond the local they have already sold out to far too many people. So, I guess my lack of respect for politicians in general colors my opinion, also." I believe that often the locals are corrupt too. And it is definitely frustrating, I agree. And we have a system in Washington that actually makes it practically unavoidable for our politicans. The lobbyists have far too much power and too direct access to Congress. Got any ideas of how it's ever going to change? Getting rid of the current folks (at least at the national level) won't solve a thing. It's the system that has to change and they are in charge of it so how's that going to make it happen? I still think it is valuable (although yes, frustrating) for us to get informed and to try to get our representatives to actually represent us and our needs. Letters to congress actually do get read and counted and answered by their staff.

MissyMS, btw, I noticed that you were banded in Decmeber and you've lost over 50 lbs!!! That's fantastic. Congratulations!!!! Way to go.

So you're saying that we should not call people out when we know that they've lied? I mean on either side. We should just throw up our hands and say, well the other side does it so it's acceptable for us to lie? That's b.s. If you know of a Democrat that has lied, post it, yell about it, rant and rave about it. We welcome it. We don't want that from any of our elected officials. But if you think that the Democrats use lies, fear, misstatements and misrepresentations to get their agenda passed, to the extent that the Republicans do, I will take issue with that because it just isn't true. Everybody in the world lies. But that don't make it right.

Heard the other day that the higher ups in Iraq have asked Blackwater to leave. The people who complain about taxes should be really steamed that the previous administration committed us to Iraq and that those guys you mentioned, Cheney, et. al., made billions in OUR tax dollars. Because who else is going to pay for that war? This must be what it feels like to be raped and have the rapist tell you it was for your own good.

Sadly Leigha, I have found that to be the case with most of my Republican friends. Usually when something like that happens they don't get up and leave though. They change the subject and say something like, "well, Obama wants to just keep spending, spending, spending until our children will be burdened with such a huge deficit they'll never get out of debt!" Or, "Obama wants to tax companies so much that it will put the small businessman out of business!" Or, "Obama wants the government to pay for abortions!" Or any number of other talking points and buzz words that Limbaugh, Beck and Rupert Murdoch have drilled into their pretty little heads. And we have congressmen getting up and saying those things too when they have evidence to the contrary in front of their faces. It isn't that they don't know what they're doing. It's that their votes have been bought and paid for.* Only Americans who believe their rethoric are clueless. *(Except in the case of that Stupak dude who wants to make abortion an issue on the back of health care legislation - I think he's probably just a die hard Catholic trying to make points with the Pope.)

Well that's your opinion, of course. If we were smart and we wanted an evil dictator out of the picture we should get one of your CIA operatives to take him out with one bullet. It is terribly wrong what we've done in Iraq to our own servicemen and women. And that's before you tally up the numbers of innocent people in that country, plus the infrastructure and everything else. When did Americans (read you and me) sign up to be citizens of a country that is willing to do what we did in Iraq? What we did in Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom. Since when has America become the land of the war mongering, home of the aggressors? I can tell you when. When some of our big shot politicians became so greedy and so hateful that they decided to manipulate congress and lie to Americans so they could do what their hearts lusted after - waging war on a middle eastern country that they thought they could whip. How many people - real lives - has that war caused? How many people are maimed for life? How many lives have forever been altered because of Dick Cheney's greed, Carl Rove's greed and George W. Bush's compliance? Do you really think that Iraq was about terrorists, bob? Yes? Well goody, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Right....sure... uh huh... honest to pete, you are beginning to crack me up!

To add to that, torture reminds me of child abuse. We get angry with a child. He or she has done something that we feel is worthy of punishment. We want them to tell us why they did it. We want them to say they were wrong and that they will never do it again. Some people believe that hitting a child will get the results and information that they believe they should have. The abuser is angry and they have the power to abuse. They get some satisfaction in punishing a child that has done something he or she shouldn't have done. They think that the abuse is justified. They think the abuse will get the best results. The problem is, the positive results they get are simply surface reactions on the part of the child. The child is doing or saying whatever is needed to survive the abuse. On the outside, they act like they've learned a lesson. On the inside, they seethe, they hate and they want revenge. When they become an adult in a position of power over a child - they get their revenge. They take it out on a child just like their parent did on them. It doesn't produce better people. It inflicts pain and hate and resentment and bitterness and a need for revenge. Abuse is an ignorant deed committed by an ignorant person.

bob, you're right on about polls and politics in America and the rest. Except I want to take a little exception with your example using torture. I don't believe that anyone with any sense or knowledge about torture would say yes, they believe in torture. First of all, we readily admit that when you torture someone it nearly always does cause the detainee to give up information. The problem is that it is not trustworthy or truthful information. They just want to survive the torture and will tell their captors anything they think will save their life. Second, as a nation we decided a long time ago that we did not want to be the kind of people who use torture EVER. We signed an aggreement to that effect and if we expect our men and women who become prisoners of other countries to abide by that rule, then we must stand up and treat people (ALL people) humanely, as we have promised to do. So I hope that Americans will be smart enough and have enough humanity that they will never decide that torture is acceptable. Under any circumstances. If we choose to torture people we will have become like the animals we are fighting.

the swiftboating of America Oh no you did not!!! The swiftboating of America??? Perpetrated by Democrats? Are you that brainwashed and out of touch with reality? Are you nuts? Do you have a clue at all about the Swiftboat campaign???? OMG!!!!!!!!

airscus, "Also fox regularly apologizes for their mistakes. Not something you hear from many liberal "news" agencies." I respectfully disagree. They lie and when they are exposed, they make stuff up to divert attention away from the lie that they've made up. This has a lot to do with our differing political views. You seem to believe that everybody but Fox is lying. I believe that everybody else usually has it right and Fox (and Limbaugh) are liars and are trying their dead level best to keep people like you lapping it up like milk by a kitten. You've given your opinion. Now I've given you mine.

airscus I see your point. Are you equally outraged by all the mistruths, misrepresentations and outright lies that are put out on a daily basis by Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and a whole host of folks at FOX News? Just wondering...

Oops, my bad. I posted before I saw yours, above. So you're just saying that because there were a couple of votes discrepcancy in the reporting that the news organizations mentioned are the worst mixture of both liars and bypocrites. HUH? Why is that? Because at some point a couple of votes were not reported on? Or what exactly makes these organizations the "worst mixture of liars and hypocrites? I am sorry I just don't understand.

ariscus, what is your point? You've posted a couple of accusatory comments, but to what end? Are you saying the Republicans DID vote for it and Cleo's got that part wrong? Or are you saying that because some Democrats didn't support it, that exonerates the Reublicans who also didn't? OR are you saying that the bill shouldn't have any support whatsoever? Please explain yourself. I'm very interested in what is motivating you.

loserb, I'm afraid you're right. You'd have thought with the Democrats otaining the office of the president and the majorities in house and senate, there would be no question that we could make real progress. But it's politics as usual in Washington. Forget reaching across the aisle. Forget honesty in the media. Forget everyone coming together to make a difference. Play dirty politics. Be obstructionists. Continue to pander to corporate America. I wish I were surprised.

Yeah, how true, how true.

The scripture quoted was: "A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue. Proverbs 11:12" You're doing the deriding here. As usual you conveniently miss the point. You bring up agreeing with someone as being the necessity for speaking, according to the scripture. Are you being intentionally obtuse or is it that you just have no clue how to debate?

patty that's right up there with getting one's nightie in a knot over the president speaking to school children to encourage them to do well with their studies. Geez. Whatever.

"...voters are less tolerant of congressional gridlock. Fifty-seven percent (57%) now see passing good legislation as a more important role for Congress than preventing bad legislation from becoming law." Hmmmm. Food for thought, patty?

Polls are so manipulatable (my own new word.) As we all know, the way questions are phrased in a poll has everything to do with the outcome. So those disclaimers are very important to pay attention to. Your valentine's day observation is an example of how easily assumptions are made based on incomplete information. But some people who love to accuse everyone of disagreeing with infomation they don't like, is quick to agree with information that they do like, whether there is any proof that the information is good or not. Something about the pot calling the kettle black... opps, my bad. I said black.

patty declares: "Maybe Affirmative Action shouldn't be applied to picking presidents after all." Once again, your bigotry rears its' ugly head. Are you seriously going to try to defend this statement? What a shallow, ignorant, racist thing to say. You can't be shamed, you have no clue, do you?

Sorry I was confused about your locale. I think a lot of people are wanting to talk about the health care situation. And everytime it comes up around me, people all agree that what we have is a mess and it needs to be changed drastically. I haven't talked to anyone who is happy with our system. There is one story after another about problems that people have had to deal with when they've needed health care and have been denied treatment or certain doctors or having to take generic meds that are actually sometimes quite different in composition than the name brand drug. Unfortunately I do not think that Washington hears about all the problems and disatisfaction from their constituents. You're smart to be so involved. It's the only power we have and our votes aren't for sale like some of our congressmen's votes are.

Did she want to have a serious discussion or just comment on how few and far between we are? Are you in Texas or am I making that up? I'm in north central Texas.